Turning a friend into a girlfriend

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  • #76
Evo
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I think the effects of alcohol may be taken more seriously in the US than in the UK. I also have to agree with SA, if the woman has been drinking, even moderately, her judgement would be considered impaired here. There are some people than can get completely looped after a single drink. Don't forget what an insanely litigious society we have here.
 
  • #77
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Judging from the Deliah show, it looks like lots of people seem to end up in the OP position like girl have this friend who already have a girlfriend (just listened to this call). Either they play the same thing over and over again or it is just too common.
 
  • #78
So what? That is a decision for her to make. I find it incredibly difficult to believe that what you say is true, namely, that having consumed one drink will (legally) render a woman unable to consent. If this is true, then surely it would be illegal to drive a car having consumed any amount of alcohol, yet there is a legal blood alcohol limit for being in control of a motor vehicle.

Personally, I think it's insulting to women to say that they are unable to make an informed decision, or that women are willing to cry "rape" any time they've consumed a few drinks. Worse still is the insinuation that men who go for a few drinks with a woman which turns into a 'romantic' situation are creatures preying on vulnerable women. This goes back to the stoneage way of thinking that women are not capable of making any decisions on their own.

As for the actual "testimony" you present, it's nonsense. If it were considered bad form, then surely any form of dating in a restaurant or bar is even worse form, since the aim is for strangers to meet people with a view to start a romantic relationship. This situation is going for a drink with a close friend, to a relaxed environment, to try and tell her his feelings. If something happens, then fine, but it hardly looks from the outside like "date rape".
You can, in fact, be arrested for driving under the influence after a single drink. If the officer decides that the one drink impaired you then off you go to jail and its your word against his/hers. Same thing in our scenario. They say they were impaired, its your word against theirs. That's certainly an extreme scenario but I have been dumbfounded myself to find that a female friend of mine of several years had started telling people I had forced myself on her when we had never even had sex. People do crazy and stupid things sometimes and sometimes you don't know someone aswell as you think you do (especially when you're young, have a crush on them, and hold them up on a pedestal).

At any rate, I agree with you in regards to the ethical and sociological implications of the the law in this regard. I am only presenting it as I understand it. If you read any articles or pamphlets for male college students in US regarding avoiding date rape charges most of them say it is best to not have intercourse at all while you or your partner are intoxicated. Seems rather unrealistic but true.
http://hubpages.com/hub/How-to-Avoid-Being-Accused-of-Date-Rape [Broken]
Point 4:

Engage in sex only if you and your partner haven't used alcohol or other substances. Even a couple of drinks can make someone unable to give his consent to sex because his judgment may be impaired. Likewise, if you have a couple of drinks, you may miss cues that he isn't interested in sex or is ready to stop.
http://www.gale.cengage.com/pdf/samples/sp736816.pdf [Broken]
And if either partner is intoxicated, sexual intercourse must not occur; reduced inhibitions do not negate responsibilities.
 
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  • #79
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From what I've heard, any amount of intoxication does technically remove the legal ability to give consent. In other words, if you take your wife of 20 years out to dinner, have a glass of wine, then have a romantic night of sex later in the evening...she could legally refer to this as an incident of rape. Obviously, this law is pretty idiotic and ignored by 99.9999% of people...except apparently TheStatutoryRApe (oh the irony).
 
  • #80
cristo
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I think the effects of alcohol may be taken more seriously in the US than in the UK. I also have to agree with SA, if the woman has been drinking, even moderately, her judgement would be considered impaired here. There are some people than can get completely looped after a single drink. Don't forget what an insanely litigious society we have here.
I don't think it's a case of people in the UK taking the effects of alcohol less seriously, I think it's a matter of being realistic. I still think it's absurd to claim that a woman is incapable of making informed decisions after one drink. To cite the drink driving argument, it's like saying automatically that after having one drink, people are incapable of driving. (To comment on tsa's point, I realise you can be arrested for driving under the influence after one drink, but there has to be visible evidence that your ability to drive was affected. Starting the "your word vs. theirs" just sounds like the beginnings of conspiracy talk to me).

Anyway, the issue on alcohol and consent is taken seriously in the UK. For example:

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23379673-details/Men+face+jail+for+rape+if+women+are+%27too+drunk%27+to+consent+in+bed+to+boost+convictions/article.do [Broken]

[An Association of Chief Police Officers report] said it was "significant" that 22 cases showed the woman had 200 milligrams of alcohol for every 100 millilitres of blood.

This level is equivalent to eight 175 milliletre pub "standard" glasses of wine, or two and a half times the drink driving limit.

...

The ACPO report said: "If one considers a social drinker, one could expect marked intoxication at levels of 200 milligrams per 100 millilitres and symptoms could include reduced inhibitions, disorientation, impaired judgement and co-ordination, drowsiness, memory loss and, at higher levels, unconsciousness."

SA is right, imo. Decisions made about relationships, made be the male or the female, shouldn't be made while under the influence of alcohol or any other substance.
But that's an opinion. I know many people who hold the opposite opinion.

From what I've heard, any amount of intoxication does technically remove the legal ability to give consent.
I don't know the legal technicalities, but I would not think that is true. In the western legal system, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Thus, the onus of the proof lies upon the prosecution to prove that consent given having consumed a couple of drinks was not valid. Unless there were external factors, I don't see such a ruling being made.
 
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  • #81
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Wow, this one got off track.

In the real world, just use some common sense. Everybody's breaking some law.
We were told in health class that according to the law, at every step of the process of sex, a man has to request specific permission to proceed (i.e., do you consent to this, do you consent to this, etc.) Unless you're dealing with a particular type of kinky girl, this is a bad way to do things.


It's not that hard to figure this stuff out.
If the thought comes up, "this seems wrong" it probably is. On the other hand, if the law seems idiotic, it probably is, and don't worry about it.
 
  • #82
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In the real world, just use some common sense. Everybody's breaking some law.
We were told in health class that according to the law, at every step of the process of sex, a man has to request specific permission to proceed (i.e., do you consent to this, do you consent to this, etc.) Unless you're dealing with a particular type of kinky girl, this is a bad way to do things.
I would think if she gives consent for sex period, she automatically gives consent to every subsequent action, within reason, until she says to stop, or makes it clear in some way for you to stop.
And the female isn't bound by the same restriction? Wouldn't she have to ask as well?
 
  • #83
(To comment on tsa's point, I realise you can be arrested for driving under the influence after one drink, but there has to be visible evidence that your ability to drive was affected. Starting the "your word vs. theirs" just sounds like the beginnings of conspiracy talk to me).
Yes, there are supposed to be visible signs that you are impaired for a police officer to arrest you for driving under the influence. That does not change the fact that it is your word against theirs. If the case goes to court all the officer does is take the stand.
In cases of date rape there is often little to no evidence. It generally is little other than the accuser's word versus the defendant's.

Cristo said:
I don't know the legal technicalities, but I would not think that is true. In the western legal system, one is presumed innocent until proven guilty. Thus, the onus of the proof lies upon the prosecution to prove that consent given having consumed a couple of drinks was not valid. Unless there were external factors, I don't see such a ruling being made.
http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/10/28/findlaw.analysis.colb.date.rape/index.html
An article on 'innocent until proven guilty' with a focus on the problem of this with regard to rape and date rape cases. Specifically, if you assume that the defendant is innocent until proven guilty then you must also assume that the accuser (an alleged victim of rape) is a liar until they prove otherwise. You may have noticed that in rape cases where the defendant alleges the intercourse was consentual there often outcries over the defense "putting the victim on trial". There are also 'rape shield' laws here that can severely restrict a defense lawyer's ability to cross examine the accuser.



At any rate... How many of you ladies here would feel uncomfortable if your friend asked you to his place, got you tipsy, then tried to make a move on you? And how many of you would feel unsure of your ability to trust your friend in the future based on such actions?
 
  • #84
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At any rate... How many of you ladies here would feel uncomfortable if your friend asked you to his place, got you tipsy, then tried to make a move on you? And how many of you would feel unsure of your ability to trust your friend in the future based on such actions?
This is the real issue. Trying to get your friend drunk or tipsy (or whatever) in order to take advantage of them - is not an act of friendship. It's a destructive, selfish, and (quite frankly) desperate act. Don't violate the trust that exists in your friendship or you will suffer the consequences (in the long run).
 
  • #85
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This is the real issue. Trying to get your friend drunk or tipsy (or whatever) in order to take advantage of them - is not an act of friendship. It's a destructive, selfish, and (quite frankly) desperate act.
I never suggested that the alcohol be used to take advantage of them. I simply suggested it because most people find the slight buzz to be pleasurable and this leads to a more enjoyable evening for everyone where things are more likely to work out favorably.
 
  • #86
Astronuc
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You've taken a comment about a male making a move on a female friend when 'tipsy' (i.e., having had a couple of drinks), and extrapolated this into some sort of date rape scenario? The definition of 'rape' is unconsented sex. Both parties having had a couple of drinks does not remove the ability of either party to consent.
Actually and legally it can. Once one reaches the legal limit, then one's judgement is impaired (legally and otherwise), and one's ability to consent is impaired (void), i.e. legally one cannot consent. Some people have impaired judgement before they reach the legal limit of alcohol in the system.

One should never take advantage of another who is drunk!
 
  • #87
cristo
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An article on 'innocent until proven guilty' with a focus on the problem of this with regard to rape and date rape cases. Specifically, if you assume that the defendant is innocent until proven guilty then you must also assume that the accuser (an alleged victim of rape) is a liar until they prove otherwise.
It's semantics, and I don't think that article really says anything new. The fact of the matter is that unless the prosecution of any case can show, beyond reasonable doubt, that a defendant is guilty, then he is legally innocent. This means proving that the alleged victim is telling the truth, and that she was incapable of consenting, or that consent was not given.
 
  • #88
cristo
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Actually and legally it can. Once one reaches the legal limit, then one's judgement is impaired (legally and otherwise), and one's ability to consent is impaired (void), i.e. legally one cannot consent. Some people have impaired judgement before they reach the legal limit of alcohol in the system.
But what is the legal limit? I'm not aware that there is one for this situation. Are you claiming that the legal driving limit should be the appropriate limit to use?


By the way, I don't like the way this discussion is heavily biased against men. If a woman is deemed incapable to give consent after consuming any alcohol, then why is a man able to give consent? Why, then, would a man be 'guilty' of 'date rape' if a couple have relations after a few drinks, and the woman would be the victim? It is perfectly plausible for a man to have relations with a women when intoxicated whom he would not have the same feelings for when sober (which essentially seems to be one of the definitions people are using).
 
  • #89
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Actually and legally it can. Once one reaches the legal limit, then one's judgement is impaired (legally and otherwise), and one's ability to consent is impaired (void), i.e. legally one cannot consent. Some people have impaired judgement before they reach the legal limit of alcohol in the system.

One should never take advantage of another who is drunk!
It's really not a logical argument.

Does this mean that people with mental disabilities should be disallowed from romantic activities at all times?

Due to the wide range of intelligence, one person's heavily impaired judgment may be much better than another person's peak judgment.

Alcohol is not the only thing that impairs judgment. Arguably, our judgment is always impaired to various degrees by all sorts of things. A recent study showed that male judgment becomes temporarily impaired while speaking to attractive women (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/h...ose-their-minds-speaking-to-pretty-women.html )

Does this mean a male should not be able to give consent to romantic relations with attractive women?

Whenever a person is distracted by something else, that impairs their judgment.

A person may at one point in time be committed to their relationship, but then when they get horny, all of a sudden those beliefs might be overshadowed by a desire for sex. The fact that people are willing to do things while horny that they would not be willing to do while not-horny is further evidence of this.

The whole premise of people having constant identities that make logical decisions is, in my opinion, severely unrealistic. Your decisions are all based on naturally released drugs that control your mood to begin with! Adrenaline, dopamine, whatever...throwing a bit of alcohol into the mix doesn't really change anything because we are ALWAYS under the influence of drugs. In fact its silly to use the word "under the influence" because that implies that we have a non-influenced state, when the reality is that all our thoughts are just the result of different chemical interactions...

Obviously, there comes a point where a person is so influenced by a drug that they are so far from their normal state that they cannot give consent. For example, when a person is in a catatonic state, or stumbling all over the place incapable of forming coherent sentences. However, a person who is still able to make conversation is still fully capable of giving consent in my opinion.
 
  • #90
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Does this mean a male should not be able to give consent to romantic relations with attractive women?
Yes.
 
  • #91
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This is the original post "I'm one of her best friends, she tells me about her boyfriends, her problems, everything, She text-messages me almost everyday. We hang out together at her place, cook together, watch dvds. I make her laugh, comfort her when she is down, whole program. I'm not ugly, either. But still we are just friends. It sucks.

She is very cute, she constantly has men chasing after her. She also has the problem becoming friendly with men since they rather would turn her into their girlfriend than becoming friends.

So just telling her, I think would not do. She sees me 100 percent as her friend.

So what to do? How can I get out of the friendship zone?"

The female in this scenario is uncomfortable with advances from friends. Adding a little alcohol to loosen her up and facilitate making a move is just plain bad advice. He's already "in", he doesn't need to penetrate her inner circle and gain her trust - but he does need to keep it.

On the other hand, if he doesn't respect her feelings, doesn't care about their friendship, and is only concerned about improving his odds of scoring - he can get drunk and act like a fool, then blame it on the alcohol. But somehow, I think she might deserve better and he will regret his behavior in the future.
 
  • #92
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The female in this scenario is uncomfortable with advances from friends. Adding a little alcohol to loosen her up and facilitate making a move is just plain bad advice. He's already "in", he doesn't need to penetrate her inner circle and gain her trust - but he does need to keep it.
Note: never offer wine or champagne to WhoWee on a romantic evening. He/she is liable to think you are trying to take advantage.
 
  • #93
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Once one reaches the legal limit, then one's judgement is impaired (legally and otherwise), and one's ability to consent is impaired (void), i.e. legally one cannot consent.
Every single drink the plaintiff took from the first to the last was his or her own decision, and the plaintiff thus chose to be physically impaired. Responsibility is never excluded because of poor decision-making.
 
  • #94
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Note: never offer wine or champagne to WhoWee on a romantic evening. He/she is liable to think you are trying to take advantage.
WhoWee is about 6'3"/250 pounds and has a wife - so just keep your hands (and lips) to yourself.:rofl:

You made an interesting distinction though - when you said "on a romantic evening". However, she won't know it's a romantic evening until he makes his move and springs his surprise. I rate his odds at less than 50%.

Alternatively, I think he'd do a lot better with a bowl of popcorn, a movie, a blanket, low lighting, a turned down thermostat and good timing. If he waits until the situation generally does feel right and point out the obvious - that "hey this feels great"-> get a positive response (doesn't it?) -> then, I just realized I like being with you more than all of the girls I've been dating -> and get another positive response -> then, gradually move the conversation forward.

He might even point out one of the many movies where long lost relatives kissed and said yuck! Maybe propose a simple kissing test (while under a blanket, talking softly, in close proximity) if there's no magic -> laugh it off and make a huge joke out of it - and don't go there again. Even if she likes the kiss - go slow, tell her he wants to be sure, not ruin the friendship and let her declare herself. When she's ready, it will be well worth the effort.

A good salesman sells the whole package, gets a lot of small positive responses, deals with all of the questions and concerns and moves to a logical conclusion - the deal has to be a win-win for all. By taking small steps they will both figure out what they want. Who knows, she might kiss like a camel?
 
  • #95
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WhoWee said:
Alternatively, I think he'd do a lot better with a bowl of popcorn, a movie, a blanket, low lighting, a turned down thermostat and good timing. If he waits until the situation generally does feel right and point out the obvious - that "hey this feels great"-> get a positive response (doesn't it?) -> then, I just realized I like being with you more than all of the girls I've been dating -> and get another positive response -> then, gradually move the conversation forward.

He might even point out one of the many movies where long lost relatives kissed and said yuck! Maybe propose a simple kissing test (while under a blanket, talking softly, in close proximity) if there's no magic -> laugh it off and make a huge joke out of it - and don't go there again. Even if she likes the kiss - go slow, tell her he wants to be sure, not ruin the friendship and let her declare herself. When she's ready, it will be well worth the effort.
You're a Love machine, WhoWee. :!!)
 
  • #96
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This is the original post "I'm one of her best friends, she tells me about her boyfriends, her problems, everything, She text-messages me almost everyday. We hang out together at her place, cook together, watch dvds. I make her laugh, comfort her when she is down, whole program. I'm not ugly, either. But still we are just friends. It sucks.

She is very cute, she constantly has men chasing after her. She also has the problem becoming friendly with men since they rather would turn her into their girlfriend than becoming friends.

So just telling her, I think would not do. She sees me 100 percent as her friend.

So what to do? How can I get out of the friendship zone?"

The female in this scenario is uncomfortable with advances from friends. Adding a little alcohol to loosen her up and facilitate making a move is just plain bad advice. He's already "in", he doesn't need to penetrate her inner circle and gain her trust - but he does need to keep it.

On the other hand, if he doesn't respect her feelings, doesn't care about their friendship, and is only concerned about improving his odds of scoring - he can get drunk and act like a fool, then blame it on the alcohol. But somehow, I think she might deserve better and he will regret his behavior in the future.

I agree with WhoWe's point here. In this context, it is definitely wrong. Real world morality, especially sexual morality, is very dependent on context and nuance. Unfortunately, I think there are many men who have a very difficult time understanding these things. I think it is partially because of a cultural approach that implies a collectivist view of women. The phrase "what women really want" for example implies that everyone in the category of "women" must want the same things by membership in tha group. This is absurd, just like it would be absurd to say what "black" people want or what "white" people want or whatever.

This also makes specific moral judgements more complex, since you can't apply a general rule to each case. For example, there are certainly some women who drink alcohol with the explicit point of lowering their sexual inhibitions. There are others who have their inhibitions lowered, but who weren't intending on this, and thus can feel taken advantage of even in what is seemingly a consensual act. To complicate matters further, there are some women who will take alcohol with the intent of lowering their inhibitions AND will after the fact pretend to be part of the second group so as to alleviate some of the negative social connotations with female promiscuity.
Our society is still far too squeamish on matters of sex to discuss these ideas openly. The realistic option that most men take is to pick up a sense of discernment so as to identify which situation is which. To play it safe, probably the best thing to do is to wait to get clear signals from a woman before proceeding (i.e. don't push yourself). Or in other words, let a woman select you, especially if there is alchohol involved.

On a different note, at the risk of sounding sexist, i do think there is, and should be, a double standard when it comes to women and men on this issue for simple biological reasons. It is extremely difficult to rape a man (if you're a woman) by using alchohol, since this inhibits their sexual functioning. You could still molest them, but again at the risk of sounding sexist, I think biological imperatives make this kind of experience much more traumatic (generally) for women then for men. And yes, i know i am somewhat contradicting my earlier point, which is why I said generally.
 
  • #97
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make a move

if she likes it -> gf

if she doesn't -> find another girl to like
 
  • #98
On a different note, at the risk of sounding sexist, i do think there is, and should be, a double standard when it comes to women and men on this issue for simple biological reasons. It is extremely difficult to rape a man (if you're a woman) by using alchohol, since this inhibits their sexual functioning. You could still molest them, but again at the risk of sounding sexist, I think biological imperatives make this kind of experience much more traumatic (generally) for women then for men. And yes, i know i am somewhat contradicting my earlier point, which is why I said generally.
The double standard that Cristo and Junglebeast took issue with (and which I actually agree with them on) is that the female in 'date rape' scenarios where there is consensual sex while under the influence is deemed to not be capable of taking responsibility for her actions while the male is generally expected to be responsible for their actions.
 
  • #99
Astronuc
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Every single drink the plaintiff took from the first to the last was his or her own decision, and the plaintiff thus chose to be physically impaired. Responsibility is never excluded because of poor decision-making.
Certainly with the first drink. After the first drink, judgement becomes impaired. That's why it is illegal to operate a motor vehicle with a certain level of alcohol in one's blood stream.

Yes people make poor judgements, and that is their responsibility - but that doesn't mean one should take advantage of them - nor does it exhonerate one who takes advantage of them.

Whenever I was out drinking and connected with a woman who had been drinking, I'd make sure she got back to her place safely, behind locked doors, before I left. Then I'd either go home or wander the streets or campus.
 
  • #100
Evo
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Every single drink the plaintiff took from the first to the last was his or her own decision, and the plaintiff thus chose to be physically impaired. Responsibility is never excluded because of poor decision-making.
The person may have gotten drunk, initially from bad decisions, then once drunk, most people don't have the reasoning to stop. Are you saying if a girl gets drunk that it's ok to rape her because she caused herself to become impaired? A person that impaired isn't capable of making sound decisions or even resisting in a lot of cases. Taking advantage of someone in an impaired condition is abhorable, and more than likely guilty, in the case of sex, of rape. A woman can't consent in that condition.
 

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