Admissions UC Davis department admissions closed? (Anger enclosed)

[Pengwuino]

UC Davis department admissions closed?!? (Anger enclosed)

So UC Davis dropped a damn bombshell on me this morning. I applied to the universities Department of Applied Science Graduate Program for the Fall 2011 semester. I get an e-mail this morning, MARCH 31ST, that I'm not even rejected, BUT THAT THEY AREN'T EVEN ADMITTING PEOPLE.

WHAT THE @#*$@#?

They said that they'll refund my admissions fee and that I'm encouraged to apply to other departments and LSDKHFLSHDLC*#@#%#C. What the hell is this BS??

I'm still trying to comprehend what the hell just happened. They tell me they aren't even accepting people... 3 months after the submission deadline? And then encourage me to apply to a different department when all their deadlines have to have passed by now. I'm still dumbfounded by this. I have no idea what I'm suppose to do as Davis was looking like my preferred choice for graduate school.

So what I would like to ask you all, while I'm sitting here popping blood vessels, is whether or not I should try to work out a deal with their Physics department to be a temporary student or something and later transfer to the DAS. Or something? I have no idea, I'm just... speechless as to what the hell I'm suppose to do now.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Take 24-48 hours to calm down, and then call- do not email- the Department Chair (Yin Yeh) directly. I assume all you really want to know is if the letter is true- that the program is not admitting *anyone*?

If you remain calm, explain that it's too late to apply to other programs, and ask for 'plan B' ideas, you may be surprised- any decent department/school would be a fool to alienate a talented student (even if they can't accept the student). One of the departments in my college can only accept 10% of the students that apply, and they regularly work with bright students that, through no fault of their own, could not be admitted.

Good luck- the key is to remain calm and not take their decision personally.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well, I already e-mailed the graduate student affairs officer and asked what the reasoning was and whether or not transferring to the department in the future was a possibility. She said that the department was not accepting new students or transfer students. I also asked if this was a temporary situation and she said that she was not sure if the situation is temporary or not.

What kind of "plan B" options would there be if it were at all possible in the first place? I know I'm probably not a stellar applicant, but probably not at the lower end of who they would have hypothetically accepted.

Also, from what I gather, transfers between universities and even departments is frowned upon, so I feel like I'm in an all or nothing game here. I've been accepted at Georgia Tech and I'm not too too excited to attend there and it seems like if I do decide to go there, I'm pretty much there for my whole PhD.

 

[gb7nash]

First, take a couple of days to calm down. Take a walk outside, play some videos games, watch a good movie. Come back and ask after you have a clear head.

As I've learned from dealing with similar situations, more gets accomplished after I've calmed down.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well as much as I was annoyed in the original post, at this point I have no time to be mad or annoyed or whatever. I have a huge decision that has to be made and the time-frame has narrowed with a real curve ball hitting me. I really liked the idea of going to Davis as it is somewhere near home, in-state tuition, not very expensive, near Lawrence Livermore, and has a decent Plasma physics group.

What are the chances I can get the other programs I've been accepted to to extend the Statement of Intent to Register deadline? I feel like telling them 'Hey, I haven't heard from two universities, I'm having an issue with one where I'll probably be forced to re-apply to a department, i'd be immensely grateful for an extension on the deadline'. I need to get all my ducks in a row here.

 

[jtbell]

She said that the department was not accepting new students or transfer students. I also asked if this was a temporary situation and she said that she was not sure if the situation is temporary or not.

You don't suppose this has something to do with California's state budget problems? That would be pretty much out of their control.

 

[Pengwuino]

You don't suppose this has something to do with California's state budget problems? That would be pretty much out of their control.

I suspect this may be part of the problem. Can it be so bad that they flat out are not accepting students?

 

[physics girl phd]

...I really liked the idea of going to Davis as it is somewhere near home, in-state tuition, not very expensive, near Lawrence Livermore, and has a decent Plasma physics group.

I'd hope, for a graduate program in the sciences, that you wouldn't be paying tuition. Did Georgia Tech give you an offer with guaranteed support for the first year via a at least a TA from? I am not familiar with their plasma physics group, but I am informed about their condensed matter groups (I worked with Mei-Yin Chou for an REU many years ago), and Rick Trebino has a great ultra-fast laser group.

 

[Pengwuino]

I'd hope, for a graduate program in the sciences, that you wouldn't be paying tuition. Did Georgia Tech give you an offer with guaranteed support for the first year via a at least a TA from? I am not familiar with their plasma physics group, but I am informed about their condensed matter groups (I worked with Mei-Yin Chou for an REU many years ago), and Rick Trebino has a great ultra-fast laser group.

No, they did not guarantee me any financial support. The letter said I am expected to supply my own funds and that faculty members may decide to support students on funded research departments. I was accepted to the Nuclear & Radiological Engineering program so I'm not entirely familiar with funding to programs like that. In physics, obviously we have TAships, but I figure such a department can't be too much different...

I'm hoping that wasn't just the polite way of rejecting me that some universities use.

 

[AlephZero]

John Lennon was right. Life is what happens while you're making other plans.

The only thing that I would add to that is my own life experience. I've had a few similar expected "earth shattering" events happen over the years, and the medium/long term consequences have never turned out to be negative. My answer to the question "looking back, do you wish things had always gone the way you planned" would be at best "no preference", and on a couple of occasions "no way, I got pitched headfirst into something that turned out to be much more challenging and fun that what I thought I wanted to do with my life".

Good luck, and remember the motto "nil illegitimi carborundum".

 

[physics girl phd]

I'm hoping that wasn't just the polite way of rejecting me that some universities use.

I don't think it's that (I don't know any universities that use it that way... but it is certainly a way of saying you aren't at the top of the list (which would make me worried a bit then about getting funding in a research group if you are competing for those spots with "top-of-the-list" folks).

I suspect this too has to do with state budget cuts, etc. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/07/us/07hope.html" (not sure if it happened, and it does relate to the undergrad program rather than grad... but it is indicative of state woes throughout the US.

 

[twofish-quant]

I suspect this may be part of the problem. Can it be so bad that they flat out are not accepting students?

Yes. It's that bad.

One thing about being angry is that it's important that you direct the anger at the right people. I'm pretty sure that the California legislature is a more worthy target of your anger than anyone at the department.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I guess I am confused - what did you want them to do? Would a letter saying "we're admitting students, just not you" be any better for you?

And yes, the financial situation can be so bad that they are skipping a year. Or terminating the program. Or thinking about terminating the program N years from now.

 

[twofish-quant]

I'm still trying to comprehend what the hell just happened.

http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-03-25/bay-area/29187194_1_budget-cuts-reductions-in-social-services-spending-cut

I have no idea what I'm suppose to do as Davis was looking like my preferred choice for graduate school.

Getting angry is a good start. Just make sure that you target the right people. Also, given that budget cuts are part of the landscape, I think you'll face a lot of similar situations in the next few years.

So what I would like to ask you all, while I'm sitting here popping blood vessels, is whether or not I should try to work out a deal with their Physics department to be a temporary student or something and later transfer to the DAS.

The problem that you will have is that they likely have no idea what to do.

 

[Pengwuino]

I guess I am confused - what did you want them to do? Would a letter saying "we're admitting students, just not you" be any better for you?

No but that is not the point. I doubt this decision was made yesterday and if they had made it clear to applicants that something like this could be happening, I would have applied to the Physics department as well to hedge my bets. At this point, I don't think I can be considered for a TAship if I apply to the physics department and am accepted.

Personally I'm curious as to when this decision was made. I e-mailed Davis on Wednesday asking for an update on my application. A day later I receive this e-mail saying they are not accepting anyone.

 

[bcrowell]

Sorry to hear about your troubles, Pengwuino. I made pretty much the same mistake that it sounds like you did. When I first applied to grad school in physics, I only applied to 4 schools, didn't get into any of them. I waited a year and applied to 14 schools, got into one very good school. You don't want all your eggs in one basket -- or even in a few baskets.

Are you not living in California and thus not familiar with the political situation? It's a total budget meltdown. At the community college where I teach, we have entering freshmen who can't get a single class. Too many classes have been canceled because of budget cuts.

 

[bcrowell]

No but that is not the point. I doubt this decision was made yesterday [...]

What makes you think that? You're not dealing with a smoothly functioning state government, you're dealing with a completely dysfunctional one.

 

[twofish-quant]

No but that is not the point. I doubt this decision was made yesterday and if they had made it clear to applicants that something like this could be happening, I would have applied to the Physics department as well to hedge my bets.

Governor Brown didn't sign the budget cut bill until Friday, so until Monday it was likely that the department had no idea how many students they could admit.

One lesson is to always hedge your bets because unexpected things will happen. Also since the cuts are statewide, there's no particular reason to think that the physics department isn't also sending out similar letters.

I think the other takeaway from this is that you should start getting more involved in keeping track of state and federal budget processes. Given that everyone is in a cutting mood, this isn't going to be the last time this will happen.

Personally I'm curious as to when this decision was made.

Brown signed the budget bill on 3/25. There was probably a big meeting involving the university administration on 3/28, and which would have put the department decision on 3/29 or 3/30.

 

[Pengwuino]

What makes you think that? You're not dealing with a smoothly functioning state government, you're dealing with a completely dysfunctional one.

Yah I've lived here my entire life and knew California was a little screwed up... but I guess I had a little faith that it wouldn't become this god awful. Oh well.

The real issue, for me now, is figuring out something else. I plan to call the chair on Monday, as suggested, and seeing if there's anything that could be worked out.

Would it be wise to contact professors I would like to work with and ... actually I'm not even sure what I could ask. I also need to contact Georgia Tech about money because I can't go there if they're not going to fund me (or at least really really really don't want to).

I also got into UC Merced, except they have nothing I want to do there. I literally only applied because of the fee-waiver and transfer possibilities... but from what I hear transferring is a bad prospect at the PhD level.

 

[Pengwuino]

One lesson is to always hedge your bets because unexpected things will happen. Also since the cuts are statewide, there's no particular reason to think that the physics department isn't also sending out similar letters.

The Physics department has sent out rejections from what I hear haha. I noticed two people on physicsgre.com who said they were accepted at davis, but I suspect there's no real difference between a department admitting 2 people or 0 people.

 

[PhDorBust]

Wait a few weeks and you will be happy things turned out the way they did.

Not saying things will turn out to be decent, but human psychology just works that way.

 

[Manchot]

For all I know, it could also be related to the federal government's impending shutdown. If that happens, I expect that new proposals will be put on hold.

 

[jtbell]

http://articles.sfgate.com/2011-03-25/bay-area/29187194_1_budget-cuts-reductions-in-social-services-spending-cut

Key phrase:

[...] slashing $500 million each from the University of California and California State University systems.

That's a billion dollars total, just from higher education. In one state.

 

[Andy Resnick]

What kind of "plan B" options would there be if it were at all possible in the first place? I know I'm probably not a stellar applicant, but probably not at the lower end of who they would have hypothetically accepted.

As I mentioned, the people actually doing this are in another school, so I only have anecdotal ideas.

Overall, what you want (presumably) is a plan of action that allows you to stay on track, career-wise. This can range from getting help applying to another program (post-deadline), provisional admission, admission to a different program that allows for easy transferral, etc.

The specific plan is dependent on *your* needs, so I can't get much more specific than that. I'll ask around and see if there are any specific actions taken that you may find useful.

 

[Pengwuino]

As I mentioned, the people actually doing this are in another school, so I only have anecdotal ideas.

Overall, what you want (presumably) is a plan of action that allows you to stay on track, career-wise. This can range from getting help applying to another program (post-deadline), provisional admission, admission to a different program that allows for easy transferral, etc.

The specific plan is dependent on *your* needs, so I can't get much more specific than that. I'll ask around and see if there are any specific actions taken that you may find useful.

That would be very helpful, thank you :)

I'm thinking this decision was in fact made extremely recently. I e-mailed the graduate student affairs officer on Wednesday, got an e-mail from another person on Thursday saying the department wasnt accepting students and the application fees were being refunded, then this morning I hear from the person I e-mailed on Wednesday saying basically the same thing. So I'm guessing the Thursday e-mail was THE announcement for all applicants.

I'm going to try to talk to one of my professors today that I'm fairly sure graduated from the department and I'm going to see if he still keeps in touch with anyone there to see what the situation is.

Is it advisable to contact the professors I was hoping to eventually work with and see if they have any advice?

 

[Andy Resnick]

Is it advisable to contact the professors I was hoping to eventually work with and see if they have any advice?

Absolutely! Assuming, of course, you don't start screaming at them... :)

 

[Pengwuino]

Well some good news! I was talking to one of my professors who received his PhD at Davis and he took it upon himself to call them and see if I could still apply and receive a TAship at the Physics department and offered to write me a letter of recommendation atop what my 3 other recommenders would do.

So my next step is to contact the research group that I'm interested in working with and seeing if I would be able to work with them in the future even though I would be outside of their department.

 

[twofish-quant]

Absolutely! Assuming, of course, you don't start screaming at them... :)

My guess is that they are as angry or even more angry than you are, so it's a good idea to talk to people so that you can all direct your anger at the right people, and those people are likely to be in Sacremento.

 

[gbeagle]

I suspect this may be part of the problem. Can it be so bad that they flat out are not accepting students?

As a graduate student at a UC school, I can tell you that it is that bad. Some of the campuses are even closing whole departments... Also since it's looking like the ballot prop. in June to raise taxes might not even happen, the cuts to the UC system are likely going to get even larger.

 

[lurky]

I'm sorry but I find all of this absolutely incredible.

 

[Shackleford]

That's what happens when you have an extremely weak economy.

 

[spartanaudio]

As a graduate student at a UC school, I can tell you that it is that bad. Some of the campuses are even closing whole departments... Also since it's looking like the ballot prop. in June to raise taxes might not even happen, the cuts to the UC system are likely going to get even larger.

yep. I'm currently looking to move out of state to finish my undergrad as I've been hearing rumors(from faculty, transfer advisors, etc.) that transfers may become extremely selective to UC and CSU(if they accept any at all) and I may have to attend 3 semesters instead if the 2 I have left in a CC(worst case 4) to transfer into an engineering program. I barely got into the classes I have this semester as it is.

This is only with the recent cuts too.

Thinking Austin, Texas but not too sure of the situation there.

 

[twofish-quant]

Thinking Austin, Texas but not too sure of the situation there.

I think it's going to be out of the frying pan into the fire situation. As bad as the situation is in California, it has two things going for it.

1) In California, you have a governor that really doesn't want to cut things and would prefer to raise taxes if he could.

2) California is at least handling the issue. My sense is that Texas is still in a state of denial about how bad the situation is.

 

[Pengwuino]

2) California is at least handling the issue. My sense is that Texas is still in a state of denial about how bad the situation is.

Stop that. UT Austin was my one side hail mary play in all of this. California is still pretty much in denial. Jerry Brown is screwed along with the rest of us.

 

[twofish-quant]

Stop that. UT Austin was my one side hail mary play in all of this.

It's a global crisis. Texas got hit quite hard.

California is still pretty much in denial. Jerry Brown is screwed along with the rest of us.

There are levels of denial. At least California has figured out that it needs to cut $X or raise $Y taxes. Texas is just barely getting to that point. Also, Jerry Brown might not be talking out loud about what he is thinking, but I get the sense that his view of the tradeoffs and the issues is close to what is the actual situation. I don't get that sense with Rick Perry.

There are times when you hope a politician is lying to you. Sometimes what a politician says makes absolutely no sense that you hope what is happening is that they are telling bald faced lies in order to get votes when in fact they secretly have a plan B that they will pull out once. Jerry Brown strikes me as the type of person that will lie to get elected, which means that when he says something that makes no sense, I assume he is lying, and that makes me feel better. Rick Perry is honest and sincere, so when he says something that makes zero sense, I get worried because he actually believes what he is saying.

 

[G01]

I'm sorry but I find all of this absolutely incredible.

With 20-20 hindsight, I think it's less incredible than it initially seems. The whole country has been going down this road for a while.

That's what happens when you have an extremely weak economy.

This is what happens with poor management. The problem with decades of politicians campaigning on promises of high services and low taxes is that such a system is unsustainable. High services are great, but the money for them needs to come from somewhere. To make a physics analogy: We've been trying to break a conservation law for a long time. Unfortunately, this just isn't possible. (Hence the crushing debt...)

The whole country will have to deal with this before it's over. California is just the start.Penguino: I hope it all works out for you. Hang in there and stay calm. Hopefully a good solution will present itself soon.

 

[twofish-quant]

This is what happens with poor management. The problem with decades of politicians campaigning on promises of high services and low taxes is that such a system is unsustainable. High services are great, but the money for them needs to come from somewhere.

It can come from a printing press. If you have unused capacity, you can and should cause that capacity to be used by printing money. Money is a mass hallucination, and if you have actual goods and services but no money, then you can just dump money from the skies.

To make a physics analogy: We've been trying to break a conservation law for a long time. Unfortunately, this just isn't possible. (Hence the crushing debt...)

Bad analogy. Money doesn't work like that. Money doesn't follow any conservation laws. It can be created and destroyed. Money *does* follow some other rules, but they aren't your standard physics rules. One of the rules of money is that it tends to flow uphill. People with money change the rules so that they make more money.

The whole country will have to deal with this before it's over. California is just the start.

And I think cutting back is 180 degrees the wrong way of doing it. Right now people aren't listening to me, but give it a few years. What I'm pretty sure that will happen is that people will make cuts thinking that it will improve things, but it will just make things worse. Fortunately, it takes a while for the boat to sink, and so there will be time to reverse the damage and start up the printing presses.

Hang in there and stay calm. Hopefully a good solution will present itself soon.

The solution seems pretty obvious to me. But I'm patient, and I'm less concerned about good things happening than about being right. If it turns out that we can get out of this mess by cuts, then that's fine, but I happen to believe that cuts will just make things worse.

It should be pointed out that China has decided to do 180 degrees the opposite of the US and has decided to deal with the economic crisis by spending massive amounts of money in science and technology. If things go the way that I think they will go, then in five years, it will be obvious that this is the right thing to do, and the US will do it.

 

[spartanaudio]

The whole country will have to deal with this before it's over. California is just the start.

yep. I just want to finish my degree before then :(

 

[Shackleford]

With 20-20 hindsight, I think it's less incredible than it initially seems. The whole country has been going down this road for a while.

This is what happens with poor management. The problem with decades of politicians campaigning on promises of high services and low taxes is that such a system is unsustainable. High services are great, but the money for them needs to come from somewhere. To make a physics analogy: We've been trying to break a conservation law for a long time. Unfortunately, this just isn't possible. (Hence the crushing debt...)

The whole country will have to deal with this before it's over. California is just the start.

Penguino: I hope it all works out for you. Hang in there and stay calm. Hopefully a good solution will present itself soon.

There is a budget shortfall because of the weak economy. This highlights the fact of bloated state and federal budgets. If the budget has to be cut, education is always a target because it typically consumes the most of state budgets. People who clamor and whine about cutting education spending when the budget has to be cut are being irrational and immature. The states are not cutting education funding completely. They're simply reducing the amount going towards education. This should force the state and local ISDs to trim the fat, become more efficient, and spend the money wisely. That's just the way it is. We should be asking how we get the economy moving again. You do not do that by raising taxes.

 

[ParticleGrl]

There is a budget shortfall because of the weak economy. This highlights the fact of bloated state and federal budgets. If the budget has to be cut, education is always a target because it typically consumes the most of state budgets. People who clamor and whine about cutting education spending when the budget has to be cut are being irrational and immature.

Its easier to destroy than to create- departments closed down may take much longer to rebuild as the economy begins to grow again and the budgets move to surplus.

We should be asking how we get the economy moving again. You do not do that by raising taxes.

And you don't do it with deep spending cuts either.

 

[flyingpig]

Sue them!

 

[Shackleford]

Its easier to destroy than to create- departments closed down may take much longer to rebuild as the economy begins to grow again and the budgets move to surplus.
And you don't do it with deep spending cuts either.

Who says the departments need to open back up in the first? Essential functions of government are the most important things we need to fund. Privileges of our society come next. Sometimes we have more money sometimes we have less to spend on such things.

You do if you don't have the funds. Spending money you don't have is generally a bad idea. There is nothing wrong with spending cuts. Letting us keep more of our own money to invest or spend it as we see fit is always a good idea.

 

[lurky]

With 20-20 hindsight, I think it's less incredible than it initially seems. The whole country has been going down this road for a while.

Actually, the reason why it strikes me as so bizarre is because, being from Canada, I've been through this already. For us, it happened in the 90s. And of course, before us, it happened to someone else, and to someone else before them, and so on. So that's why I find it incredible - i.e. that the cycle just continues.

 

[twofish-quant]

There is a budget shortfall because of the weak economy. This highlights the fact of bloated state and federal budgets.

I don't think that state and federal governments are spending enough on infrastructure and education, and I'm in favor of big government funded by increasing taxes on people like me that make insane amounts of money gaming the system.

But no need to argue the point. Right now you've won the argument, and people are doing to do things your way. All I ask is that you remember what I'm saying now in a few years when it becomes obvious that cutting, cutting, cutting doesn't work, and you need some new ideas.

The states are not cutting education funding completely. They're simply reducing the amount going towards education. This should force the state and local ISDs to trim the fat, become more efficient, and spend the money wisely.

There's no more fat left. Ultimately what you are doing if you keep cutting education is that you are just encouraging people not to become teachers but rather to become investment bankers. This is going to kill you because, less education means a weaker economy which means less education which means a weaker economy.

Personally, I think that the US has gone way, way too far in bashing government, and if you just bash government, you'll end up with everyone going into finance, which I don't think is healthy for the nation.

That's just the way it is. We should be asking how we get the economy moving again. You do not do that by raising taxes.

Yes you do, provided you focus the taxes on people like me that probably make a lot more money than we should. If you increase my taxes by 5%, I'm not going to notice.

 

[twofish-quant]

Who says the departments need to open back up in the first? Essential functions of government are the most important things we need to fund.

Education is an essential function of government.

Spending money you don't have is generally a bad idea.

It's really good idea if you are investing in useful things that will pay off in the future. In any case, money is a social illusion. One reason I find Wall Street fascinating is that I spend a good part of my day thinking about "what is money?"

There is nothing wrong with spending cuts. Letting us keep more of our own money to invest or spend it as we see fit is always a good idea.

If you make less than $250,000, than that's a good idea. People that make less than that don't need their taxes raised, and it's not going to raise that much more money anyway. People that make $250,000+ need their taxes increased, and that will be enough to pay for things.

 

[Ashuron]

this reminds me how US govt spend their money..

http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=1305

 

[Vanadium 50]

People that make $250,000+ need their taxes increased, and that will be enough to pay for things.

Actually, it's not. The Federal deficit is $1.3T. The total income tax collected is $900B. 59% is paid by people making $160k a year or more. To close the gap requires their taxes to go up by a factor of 3.45, making the highest bracket 120%.

Moving the $160K to $250K only makes it worse.

At the risk of channeling Margaret Thatcher, we've run out of other people's money.

This is also why universities are in such dire circumstances. For years state flagship universities have been trying to increase their quality at the same time that the budget provided them by the states are decreasing. They can make up some of the difference with tuition increases, but that can also only go so far. Now that the music has stopped, they are in trouble.

I compared a recent bulletin for a Big Ten school with one from 20 years ago, and the number of majors has gone up by 20-25%. That means the number of departments has gone up by a similar factor, and that means that personnel costs also go up. This money has to come from somewhere.

 

[AlephZero]

Actually, it's not. The Federal deficit is $1.3T. The total income tax collected is $900B. 59% is paid by people making $160k a year or more. To close the gap requires their taxes to go up by a factor of 3.45, making the highest bracket 120%.

You could easily fix that problem by raising the high earner's salaries by x3.45. and leaving the tax rate the same. As somebody said, the money can come from a printing press, and it tends to flow uphill...

 

[Pengwuino]

I'm going to open up another thread and I'd like you all to please move this discussion into this thread as I feel we are going a bit off topic. I really want to keep this discussion going though!

So can we move to this?

I have opened up a new thread: https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=3229443

 

[jtbell]

And with that, I'm closing this thread, at least provisionally.