Understanding Logic: A Beginner's Guide to Philosophy

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The discussion centers on defining logic in simple terms, particularly for those new to philosophy. Logic is characterized as the study of prescriptive laws of reasoning, distinguishing it from descriptive laws, which are more aligned with psychology. Validity in logic is emphasized, where certain logical forms reliably lead from true premises to true conclusions, while others do not. The conversation also touches on the nature of reasoning, suggesting that logic can be seen as a structured way of thinking that aligns with common sense and everyday experiences. Various perspectives are shared, including the idea that logic can be subjective and influenced by individual experiences. The relationship between logic and concepts like faith, common sense, and causality is explored, indicating that while logic aims for clarity and consistency, it is also subject to human interpretation and error. The discussion concludes with reflections on the broader implications of logic in understanding reality and decision-making.
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For those of us who are still learning and understanding philosophy, can we differentiate logic in the most simple terms?
 
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Originally posted by Kerrie
For those of us who are still learning and understanding philosophy, can we differentiate logic in the most simple terms?

Differentiate logic from what?
 
The most practical and simplistic definition I've so far heard is, "logic makes things better"- Marylin Savant
 
Kerrie, did you mean to "define" logic?
 
Formalised reasoning?
 
A good working definition of logic is that it is the set of prescriptive (as opposed to descriptive) laws of reasoning.

If I may do a little cut-and-paste job from my Logic Notes:

[?] Is logic the study of the laws of thought?
That’s too broad. There is plenty of thought that logic is not concerned with. For example, imagining two-headed goats is thought, but the logician does not care about that. We are interested in that particular subset of thought called reasoning

[?]Ah, so logic is the study of the laws of reasoning then, right?
Still too broad, and the root of the problem lies in the two uses of the word “law”. Laws can be either descriptive or prescriptive. A descriptive law is a statement of how something is done, as in the laws of nature. They cannot be broken or repealed. On the other hand, a prescriptive law is a statement of how something should be done, as in the laws set forth by a legislature. They can be broken and changed. The study of the descriptive laws of reason (how people do, in fact, reason) is not logic, but psychology. But the study of the prescriptive laws of reason (how people ought to reason) is logic.

[?]So, we are interested in the latter—the prescriptive laws of reasoning.
Correct. That will be our definition of logic throughout this study
 
Originally posted by Tom
On the other hand, a prescriptive law is a statement of how something should be done, as in the laws set forth by a legislature. They can be broken and changed. The study of the descriptive laws of reason (how people do, in fact, reason) is not logic, but psychology. But the study of the prescriptive laws of reason (how people ought to reason) is logic.

[?]So, we are interested in the latter—the prescriptive laws of reasoning.
Correct. That will be our definition of logic throughout this study[/I] [/B]

so who or what determines "should" be done? or how it should be done?
 
Originally posted by Kerrie
so who or what determines "should" be done? or how it should be done?

Keeping to the simple example of a 2-valued logic (T and F), we have a variety of logical inferences that can always be trusted, as well as some that cannot be trusted. Logical forms can be shown to be either valid or invalid by Venn diagrams (in syllogistic logic) or truth tables (in propositional logic). That is, we can determine with certainty whether a logical form always leads from true premises to a true conclusion. If it does then it is valid, and if not then it is invalid.

Note that establishing validity does not tell us whether or not the premises are actually true, it merely tells us that if the premises are true, then the conclusion is also true.

From the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy, in an article called Logical Form, we find the following discussion (color emphasis mine):

Some inferences are impeccable[/color].

Consider:

(1) John danced if Mary sang, and Mary sang; so John danced.
(2) Every politician is deceitful, and every senator is a politician; so every senator is deceitful.
(3) The tallest man is in the garden; so someone is in the garden.

Such reasoning cannot lead from true premises to false conclusions.[/color] The premises may be false. But a thinker takes no epistemic risk by endorsing the conditional claim: if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true.[/color] Given the premises, the conclusion follows immediately--without any further assumptions that might turn out to be false. By contrast, it would be very risky to infer that John danced, given only the assumption that Mary sang. More interesting examples include:

(4) John danced if Mary sang, and John danced; so Mary sang.
(5) Every hairless biped is a bird, Tweety is a hairless biped; so Tweety can fly.
(6) Every human born before 1850 has died; so every human will die.

Inference (4) is not secure. Suppose John dances whenever Mary sings, and he sometimes dances when Mary doesn't sing. Similarly, (5) relies on unstated assumptions--e.g., that Tweety is not a penguin. Even (6) falls short of the demonstrative character exhibited by (1-3). While laws of nature may preclude immortality, it is conceivable that someone will escape the grim reaper; and the conclusion of (6) goes beyond its premise, even if it is (in some sense) foolish to resist the inference.

Appeals to logical form arose in the context of attempts to say more about this intuitive distinction between impeccable inferences, which invite metaphors of security and immediacy, and inferences that involve a risk of slipping from truth to falsity.[/color]

There's a lot more there, but I think the question is answered with what I presented here. The validity of some reasoning and the invalidity of others is determined by philosophers and mathematicians (this is where philosophy and math overlap) who find such "impeccable inferrences".
 
Philisophically speaking (ha I love the length of that word)

Some one once said to me

"There is a logic for everything and everything has a logic"

"There is a science for everything and everything has a science"

The logic I love the most is the logic of music, it is so infinite in it's application, the logic of a performer giving it all, the logic of the audience with tears in their eyes, the logic of rhythm and melodies, counterpoint, harmony, harmonics and discord.

The logic of what is it? hmmm 72 notes ,just add humanity and wow what a outcome.

I am sailing...I am sailing...home again ...cross the sea. I am sailing stormy waters to be near you to be free...(Rod Stewart)

Ha ...i'm going to cry... and i can tell you if you look hard enough you'll find that response quite logical to.
 
  • #10
Originally posted by scott_sieger
Philisophically speaking (ha I love the length of that word)

Are you one given to sesquipedalian extravagance?
 
  • #11
actuallymydictionaryhasbeencensoredhavingallwordsinexcessofonefootinlengthdeletedandsotomakeupforitijustaddafewlettersandalittleextrameaningandwellificanunderstanditthenIassumethatyoucantoo. And if you can't I would suggest you get a dictionary like mine that has been censored, having all words in excess of one foot deleted, and so to make up for it i...
 
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  • #12
Such reasoning cannot lead from true premises to false conclusions. The premises may be false. But a thinker takes no epistemic risk by endorsing the conditional claim: if the premises are true, then the conclusion is true. Given the premises, the conclusion follows immediately--without any further assumptions that might turn out to be false. By contrast, it would be very risky to infer that John danced, given only the assumption that Mary sang. More interesting examples include:
in particular:
Given the premises, the conclusion follows immediately--without any further assumptions that might turn out to be false.
this is correct as long as one realizes that one of the premises is that ((A-->B)&A)-->B is true for all statements A and B. or you could say by definition of -->.
 
  • #13
Originally posted by Kerrie
For those of us who are still learning and understanding philosophy, can we differentiate logic in the most simple terms?

I would say that it is deductive and inductive arguments from previously stated points that theorize the wrong of a system/design, which is not supposed to be based on emotion or whim but is often substituted for those purposes and principles.
 
  • #14
I would say that it is deductive and inductive arguments from previously stated points that theorize the wrong of a system/design, which is not supposed to be based on emotion or whim but is often substituted for those purposes and principles.
check out http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PropositionalCalculus.html. it gives some axiom schemata for formal logic. i guess most people would say that (11), modus ponens, is the most important one.

these all seem like whims to me though they don't seem to be based on emotion. however, once you accept those axiom schemata which i could call whims, the theorems that follow from them are not of the whim variety.
 
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  • #15


Originally posted by phoenixthoth
check out http://mathworld.wolfram.com/PropositionalCalculus.html. it gives some axiom schemata for formal logic. i guess most people would say that (11), modus ponens, is the most important one.

these all seem like whims to me though they don't seem to be based on emotion. however, once you accept those axiom schemata which i could call whims, the theorems that follow from them are not of the whim variety.

Ok, I see what you mean by the whims of Modus Ponens, but all formal logic has to deal with some level of truth from that given someone. All logic has to be supplied and attributed to axiom schemata's, and axioms help provide information for theories, which in turn could form into laws.

So in conclusion all logic, could be a form of mental projection of whim and and absolute immplicit reason without a(n) of option of a doubt in their mind? And for that matter wouldn't logic have to have a basis of rule or law with propositional statistics to support that idea?

You could make a connection and say that logic is extremely parallel to faith, couldn't you in some cases?
 
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  • #16
dictionary.com provides definitions of the word faith, of which, here are two:
1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence. See Synonyms at belief. See Synonyms at trust.

axioms do not rest on logical proof but one could say they do rest on material evidence. one who would say they rest on material evidence wouldn't be having faith in those axioms as in the second sense of faith. the first sense of faith makes it seem as though whenever one is confident in the truth of something that faith is involved.

just for fun, i was wondering what would happen if instead of adopting a definition of if/then, symbolized by A→B, and a definition of and, symbolized by A∧B, and then proving that modus ponens is a tautology, what would happen if we assume the definition of ∧ and that modus ponens is a tautology? would that force the definition of A→B?

ok, one usually says that A→B is defined by this truth table:
A B A→B
T T T
T F F
F T T
F F T.

but let's leave it open:
A B A→B
T T ?
T F ?
F T ?
F F ?

two assumptions:
A B A∧B
T T T
T F F
F T F
F F F

and that modus ponens is a tautology:
A B ((A→B)∧A)→B
T T T
T F T
F T T
F F T.

using these assumptions, can we solve for the ?'s?

let's put it together and keep track of the different ?'s with subscripts denoted ?_n:
A B A→B (A→B)∧A ((A→B)∧A)→B
T T ?_1 ?_5 T
T F ?_2 ?_6 T
F T ?_3 ?_7 T
F F ?_4 ?_8 T

by definition of ∧, we already know that ?_7=?_8=F since A is F in those two cases.

from this truth table, we can derive this, substituting F for ?_7 and ?_8:
C B C→B
?_5 T T
?_6 F T
F T T
F F T

we also have this:
A B A→B
T T ?_1
T F ?_2
F T ?_3
F F ?_4

from the table before this, we get ?_3=?_4=T. (thus we can say that vacuous truth must be in place in order for modus ponens to operate, which is nice.)

from the first table with subscripted question marks, we can turn to the 4th column for info. let me write down some statements:
?_5=T iff ?_1=T and
?_6=T iff ?_2=T.

hence ?_5=?_1 and ?_6=?_2. let's repeat the original table including what we know and leaving ?_1 and ?_2 as they are for now:
A B A→B (A→B)∧A ((A→B)∧A)→B
T T ?_1 ?_1 T
T F ?_2 ?_2 T
F T T F T
F F T F T.

there are four possibilities now (a reduction from 28 possibilities):
?_1 ?_2
T T
T F
F T
F F

i don't see anything wrong with any of these possibilities. I'm not seeing how ?_1 is forced to be T and ?_2 forced to be F... perhaps if we add the assumption that (A→B)→(¬B→¬A) is a tautology then that will force ?_1 to be T and ?_2 to be F...
 
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  • #17
The best way I have found to describe logic -

Think well and live in harmony with your thoughts.
Think logically and live consistently. -MP Hall
 
  • #18
Logic attempts reduction of representation for given information.
 
  • #19
Logic cannot be defined.

Logic to me may be utter rubbish to the insane man in the asylum. What the cheetah sees as logic may be foolish to what we humans believe.

Hence, I'll say logic is relative. It varies from individual to individual. Why then do you want to define logic?

But if you insist on defining logic, its simply a set of reasoning which we believe holds true in our context. Thats my opinion.
 
  • #20
Originally posted by Kerrie
For those of us who are still learning and understanding philosophy, can we differentiate logic in the most simple terms?

I believe logic is something that you gain by daily experience.
 
  • #21
Is logic really anything other than applying basic common sense? Afterall, what are we trying to define then, if not that which is basic and makes sense?
 
  • #22
what's logic?

The author of a text I used in my first year philosophy class defined logic as 'the science that evaluates arguments'. However, both of the words 'logic' and 'argument' were used with strict technical definitions. Some think the use of the word science is pompous. In common usage, both of the words 'logic' and 'argument' are used in several different ways with different meanings that causes confusion.
I know of a writer who defined logic in terms of what makes things illogical. He made a list of about a dozen things like 'all related facts are known', 'correct time sequence', etc. Most of these are covered as informal fallacies in logic texts but the subject seems simpler in this writer's world where being logical is equated with being rational.
The definitions of logic in terms of reasoning seem too encompassing because the study of logic doesn't get into many of the reasoning skills people use like LATERAL THINKING as defined by Edward DeBono or the 13 creative thinking skills such as abstraction mentioned by Root-Bernstein in SPARKS OF GENIUS.
Many people seem to use the word 'logic' informally as a word to describe what seems like an evolutionary process. It is logical for an acorn to become an oak but it isn't logical for an acorn to become a dragon.
Defining logic in terms of common sense only makes me wonder what common sense is and where it comes from.What is reasoning for that matter? It's amazing how much disparity there is in people's statements regarding what subjective things are going on when they 'reason'.
 
  • #23
Logic is a verbally or symbolically aided form of a natural function of the animal brain.
Logic is the natural way of thinking that everyone uses, animals too. The function of logic is probably like basic conditioning or stimulus response learning, or in humans we might observe more cause and effect relations and a bit more complex conditioning type situations, for example, even though we known very well that the used car saler's nice suit shouldn't have anything to do with getting a good car it nevertheless helps to sell cars because of the subconscious reasonings going on based on past experience or whatever, and if they throw in a few compliments that car looks even better to me wether I'm aware of this or not. Using simple logic verbally is a human advantage that with the aid of words or symbols give people more control just as using words give people the ability to manipulate ideas. The syllogism demands certainty of thinking, and inductive reasoning seems like the application of imagination to reason.
 
  • #24
Have any of you heard John Archibald Wheeler's argument that the physical universe is reducible to binary logic?
 
  • #25
Originally posted by Loren Booda
Have any of you heard John Archibald Wheeler's argument that the physical universe is reducible to binary logic?

Yes but Binary logic is forever bounded by Human Logic so we are back where we started with the question. Even reduced to Binary logic the question of which switch to choose (0 or 1) still poses a choice of logic. Common sense is aslo bounded by the rules of loogic. I think one logical explanation are those outsite universal "influences" if you will: Nature and the Theories of spiritual momentum are influences that should be considered when discussing this topic.
 
  • #26
TampaUSA,

Is your avatar "mask" formed by two hands? More daunting that the usual puppetry.
 
  • #27
I dunno.. It was an avatar avialable within the profile settings.. I chose it cause it reminds me of what the fictional character XENU might have looked like..
 
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  • #28
"Logic means the ability to see everything in its true shape. It is the essence of understanding. Where there is no logic, ignorance covers everything under a layer of pretence."

Logic arises from the interactions between the most basic elements out of which the universe is composed. These interactions are governed by causality, hence causality is the essence of logic.

Any reasoning which does not acknowledge causality as defined by the universe itself is very likely to be flawed, leading to wrong conclusions, or "pretence".
 
  • #29
My theory is that logic is the means of communication from the super ego to the ego, basically the ego understands actions and simplicity, the super ego or cerebral cortex is a lying machine, or imagination machine, or analyzing device, the reason using reason and being honest improves the mind is because it is the proper method of communication between the two.
I mean if you understood that the reason we make so many mistakes is partly because we need things to get irritated about, would you still be able to push yourself deliberately to new heights in order to get that medicinal daily requirement of irritation? If you never come to accept and understand your nature and actions then your actions will control you, one ought to take actions deliberately according to their true nature with an eventual constructive intent.
Or perhaps logic is sometimes fantasy that happens to make things better...in the hard reality but not fantasy...like the saying that the logical solution isn't always the right solution, so that all fantasy must be tested with logic for it's practicalness in reality...therefore one's imagination may be determined in part by their logical ability to wield it and make long term good use of it.
 
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  • #30
dunno,

logic to me just represents an understanding of cause and effect of various aspects (which is pretty much similar to common sense), but more focused on mathematics

eg.
math - the result of 1 + 1 is 2
binary - if not 0, must be 1
fight - it hurts (effect) when you are hit with a bat (cause)
talking - verbal abuse may cause disputes
walking - move one leg at a time to walk
...
 
  • #31
I think of logic as the best way. The quickest, easiest way to do something is usually the logical way. It's the way that best makes sense. But if we all think deferently, and will never come to a conclusion (most likely) than phillosiphy is illogical.
 
  • #32
Common sense is all based on asumptions. And we all know what asumptions are the mother of.

Logic, to me, is all about knowing cause and effect.

I'm a mechanic and sometimes we get new people who are doing training. Logic tells me that if I want to jack a car up, I do it on a strong part of the car, or something will go wrong.

We had one guy who was new. He placed it under where your feet go in a car. Which was rusty and couldn't handle holding up a ton, and the jack broke through. Either he knew to put it in a strong place, but >asumed< where he put it was strong, and was wrong, making him logical, or he did not think about cause and effect. As in, he did not wonder if it would be safe to lift a car by a rusty floor.
 
  • #33
Loren Booda said:
Have any of you heard John Archibald Wheeler's argument that the physical universe is reducible to binary logic?
Can you give a reference or links for this? I'd like to know his argument.
 
  • #34
Can you give a reference or links for this? - Canute

Look at the last (?) chapter of Gravitation, by M.T.W. It's got Wheeler's style written all over it, so I suspect he was the one who wrote the logic chapter. Whether he has gone into the same idea in more detail elsewhere, I do not know.
 
  • #35
Thanks for that.
 
  • #36
CronoSpark said:
dunno,

logic to me just represents an understanding of cause and effect of various aspects (which is pretty much similar to common sense), but more focused on mathematics
Logic does deal with cause and effect and quantitative analysis, but it is more than that.

Logic is the correct interpretation of reality from quantitative, qualitative and positional perspectives. It is resolved from the application of observations and definitions which result in conclusions which fit the parameters of all observations and definitions simultaneously - like an equation solved for all variables.

It is a human function - and as such it is porne to eroror.
 
  • #37
And prone to disagreement.
 
  • #38
Cause And Effect

Can logic consider the possibility that any common membrane of which our universe is comprised might holistically, actively, and continuously pulsate in sync with the building block strings with which physicists’ hypotheses presently seem so enamored? If so, might the apparent sequences of events that we see over time be the results of an animating puppet master who is only limited by the parameters of the strings? If so, it would seem that our experiences and logic might lead us to understand some of the parameters of the strings, but not necessarily the entirety of any vision or function that animates them.
 
  • #39
Dlanorrenrag said:
Can logic consider the possibility that any common membrane of which our universe is comprised might holistically, actively, and continuously pulsate in sync with the building block strings with which physicists’ hypotheses presently seem so enamored? If so, might the apparent sequences of events that we see over time be the results of an animating puppet master who is only limited by the parameters of the strings? If so, it would seem that our experiences and logic might lead us to understand some of the parameters of the strings, but not necessarily the entirety of any vision or function that animates them.

I think you might like this:

http://xxx.lanl.gov/PS_cache/hep-th/pdf/0011/0011065.pdf

Also, follow the references to Tegmark, who argues along the same lines.
 
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  • #40
Lawyers #!$*^@*&!

I am only a dumb lawyer who falls towards the lower levels that are acceptable to Mensa. So, I apologize that I can only guess that you would have me refer to page 17, paragraphs 1 and 2. If so, they give me a vague, analogous feel for an application, but I am not getting direct relevance.

(I will see if I can find M. Tegmark, Annals Phys 270, 1 (1998) [gr-qc/9704009] on line.)
 
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  • #41
Dlanorrenrag said:
Can logic consider the possibility that any common membrane of which our universe is comprised might holistically, actively, and continuously pulsate in sync with the building block strings with which physicists’ hypotheses presently seem so enamored? If so, might the apparent sequences of events that we see over time be the results of an animating puppet master who is only limited by the parameters of the strings? If so, it would seem that our experiences and logic might lead us to understand some of the parameters of the strings, but not necessarily the entirety of any vision or function that animates them.

...And if the puppet master was a carpenter, is it not possible the pulsating of the strings may only be the throbbing of his thumb, which he (or Thor) hit with a hammer.

Sorry - just trying to be cuticle
 
  • #42
Thor'ism

Of interest would be whether Thor'ism, or whatever may be your philosophy of values, would apply Occam's Razor towards advocating values that could be asserted as reasonably consistent moral guidelines, or whether it would get bogged down in some totalitarian hammer fetish. If it only provided general moral precepts, I doubt it would be inconsistent with string theory. Do Thor'ists take their refreshments with self playing musical violins, as in Beauty and the Beast?
 
  • #43
Dlanorrenrag said:
Of interest would be whether Thor'ism, or whatever may be your philosophy of values, would apply Occam's Razor towards advocating values that could be asserted as reasonably consistent moral guidelines, or whether it would get bogged down in some totalitarian hammer fetish. If it only provided general moral precepts, I doubt it would be inconsistent with string theory. Do Thor'ists take their refreshments with self playing musical violins, as in Beauty and the Beast?
Did you know "Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessitatem" is actually Occam's recommendation for birth control?

Thor'ists have no morals, only instincts - no strings attached (they are rather quarky in that regard).

And as for refreshments, they frequently get hammered and enjoy the self playing violins during the light show.
 
  • #44
Thor

Do Thor'ists have any consistent grounds for arguing pro or con about any political choice, other than immediate, base, personal instincts? Are there differences among pure, literalistic Thor'ists and enlightened Thor'ists? Visionary or "enlightened" instincts? Why, or why not? Do Thor'ists articulate how we should address concerns about any political or business decisions? What about decisons that affect the environment? Or whether or not to go to war? To engage in nuclear non-proliferation efforts? To provide aid during famine? To respect social investments in arts or traditions?

Do Thor'ists rationalize their concerns as correctly instinctual, but others' efforts to ascertain grounds for moral parameters as folly? Do Thor'ists appreciate art other than undisturbed nature? What is undisturbed nature?

Making light of value philosophy can certainly be entertaining, but is it instinctual? Is making a good beer or a good joke instinctual? Do Thor'ists distinguish between good and bad beer?

Do skeptics seek truth by testing all approaches, under an assumption that one might remain that will be immune from denigration from all approaches? Or, is it a skeptic's truth that there is no truth? Do Thor'ists think no one of old appreciated that Thor was only a metaphor? Is rationalizing or metaphorizing choices instinctual?

Can Thor occasionally appreciate the Easter Bunny? Or, can logic and observation answer either or both all our questions and all our needs about cause and effect? Is there a logical basis for assuming the validity of logic in answering all questions and needs? Or, as we approach the outer reaches of science and values, is it **possible that some of our underlying assumptions about the nature of cause and effect may be found wanting**? At some points in time and space, might we need or be entitled to "invent ourselves" and take charge of our own answers? In fact, is that what Thor'ists sometimes instinctively do?
 
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  • #45
Dlanorrenrag said:
Do Thor'ists have any consistent grounds for arguing pro or con about any political choice, other than immediate, base, personal instincts? Are there differences among pure, literalistic Thor'ists and enlightened Thor'ists? Visionary or "enlightened" instincts? Why, or why not? Do Thor'ists articulate how we should address concerns about any political or business decisions? What about decisons that affect the environment? Or whether or not to go to war? To engage in nuclear non-proliferation efforts? To provide aid during famine? To respect social investments in arts or traditions?
Actually most thor'ists are libertarians
Do Thor'ists rationalize their concerns as correctly instinctual, but others' efforts to ascertain grounds for moral parameters as folly? Do Thor'ists appreciate art other than undisturbed nature? What is undisturbed nature?
dirt
Making light of value philosophy can certainly be entertaining, but is it instinctual? Is making a good beer or a good joke instinctual? Do Thor'ists distinguish between good and bad beer?
OK...OK...Now you've gone TOO FAR - You know as well as I there IS NO BAD BEER ! ! !
Do skeptics seek truth by testing all approaches, under an assumption that one might remain that will be immune from denigration from all approaches? Or, is it a skeptic's truth that there is no truth? Do Thor'ists think no one of old appreciated that Thor was only a metaphor? Is rationalizing or metaphorizing choices instinctual?
have you browsed Theory of Reciprocity
Can Thor occasionally appreciate the Easter Bunny? Or, can logic and observation answer either or both all our questions and all our needs about cause and effect? Is there a logical basis for assuming the validity of logic in answering all questions and needs? Or, as we approach the outer reaches of science and values, is it **possible that some of our underlying assumptions about the nature of cause and effect may be found wanting**? At some points in time and space, might we need or be entitled to "invent ourselves" and take charge of our own answers? In fact, is that what Thor'ists sometimes instinctively do?
I met the Easter Bunny this very morning - he was DELICIOUS. And yes, cause and effect is not the end-all answer to the phenomenon of existence. And I have always continuously strived to re-invent myself. . . today I am an Oldsmobile.
 
  • #46
Reciprocity, Balance, and Will

Messiah, aka Thor: Thanks for the reference to In The Beginning, by John P. Mcnally, 2003, at http://www.theory-of-reciprocity.com/genesis.htm . To quote from it:

“But existence is not a condition or a state of being, it is being, itself. Before something can change - act or be acted upon - it must first exist. And if being is required in order for change to occur then cause and effect is a function of existence. This is the very antithesis of the premise that existence is a function of cause and effect.
….
The principle of cause and effect is, itself, evolved from a far more fundamental phenomenon commonly called the balance of nature. Balance is evident throughout the very fabric of the Universe.”

**************

To comment, I do feel more comfortable thinking about existence from a perspective of balance, subject to three main qualifications:

Firstly, and lately, I intuit that the very process of working from an assumption that there may have been a beginning might drive new discovery, even if the assumption itself may ultimately not be falsifiable.

Secondly, balance seems to require, from at least one perspective, that offsetting forces are equivalent. But, from another perspective, why would not the very existence of the system of balance itself play, at least to some extent, an indeterminate role in our equations, measurements and observations? Under chaos theory, not much indeterminacy at all is needed in order to afford room for vastly different results in complex systems---such as human consciousness.

When we observe associated sequential patterns, they will often appear to have significantly reliable predictive value. In shorthand, we might say that one pattern “causes” the other. However, from a different perspective, we might intuit that the contemporaneous agent of cause may have actually been much wider.

Of course, that intuition is not particularly helpful in celebrating our day to day lives or our applications of beer drinking technologies. But, it may be helpful in leaving more room for faith in values. I am not smart enough to convey why that room for faith seems so important. But, John Stuart Mill was an astute fellow, and, if I recall correctly, he labored under depression for quite some time, which he attributed, at least in part, to being in despair about the concept of determinism.

It is for “God” and you—certainly not me—to look into your heart of hearts and know upon what basis, if any, you divide good from evil. For those who believe they are able to make good choices without ever needing a spiritual basis, more power to them. Many claim that power. However, any managing of society apparently necessitates managing many more who need spiritual beliefs to light their ways to moral decisions and meaningful lives. As Mister Rogers quoted of Saint-Exupery, from The Little Prince, “L’essential est invisible pour les yeux.” [See http://www.genderpsychology.org/girl/little_prince.html.; http://www.earthrays.com/.]

Regardless of proof, merely *leaving open the possibility* that we are connected to a fundamental category of spiritual essence might foster a view of the Golden Rule as more a matter of enlightened self interest than a matter of selflessness.

Thirdly, given perfect balance, why could not a perspective of synchronized movement, manifested through all matter, including ourselves, be considered as an expression of a higher will in which our expressions are participatory---*without in any way stepping on science’s turf?* Given perfect balance, why suppose that we lack even vicarious participation in effecting choices? (I forget his name, but I think the man behind Bell Helicopter might have some mathematical way of viewing free will as being at right angles with something like balance.)

At present, that seems to work for me. My “sister,” Alice, however, is in Stringland, where, consistent with Fave patterns of Sysverse, the Wilance of Identarity is Votracted by Beliefcentities into Grulignment against Nothsets. Her Valutons bend through Practals towards Spiritilation and into Chodimensions that are attached to Mindbranes, leading her towards infinite Artropy.
 
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  • #47
Logic refines truth and dismisses falsity.
 
  • #48
Dlanorrenrag said:
Messiah, aka Thor: Thanks for the reference to In The Beginning, by John P. Mcnally, 2003, at http://www.theory-of-reciprocity.com/genesis.htm . To quote from it:

“But existence is not a condition or a state of being, it is being, itself. Before something can change - act or be acted upon - it must first exist. And if being is required in order for change to occur then cause and effect is a function of existence. This is the very antithesis of the premise that existence is a function of cause and effect.
….
The principle of cause and effect is, itself, evolved from a far more fundamental phenomenon commonly called the balance of nature. Balance is evident throughout the very fabric of the Universe.”

**************

To comment, I do feel more comfortable thinking about existence from a perspective of balance, subject to three main qualifications:

Firstly, and lately, I intuit that the very process of working from an assumption that there may have been a beginning might drive new discovery, even if the assumption itself may ultimately not be falsifiable.
If existence had a 'beginning' then existence is - by definition - a process. Process is nothing more than change. But, before you can have change you must have existence. A process cannot preceed itself, hence existence cannot be a process and there was no 'beginning'.
Secondly, balance seems to require, from at least one perspective, that offsetting forces are equivalent. But, from another perspective, why would not the very existence of the system of balance itself play, at least to some extent, an indeterminate role in our equations, measurements and observations? Under chaos theory, not much indeterminacy at all is needed in order to afford room for vastly different results in complex systems---such as human consciousness.
Forces are a result of change. Forces are always equivalent according to Newton's law . . and even the structure of a mathematical equation. But I contend that not only are forces equivalently opposed, but qualitative values are also equal and opposite. Qualities - not forces.

Chaos . . . certainly it exists. Within the finite volume of each entity there are an infinite number of points. Each point has a qualitative value which acts and reacts as part of the whole as a variable. An infinite selection of variables constitutes randomness - certainly a randomness within the parameters of the quality in question - but still a form of chaos if you will.
When we observe associated sequential patterns, they will often appear to have significantly reliable predictive value. In shorthand, we might say that one pattern “causes” the other. However, from a different perspective, we might intuit that the contemporaneous agent of cause may have actually been much wider.
Again - an infinite variety of variables within and without the boundary of any given subject. Everything reacts to both itself and everything in its environment (which is the infinite Universe).
Of course, that intuition is not particularly helpful in celebrating our day to day lives or our applications of beer drinking technologies. But, it may be helpful in leaving more room for faith in values. I am not smart enough to convey why that room for faith seems so important. But, John Stuart Mill was an astute fellow, and, if I recall correctly, he labored under depression for quite some time, which he attributed, at least in part, to being in despair about the concept of determinism.
There can be no determinism when every element has a degree of randomness. True that outcomes are constrained by the parameters of the given quality or attributes of the subject, but they are not totally predictable. There is a wide RANGE of possible outcomes in the set.
It is for “God” and you—certainly not me—to look into your heart of hearts and know upon what basis, if any, you divide good from evil. For those who believe they are able to make good choices without ever needing a spiritual basis, more power to them. Many claim that power. However, any managing of society apparently necessitates managing many more who need spiritual beliefs to light their ways to moral decisions and meaningful lives. As Mister Rogers quoted of Saint-Exupery, from The Little Prince, “L’essential est invisible pour les yeux.” [See http://www.genderpsychology.org/girl/little_prince.html.; http://www.earthrays.com/.]

Regardless of proof, merely *leaving open the possibility* that we are connected to a fundamental category of spiritual essence might foster a view of the Golden Rule as more a matter of enlightened self interest than a matter of selflessness.

Thirdly, given perfect balance, why could not a perspective of synchronized movement, manifested through all matter, including ourselves, be considered as an expression of a higher will in which our expressions are participatory---*without in any way stepping on science’s turf?* Given perfect balance, why suppose that we lack even vicarious participation in effecting choices? (I forget his name, but I think the man behind Bell Helicopter might have some mathematical way of viewing free will as being at right angles with something like balance.)
The Universe is omnipotent - it contains ALL power. It is; however, as omniscient as it is dumb - and all degrees in between.

At present, that seems to work for me. My “sister,” Alice, however, is in Stringland, where, consistent with Fave patterns of Sysverse, the Wilance of Identarity is Votracted by Beliefcentities into Grulignment against Nothsets. Her Valutons bend through Practals towards Spiritilation and into Chodimensions that are attached to Mindbranes, leading her towards infinite Artropy.
Don't you just HATE IT when that happens. X-lax seems to help. I got over it by dipping my pinky into moulten lead.
 
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  • #49
Kerrie said:
For those of us who are still learning and understanding philosophy, can we differentiate logic in the most simple terms?

(Side note[skippable :biggrin: ]-"Differentiate" can be used in both a transitive and intransitive sense, so I think, in that respect, the sentence is correct. Though Kerrie could mean "can we differentiate logic from other branches of philosophy?", I assume that by "differentiate" Kerrie means "to express the specific distinguishing quality of", which would be the transitive sense, if my understanding of transitive is correct. I would guess that Kerrie chose "differentiate" over "define" since "differentiate" better implies a *unique* defintion, as opposed to a possibly ambiguous one. However, I would change "most simple" to "simplest", since I don't think Kerrie means "the greatest number of simple terms". This side note is not completely irrelevant to the question, but I'll leave it as a side note anyway...)

I'm surpised no one has said, "Logic is what logicians do." The mathematicians were all over that one :wink:

The question seems to be asking for an *introductory* definition. The way many of you, who are familiar with logic, would define logic *to yourselves* will likely include terms that are more precise and complex than their "common usage" counterparts.
This question also reminds me of a Feynman anecdote which goes something like: A reporter asked Feynman if he could explain, in one sentence, why he was awarded the Nobel prize. Feynman replied that if he could explain it in one sentence, it wouldn't have been worth the Nobel prize.
With all that in mind, the best answer I have is this:
Logic begins by removing ambiguity from your thoughts and the language you use to express them, because logic also begins with the letter "L".

Happy thoughts
Rachel

BTW the subtitle of the Logic forum is "How should we reason" :)
 
  • #50
Logic: Model of good-thinking. I don't know how right he was, but my lecturer told me it is just a model of good thinking that humans do - and as a model it also has its limitations. I personally think that we 'impose' logic on ourselves too much. Its best when it comes naturally - but not all of us can do that, that easily.
 
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