What Does the Russian Word Poshlost Really Mean?

[wrobel]

In Russian there is a word that is very hard to translate in English. Vladimir Nabokov believed that there is no English equivalent. This word is пошлость (pronounces poshlost). Very approximately speaking, this word expresses a negative esthetic estimate of something which claims to be exalted while actually it is banal and routinely. It is just one aspect of this concept.
For example, if you watch TV and encounter a legend about King Arthur in a tooth brush advertising.
This is poshlost as well:
Let's collect here untranslatable words from different languages. (With explanation surely:)

 

[PeroK]

Milan Kundera said the same thing about the Czech word litost: 'a state of agony and torment created by the sudden sight of one’s own misery'.

He said: “As for the meaning of this word, I have looked in vain in other languages for an equivalent, though I find it difficult to imagine how anyone can understand the human soul without it.”

 

[BWV]

Saudade

is a key emotion word for Portuguese speakers. Though akin to nostalgia or longing, the term has no direct equivalent in English. As the Brazilian musician Gilberto Gil sings in ‘Toda saudade’, it is the presence of absence, ‘of someone or some place – of something, anyway’. One can have saudades (the singular and plural forms are interchangeable) for people or places, as well as sounds, smells, and foods. One can even have saudades for saudade itself. That is because ‘it is good to have saudades’ (é bom ter saudades), as the common saying goes. There is a certain pleasure in the feeling. Though painful, the sting of saudades is a reminder of a good that came before.

https://aeon.co/ideas/saudade-the-untranslateable-word-for-the-presence-of-absence

 

[fresh_42]

Oh there are many, many words in a given language which cannot be translated into another, at least not by its real meaning. Sometimes they are just incorporated which leads to funny sentences in the eye of a native speaker. Ansatz is such an example of a German word used in English which always looks displaced to me. And there are many more. Butterbrot and Schlagbaum are two German words which made it into Russian if I'm right. Whether Bistro (=diner) stems from бы́стро is controversial, but dawai (=дава́ть) made it into our standard dictionary.

Anyway, my two standard examples for untranslatable are:

• schweigen (German), which means being silent, but not nearly as passive as the English translation suggests. It is a kind of an active silence, a decision rather than a state.
• sophisticated (English), which is an all rounder that doesn't have a single translation to German.

 

[PeroK]

English has adopted a number of German words that we have nothing like: e.g. Schadenfreude, Bildungsroman, Zeitgeist, Wanderlust, Kitsch, Leitmotiv.

 

[Vanadium 50]

FarfigNewton!

 

[fresh_42]

English has adopted a number of German words that we have nothing like: e.g. Schadenfreude, Bildungsroman, Zeitgeist, Wanderlust, Kitsch, Leitmotiv.

Thanks, that you didn't mention the war.

 

[Mark44]

Whether Bistro (=diner) stems from бы́стро is controversial, but dawai (=дава́ть) made it into our standard dictionary.

Bistro and бы́стро seem awfully close to me, despite the opinions of some French linguists. I didn't realize that davai (imperative - give!) had made it into German. (Your w is my v.) Going the other way, kartoffel (potato) was adopted into Russian and other Slavic languages (I believe), pretty much unchanged except for transliteration into Cyrillic.

 

[fresh_42]

Bistro and бы́стро seem awfully close to me, despite the opinions of some French linguists. I didn't realize that davai (imperative - give!) had made it into German. (Your w is my v.) Going the other way, kartoffel (potato) was adopted into Russian and other Slavic languages (I believe), pretty much unchanged except for transliteration into Cyrillic.

dawai stands for "hurry up!" in German. And now that you said it, I still go with 'kartoshka' if I'm talking to myself in the supermarket.

 

[wrobel]

I didn't know that kartoffel is a German word too. A large number of German words in Russian is not strange: historically Russia accepted European culture mainly from Germany.
Russian two step academic degrees system is from Germany as well as I understand

 

[fresh_42]

There is a Slavic minority in Germany since centuries and their language is an official one in that corner of the country. Europe is only a small, Asian peninsula, and Moscow is just 2-3 hours away - no big deal.

 

[Klystron]

Common Thai phrases and words often carry deep meaning and connotations not only difficult to translate but difficult to fully comprehend by farangs, foreigners not raised within Thai culture.

The common expression my pen lai ostensibly means "you are welcome" in response to khup Khun, "thank you". Culturally, my pen lai refers to an entire gamut of sabi bu, 'feeling fine'; including an unstated but subtle relaxation of social status and wish to share this internal happiness. My pen lai, I could have selected several other common expressions, describes a state of mind, of being, far beyond the often phatic expression "You're welcome!".

Say, as an unwitting farang, I directly address the abbot of a wat (monastery) with khup Khun, Khrup! The flustered monk may politely nod then look away. But if the saffron-robed elder smiles and responds my pen rai then I am invited to share a brief moment; perhaps comment on the tranquility of the wat, the breeze that swirls the scent of incense through the open pavilion ruffling the thin bits of gold foil adorning the placid statuary.

 

[wrobel]

Milan Kundera said the same thing about the Czech word litost: '

Interesting what would a native English speaker said about such a translation litost=cosuffering
I know that there is no such a word in English:)

 

[Mark44]

A large number of German words in Russian is not strange: historically Russia accepted European culture mainly from Germany.

It is my understanding that the court language of Tsar Peter (the Great) was French.

 

[PeroK]

Interesting what would a native English speaker said about such a translation litost=cosuffering
I know that there is no such a word in English:)

The nearest we have is self-pity.

 

[fresh_42]

It is my understanding that the court language of Tsar Peter (the Great) was French.

Yes, but he had Dutch ship constructors, Euler, Bering, German craftsmen and land surveyors, too. Russia wasn't nearly as isolated as we, who grow up in the cold war, may think. And don't forget Catherine the Great.

 

[fresh_42]

The nearest we have is self-pity.

But isn't co-suffering something else? As I understand it, it is the phenomenon that people living with someone who suffers, e.g. depression, alcoholism, etc. tend to show similar behavior, or at least suffer under the situation.

Another word I am missing is "fremdschämen". It means that someone is ashamed for what someone else is doing, too embarrassing to watch. This can happen watching a movie, or a real person. And it often happens on vacations. We all know these countrymen abroad who behave terribly, and we feel ashamed for them just because we have the same passport.

 

[PeroK]

But isn't co-suffering something else? As I understand it, it is the phenomenon that people living with someone who suffers, e.g. depression, alcoholism, etc. tend to show similar behavior, or at least suffer under the situation.

Yes, litost is nearer to self-pity.

 

[wrobel]

It is my understanding that the court language of Tsar Peter (the Great) was French

French come later in time of Russian Empress Catherine-II (German Princess Sophie of Anhalt-Zerbst)

 

[PeroK]

It is my understanding that the court language of Tsar Peter (the Great) was French.

The motto of the British monarch remains to this day "Dieu et mon droit".

 

[wrobel]

There is a Slavic minority in Germany since centuries and their language is an official one

and which language do they speak?

 

[pinball1970]

I always thought Ideges was an interesting one.

A Hungarian word that was described to me as the feeling that someone had just walked over ones grave.

Google translate just gives “nervous” when translated to English.

 

[DennisN]

Another word I am missing is "fremdschämen". It means that someone is ashamed for what someone else is doing, too embarrassing to watch.

We have a new, pretty funny, word in Swedish: skämskudde (which roughly means "embarrassement pillow".
From wiktionary:

From skämmas (“to be embarrassed”) +‎ kudde (“pillow; (couch) cushion”). It refers to the idea of seeing something so embarrassing that one gets the urge to hide one's face in a pillow or couch cushion, for example when watching a television program from a couch. The word has been attested in writing from at least 2002 and was possibly used as early as the 1980s.

I also remember reading a fun article about Japanese words that don't translate well. I will see if I can find it again.

 

[DennisN]

I also remember reading a fun article about Japanese words that don't translate well. I will see if I can find it again.

I didn't find the article I was thinking of, but I found another article on Lonely Planet with two of the words I was thinking of:
(Article: "Words that don't (but should) exist in English")

"Age-otori" (Japanese): To look worse after a haircut. (though the existence of the word is questioned in the article).

"Arigata meiwaku" (Japanese): 'Misplaced kindness' or 'unwelcome kindness'. I remember this one described as when someone does you an unwelcome favor which misfired, causing harm. In Swedish we have a word with roughly the same meaning, "björntjänst" (which roughly means "bear favor"):

a disservice, a mistaken kindness, a misguided helpfulness, an attempted favor which turns out to be detrimental, or at least causes more damage than it helps

 

[fresh_42]

and which language do they speak?

They have their own language, two to be exact https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs

 

[fresh_42]

In Swedish we have a word with roughly the same meaning, "björntjänst" (which roughly means "bear favor"):

We have a similar word "Bärendienst": a service which better wouldn't have been given.

 

[Klystron]

Some once-popular American English words fail to translate across borders. Many news articles from the 1960's and 1970's discussed "hippies". I understand Russian language papers translated hippie as "vagabond", "hooligan" or "delinquent", the latter also a popular term in America at that time.

While ostensibly valid translations of the colloquial expression "hippie", they lack the common associations conveyed by the English-language newspaper writers; such as "long-haired", "unwashed", "poorly but colorfully dressed", "unshaven", "lazy", "unmotivated", "stoned", and "childish". "Vagabond" and "hooligan" could be applied to other groups or 'subcultures' -- a popular expression then -- such as gypsies, bums, hoboes or mummers. The 'child of nature', 'cosmic wanderer' and alternate music fan tropes became lost with "hippie" translated to "hooligan", essentially a criminal.

 

[Rive]

I always thought Ideges was an interesting one.

A Hungarian word that was described to me as the feeling that someone had just walked over ones grave.

Google translate just gives “nervous” when translated to English.

Sorry to kill that, but 'nervous' is absolutely correct (or it's me not understanding correctly what 'nervous' means ).

Ps.: regarding that grave-thing... well, it has no such meaning in particular.

 

[wrobel]

Ansatz is such an example of a German word used in English which always looks displaced to me.

I feel the same about the Polish word spacerowac (to walk) :)
it is not surprise when one special term jumps from one language to another one but when an absolutely ordinary word behaves in such a way, that is miracle

 

[pinball1970]

Sorry to kill that, but 'nervous' is absolutely correct (or it's me not understanding correctly what 'nervous' means ).

Ps.: regarding that grave-thing... well, it has no such meaning in particular.

Yes, stone dead.

I learned that “fact” in 1991 trusting the source (her father was Hungarian)

 

[electronerd122]

I'm loving the flat of The Flag of Upper Lusatia. That reminds me something big time

 

[Keith_McClary]

Tsundoku (Japanese: 積ん読) is acquiring reading materials but letting them pile up in one's home without reading them.[1][2][3] It is also used to refer to books ready for reading later when they are on a bookshelf.

 

[haushofer]

English has adopted a number of German words that we have nothing like: e.g. Schadenfreude, Bildungsroman, Zeitgeist, Wanderlust, Kitsch, Leitmotiv.

In Dutch "schadenfreude" is "leedvermaak". We even have the saying "het beste vermaak is leedvermaak" (the best type of fun is "Schadenfreude").

A typical authentic Dutch word is "gezellig", which means something like "cosy".

 

[DennisN]

In Dutch "schadenfreude" is "leedvermaak". We even have the saying "het beste vermaak is leedvermaak" (the best type of fun is "Schadenfreude").

Wow. We have a similar saying in Swedish which means the same ("den enda sanna glädjen är skadeglädjen").

 

[fresh_42]

Wow. We have a similar saying in Swedish which means the same ("den enda sanna glädjen är skadeglädjen").

Same here in Germany. "Schadenfreude ist die schönste Freude." Not really so surprising, given that all three languages share a common origin. It is more interesting why English does not. If, then they wouldn't had to import the word.

 

[Vanadium 50]

"We don't just borrow words; on occasion, English has pursued other languages down alleyways to beat them unconscious and rifle their pockets for new vocabulary."

 

[LCSphysicist]

Gambiarra, a brazillian portuguese word XD. About its meaning... Just see the images below that maybe you will understand rs

It is like to solve a problem, but, not really by the right way, using the only materials we have at the moment rs.

 

[Keith_McClary]

Gambiarra, a brazillian portuguese word XD. About its meaning... Just see the images below that maybe you will understand rs

It is like to solve a problem, but, not really by the right way, using the only materials we have at the moment rs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=redneck+repairs&tbm=isch

 

[BillTre]

Would that be like MacGyvering?

When one "MacGyvers" a solution to a problem, one finds a simple yet elegant solution using existing resources. This is in contrast to a kludge, or a Rube Goldberg, which is generally complicated and problematic.

 

[strangerep]

In the late 1990's, I worked as an ex-pat S/W contractor in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Although English is widely spoken there, I made an effort every day to learn at least one or two new words of Malay/Indonesian (they call it just "Bahasa").

Some of my fellow expats were rather arrogant and dismissive of Bahasa compared to English, citing the way it uses a double-word to express plural. Then one day I became aware that of the words "kita" and "kami" translate (naively) to "we". I asked a Malaysian colleague to explain the distinction, and he actually had to go away for a little while to think about it, then returned with an explanation.

Are there any PF Malaysian/Indonesian speakers reading this? If so, how would you explain the distinction to an ignorant English-only speaker? (No googling allowed!)

[I'll leave the real point of this post to a subsequent episode...]

 

[fresh_42]

Somehow reminds me of ...

The Russian Space Station Mir endured 15 years in orbit, three times its planned lifetime.

https://history.nasa.gov/SP-4225/mir/mir.htm

 

[Vanadium 50]

Gambiarra, a brazillian portuguese word

The French word for that is "bricolage".

 

[Rive]

Sorry to kill that

Well, just got some nominates for 'untranslatable' words.

The first one mentioned is 'káröröm'. Too bad, I think 'gloat' would cover it, at least within the usual range of error related to translations. it's kind of like the 'schadenfreude' above: having fun on somebody else's harm.

The next one is far better: 'tenyérbemászó': 'climbing into palm', more or less. It's often used regarding someone's face: when the other is so irritating that his face is asking for your palm/for a slap... I could not find a fitting word or phrase, maybe somebody else can kill it?

The third is 'pihentagyú'. 'Bored/rested brained', maybe. It's about the mindset producing painful (but not necessarily faulty!) ideas.

Ps.: ooops, just noticed something: these (as most of out suspected untranslatables) are composite words. We are easy to produce these, so I guess it's abolutely legit to translate them as phrases instead of words.

 

[fresh_42]

... are composite words. We are easy to produce these ...

This is the understatement of the day!

folyamatellenőrzésiügyosztályvezetőhelyettesképesítésvizsgálat​

 

[Rive]

This is the understatement of the day!

folyamatellenőrzésiügyosztályvezetőhelyettesképesítésvizsgálat​

I see absolutely no problem with that.
... exactly that's why it can be called easy

 

[Hornbein]

Isn't it strange that the English word "must" has no past tense. We have to resort to "had to."

Indonesian has some useful words missing from English. Rindu is "longing for the absent beloved." Kena means "to be struck adversely." The English equivalent is "negative impact," which physicists should surely disdain.

In Indonesian any word can be turned into a noun, verb, adjective, or abstract noun by using prefixes and suffixes so there are many words that are not present in English. The Bali town of Penestanan uses a prefix and two suffixes to mean "the place of practitioners of black magic." Menyenangkan means "that which causes to become happy." You could translate it as "happyifying." A terlaluan is "a thing that is too much."

Indonesian has no curse words. They do it in English. It is a major insult to say someone is "kurang ajar," which means "has less learning."

But what of something truly untranslateable? I don't know Japanese, having refused to learn it because the language is a huge kludge. It is so ambiguous that the same utterance can have dozens if not hundreds of meanings. I've read that this is a popular game. I suppose it would be possible to take a sentence and enumerate each of the many possible meanings of each word and let the reader puzzle it out, but I have yet to see this done. I also suspect that there is a lot of emphasis on the appearance of the Chinese characters. There's no distinction between poetry and caligraphy. Some bland talk may look nice. Or a sort of punning in that a character looks like some other that sounds completely different. So a literal translation misses pretty much everything, leaving the reader with "this is supposed to be poetry?" feeling. Maybe all this is translatable in a sense, but the result would be so verbose no one ever seems to bother to do it. Though all this is more or less guessing on my part.

 

[sbrothy]

In Russian there is a word that is very hard to translate in English. Vladimir Nabokov believed that there is no English equivalent. This word is пошлость (pronounces poshlost). Very approximately speaking, this word expresses a negative esthetic estimate of something which claims to be exalted while actually it is banal and routinely. It is just one aspect of this concept.
For example, if you watch TV and encounter a legend about King Arthur in a tooth brush advertising.
This is poshlost as well:
Let's collect here untranslatable words from different languages. (With explanation surely:)

There are a lot of words and expressions without a direct equivalent in English/Danish. Especially some of the short everyday words like "meh", "feh", and "welp". I have a hard time finding their equivalents in Danish. Most of them have pretty much just been added directly to or vocabulary.

Regards.

 

[Hornbein]

In the late 1990's, I worked as an ex-pat S/W contractor in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Although English is widely spoken there, I made an effort every day to learn at least one or two new words of Malay/Indonesian (they call it just "Bahasa").

Some of my fellow expats were rather arrogant and dismissive of Bahasa compared to English, citing the way it uses a double-word to express plural. Then one day I became aware that of the words "kita" and "kami" translate (naively) to "we". I asked a Malaysian colleague to explain the distinction, and he actually had to go away for a little while to think about it, then returned with an explanation.

Are there any PF Malaysian/Indonesian speakers reading this? If so, how would you explain the distinction to an ignorant English-only speaker? (No googling allowed!)

[I'll leave the real point of this post to a subsequent episode...]

I'm no longer sure, but I'd say "kita" means "everyone here" while "kami" means "our group."

Indonesian is the traditional language of Medan, across the straight from Malaysia, so it's about 90% the same. There are a fair number of native Malaysians who cannot speak that language. The common language is actually English.

 

[symbolipoint]

There are a lot of words and expressions without a direct equivalent in English/Danish. Especially some of the short everyday words like "meh", "feh", and "welp". I have a hard time finding their equivalents in Danish. Most of them have pretty much just been added directly to or vocabulary.

Regards.

Upon trying to think about those, my only feeling is that those are not words. They are utterances, or sounds someone may make to show but not state a reaction.

 

[strangerep]

I'm no longer sure, but I'd say "kita" means "everyone here" while "kami" means "our group."

Yes, that's essentially how it was explained to me. I found it enlightening (and a bit humbling) that this language, which plenty of ignorant expats scorn, can in fact express concepts for which there is no direct (single word) representation in English.

Indonesian is the traditional language of Medan, across the straight from Malaysia, so it's about 90% the same. There are a fair number of native Malaysians who cannot speak that language. The common language is actually English.

Certainly English is widely spoken, but I wouldn't have said it is the "common" language of Malaysia.