US Education System: Academic vs Trade Schools

[ƒ(x)]

Why doesn't the US use an education system similar to the one used in China? One in which only those who deserve to go to school can. The majority of people in public schools are not there for academic pursuits and continually ruin the environment for those who are. Why shouldn't there been a split between trade and academic schools?

 

[Astronuc]

Why doesn't the US use an education system similar to the one used in China? One in which only those who deserve to go to school can. The majority of people in public schools are not there for academic pursuits and continually ruin the environment for those who are. Why shouldn't there been a split between trade and academic schools?

Public schools serve the public. There is the view that all members of socity are given an education, and in fact it's generally mandatory up to a certain age, usually when someone reaches adulthood.

Where I lived as a child/youth, there were vocational schools for those not planning on univeristy. At my high school, there were separate accelerated or honors programs for those who wanted higher level education for university. And there were private or dedicated high schools available for those who were qualified or could pay.

 

[ƒ(x)]

Public schools serve the public. There is the view that all members of socity are given an education, and in fact it's generally mandatory up to a certain age, usually when someone reaches adulthood.

Where I lived as a child/youth, there were vocational schools for those not planning on univeristy. At my high school, there were separate accelerated or honors programs for those who wanted higher level education for university. And there were private or dedicated high schools available for those who were qualified or could pay.

Then you were lucky.

 

[Astronuc]

Then you were lucky.

Yes - actually I was. My family moved so that I attended a different public high school for 11th and 12th grade.

I was in the AP (honors) group so I took the most advanced courses in mathematics (calculus), physics and chemistry. There were about 20 of us students in a group that took all three courses. Such a program was not available at the first high school I attended.

In 8th grade, like all 8th graders, I was given an opportunity to visit the main vocational school. I certainly was not interested, but many students were, because they were not inclined to attend university.

About the time I graduated from high school, the school district began to introduce magnate (or magnet) schools which specialized in particular academic programs, e.g., math & science, arts, and/or humanities. One had to qualify to attend those programs.

 

[Moonbear]

And how do you determine who "deserves" to go to school? The wealthy? The child prodigies?

The US considers that the best way to have a productive society is to ensure all members have a basic education provided through public schools. Those with the means to choose otherwise always have the option to select a private school, but we ensure that public schools are available to all others regardless of their parents' finances.

 

[ƒ(x)]

I understand that intellectual ability trancends financial status. I also understand that it is necessary to educate members of society. But, that was not my point; I was asking why there isn't a complete separation between people who choose to pursue a higher education and those who do not.

I attended private schools until 8th grade--the one I was at only went until 8th grade. I had the option of attending Thomas Jefferson High School, but since the commute was absolutely horrible my parents would have had to purchase an apartment close to the school. At the time I was not prepared for such a transition and opted to enroll at my local public school, a choice that I now regret. While I am in high level classes, the environment at my current school is much different than that of my middle school, a change that I attribute to less academically oriented students.

 

[Astronuc]

I understand that intellectual ability trancends financial status. I also understand that it is necessary to educate members of society. But, that was not my point; I was asking why there isn't a complete separation between people who choose to pursue a higher education and those who do not.

In other words, discriminate among people? That's problematic - especially if the discrimination is based on race, ethnicty and perhaps even economic status, i.e. if the discrimination is specious or malicious.

University is usually the point at which those who pursue higher education are separated from those who do not. It could happen earlier if academic programs are developed where one can choose between vocational programs/school and college preparatory programs/school.

 

[ƒ(x)]

In other words, discriminate among people? That's problematic - especially if the discrimination is based on race, ethnicty and perhaps even economic status, i.e. if the discrimination is specious or malicious.

but the discrimination would be based upon intelligence, or rather desire,not any of the traits you named. Can you think of a more unbiased method of discrimation?

 

[Integral]

but the discrimination would be based upon intelligence, not any of the traits you named. Can you think of a more unbiased method of discrimation?

All you need is a meaningful way to measure intelligence. Recall that Einstein was not a shining star in his early school days. Would you have shuttled him off to vocational school to be a shoe maker? Even today's IQ tests are frequently more a cultural test then a true measure of intelligence. I am afraid that the state of our understanding of the human mind is still a ways from being able to make this kind of judgement.

 

[ƒ(x)]

All you need is a meaningful way to measure intelligence. Recall that Einstein was not a shining star in his early school days

wasn't einstein considered a model student by many of his teachers?

 

[VeeEight]

wasn't einstein considered a model student by many of his teachers?

Try googling "It doesn't matter what he does, he will never amount to anything"

I seem to recall an episode of Numb3rs that dealt with a similar idea. It did not end well.

 

[Chi Meson]

Rather than emulating China, we could emulate all of the "free" industrialized countries that have compulsory education up to the age of 16.

 

[ƒ(x)]

All you need is a meaningful way to measure intelligence.

I agree with this statement.

Try googling "It doesn't matter what he does, he will never amount to anything"

I thought that there was only one teacher who said that. "Although Einstein had early speech difficulties, he was a top student in elementary school" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Early_life_and_education")

Rather than emulating China, we could emulate all of the "free" industrialized countries that have compulsory education up to the age of 16.

Which countries? I wasn't aware that this type of education existed.

 

[tmyer2107]

I understand that intellectual ability trancends financial status. I also understand that it is necessary to educate members of society. But, that was not my point; I was asking why there isn't a complete separation between people who choose to pursue a higher education and those who do not.

My high school was similar to Astronuc's, minues the AP classes. I think the way they offer the option of vocational school is the best way to do it. I don't know how much more separation you can have. At my high school the kids that attended votech as we called it would be with us for half the day then go to the vocational school for the other half. This was done to save money. If the votech school had to teach all the students their basic english/maths then it would cost them a lot more money. For a public school, I don't know how you would separate the students anymore than that.

 

[ƒ(x)]

My high school was similar to Astronuc's, minues the AP classes. I think the way they offer the option of vocational school is the best way to do it. I don't know how much more separation you can have. At my high school the kids that attended votech as we called it would be with us for half the day then go to the vocational school for the other half. This was done to save money. If the votech school had to teach all the students their basic english/maths then it would cost them a lot more money. For a public school, I don't know how you would separate the students anymore than that.

I wish that my school system was like this. Before this thread I was unaware that this type of education still existed.

 

[edpell]

Or we could go with a Sudbury Valley type education (see sudval.org) where people are free to pursue their life as they see fit. Freedom instead of violent force. I know it is so old fashion but I still like it.

 

[ƒ(x)]

Or we could go with a Sudbury Valley type education (see sudval.org) where people are free to pursue their life as they see fit. Freedom instead of violent force. I know it is so old fashion but I still like it.

Lol this one is new to me also

 

[tmyer2107]

I wish that my school system was like this.

I'm surprised it isn't, I thought most high schools were. I went to a very small public school, K-12 in one building, with about 75 people per grade. There weren't any AP classes or anything like that but they did have a votech program. I guess it depends on where your school is at. If it is within a reasonable distance to a lot of other high schools a vocational school could be opened that could take in students from all of these schools. If there aren't enough schools in the area that might not be a possibility.

 

[ƒ(x)]

I'm surprised it isn't, I thought most high schools were. I went to a very small public school, K-12 in one building, with about 75 people per grade. There weren't any AP classes or anything like that but they did have a votech program. I guess it depends on where your school is at. If it is within a reasonable distance to a lot of other high schools a vocational school could be opened that could take in students from all of these schools. If there aren't enough schools in the area that might not be a possibility.

My school does offer technical classes, if that's what you mean.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I thought that there was only one teacher who said that. "Although Einstein had early speech difficulties, he was a top student in elementary school" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Albert_Einstein#Early_life_and_education")

Apparently Einstein, himself, assessed his development of the theory of Relativity as being an epiphenomenon of having been developmentally lagging as a child:


" I sometimes ask myself how it came about that I was the one to develop the theory of relativity. The reason, I think, is that a normal adult never stops to think about problems of space and time. These are things which he has thought about as a child. But my intellectual development was retarded, as a result of which I began to wonder about space and time only when I had already grown up. "

http://home-educate.com/quotes.shtml

 

[tmyer2107]

My school does offer technical classes, if that's what you mean.

Well then that would be the same thing as going to a vocational school minus the commute. At your school does a student have the option to take technical classes in automotive mechanics, robotics, cullinary arts, etc.?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Teach the best and burn the rest? One result of compulsory education is a generation of citizens who are capable of voting intelligently. This is not a priority in China.

 

[Chi Meson]

Which countries? I wasn't aware that this type of education existed.

Japan: Compulsory education ends at 16. 90% of all students continue for another two years and most of them go on to college, the other 10% "go to work."

Sweden: Compulsory education is between the ages of 7 to 16.

Finland (Rated by some to be the finest in the world): 6/7 to 15/16.

France: Compulsory education is between the ages of 6 and 16.

Canada: 6 to 16 (Except New Brunswick)

Germany: Compulsory education begins at 6 years. By the time they reach "middle -school grade," there is generally 3 tracks of "Middle-Highschool." "Hauptschule" is the most basic level, and comprises grades 5--9, with an optional grade 10. "Gymnasium" is the highest level that goes to 12th grade, with an "optional" 13th grade .

Switzerland: Compulsory education ends with "lower secondary school" (middle school) which is 9th grade.

England: They start early at 4 years, and go to 16 or 17.

Scotland: Start at 5 years, and end at 17.

Russia: Before 2007, compulsory education lasted for 9 years. Now it is 11, but a student may drop out at the age of 16 with approval from parents. Also, a student can be removed permanently from public school for disruption of classes starting at age 15.

Pretty much, put a name of a country followed by "compulsory education" into the search line, and you will find USA is very lonely with the idea that all people must stay in school for 12+ years.

 

[edpell]

I went to high school in the 70s in the US when everyone was equal and no tracking was allowed. I remember chemistry class 99% of the time was spent by the teacher trying to shut up one student who constantly disrupted. It was a waste of everyone's time.

You might ask why didn't the teacher expel the one disruptive student. The answer is the management would see the teacher as unable to handle students and punish the teacher. Think not talk with some teachers in public schools.

 

[ƒ(x)]

Teach the best and burn the rest? One result of compulsory education is a generation of citizens who are capable of voting intelligently. This is not a priority in China.

It doesn't matter if your average citizen votes intelligently. Electoral votes count instead of popular.

 

[edpell]

Voters seem to vote for whoever buys the most TV ad time. Not sure I see any signs of intelligence in the US voter.

 

[Noxide]

Why doesn't the US use an education system similar to the one used in China? One in which only those who deserve to go to school can. The majority of people in public schools are not there for academic pursuits and continually ruin the environment for those who are. Why shouldn't there been a split between trade and academic schools?

Ask the US.

 

[edpell]

Because the US system of "education" is not about learning it is about control. The system was designed by mill owners in the second half of the 1800s to produce docile workers with a minimum of the three Rs reading, riting, and rithmatic. It is still designed to produce docile workers. It does an excellent job of doing so. It is not broken it very well serves the function it was designed to serve.

check out sudval.org I am a staff member at a Sudbury School sudburyschool.org from the bios can you guess which one I am?

 

[ƒ(x)]

Ask the US.

Every individual in the US believes that they are important and unique.

 

[edpell]

See public schools work.

Don't ask where the twenty trillion dollars went.

 

[ƒ(x)]

See public schools work.

Don't ask where the twenty trillion dollars went.

 

[Born2bwire]

Heh. All my Chinese friends wish the Chinese system was like America's (or England/etc. I'm sure, but they probably only express preference for the American system since I am from the States). There are a lot of problems inherent in the Chinese system. The emphasis on exams is astronomical and has a very long history of cultural significance. Students spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on the exams alone because one exam will define where you go for your middle school another for high school, etc.

Instead, the US system allows the schools to cater to different levels so that everyone can receive both a decent education but hopefully one that caters to their abilities. My schools had remedial programs for students who lagged behind, and a bevy of honor programs for those that excelled. In addition, there are multiple levels of higher education from vocational schools, junior colleges, college, and university.

 

[edpell]

School is like everything else in a capitalist system "you get what you pay for". There are excellent schools in the US if you have the money Exeter, Choate, etc...

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

It doesn't matter if your average citizen votes intelligently. Electoral votes count instead of popular.

This is a misunderstanding of how the electoral system works. And there are only two elected offices that it pertains to.

 

[ƒ(x)]

This is a misunderstanding of how the electoral system works. And there are only two elected offices that it pertains to.

Which offices?

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

Which offices?

President and Vice President of the US.

 

[ƒ(x)]

Learn something new every day.

 

[zoobyshoe]

While I am in high level classes, the environment at my current school is much different than that of my middle school, a change that I attribute to less academically oriented students.

School is like everything else in a capitalist system "you get what you pay for". There are excellent schools in the US if you have the money Exeter, Choate, etc...

There's middle ground here. I went to small private college prep schools throughout high school on grants and scholarships. Students from wealthy families who can pay full tuition aren't necessarily the more academically oriented ones so these schools are prone to cast a kind financial eye on academically sincere applicants of lower income to help maintain the school's reputation for producing higher caliber graduates.

 

[kof9595995]

Heh. All my Chinese friends wish the Chinese system was like America's (or England/etc. I'm sure, but they probably only express preference for the American system since I am from the States). There are a lot of problems inherent in the Chinese system. The emphasis on exams is astronomical and has a very long history of cultural significance. Students spend an inordinate amount of time and energy on the exams alone because one exam will define where you go for your middle school another for high school, etc.

Instead, the US system allows the schools to cater to different levels so that everyone can receive both a decent education but hopefully one that caters to their abilities. My schools had remedial programs for students who lagged behind, and a bevy of honor programs for those that excelled. In addition, there are multiple levels of higher education from vocational schools, junior colleges, college, and university.

Accurate description.