What blue collar trade requires the most academic knowledge?

[zoobyshoe]

I'm startled that so many English speaking people here at physicsforums don't know the difference between a blue collar job and a white collar job! When I created this thread, it never occurred to me that that would even be an issue.

I have to agree with you. It's an extremely common, well understood, term, that is used confidently without definition in many sorts of discussions.

Blue-collar voters certainly make up the bulk of Trump’s large coalition, but he is also doing very well among Republicans with college degrees.[/QUOTE
http://www.politico.com/story/2016/03/5-myths-about-trump-supporters-220158

Alvarez is in town with the Orioles playing a three-game series here at Fenway Park. He and Price remain friends to this day. And Alvarez is confident Price's personality fits Boston well.

"I think that Boston's a very blue-collar city," Alvarez said. "I think they want their athletes to go out there and give them 100 percent every single time. And I think that's what you're going to get out of David: 100 percent effort, 100 percent of the time. He cares about the game. He respects the game. I think the people from here will appreciate that about him. He won't let them down in terms of that."

http://www.masslive.com/redsox/index.ssf/2016/04/david_prices_personality_fits.html

 

[russ_watters]

[flip]The question is well posed. It's meaning is clear and unequivocal.

Er:

Nobody outside of a few people on this message board would classify a nurse or a surgeon as blue collar. If a job has a requirement of a university education, it's not blue collar.

Where is that in the definition you posted? All that definition says is that they work with their hands. That is the flaw in your question: you want to know about education in blue collar work, yet you are applying a definition that doesn't mention education!

 

[russ_watters]

Can we please be sympathetic to non English speakers or non-US people please? I have no idea what blue or white collar is supposed to mean.

Heh - I'm an American and my point here is that it isn't clear-cut.

Do people who do physical labour wear shirts with blue collars??

They often do and that is indeed where the name comes from:

 

[russ_watters]

...engineers...

While engineering has become an academic discipline, that is relatively recent, evolving over the past 100 years. It started as a trade, learned as an apprentice. There are still engineers with Professional Engineer licenses who do not have degrees, though in the past 20 years most of that has been phased out and most such people are grandfathered. So this would be the opposite problem from the definition for nurses. My last boss worked his way up from draftsman to designer to engineer. So, what do we do with draftsmen? They used to be tradesmen and they drew by hand. Was that blue collar? Has it become white collar now that they draw with computers, even though the knowledge level is basically the same in scope (just different in method)?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Where does a CNC porgrammer fit? Many of them work primarily on factory floors, but others work primarily in offices.

Or surveyors? In the past, they needed some trig to interpret measurements with theodolites. Now a lot of work is done with GPS.

 

[bluemoonKY]

The people acting like the question of this thread is so ambiguous because I used the word blue collar are approaching this like you are some corporate lawyers making some multi-million dollar contract so you have to be extremely careful to make sure everything is extremely precise and unequivocal.

 

[bluemoonKY]

Vanadium, I don't know what the job description of a CNC Programmer even is. I don't even know what CNC stands for. A surveyor is a blue collar job.

 

[phinds]

A surveyor is a blue collar job.

Really? Many people would disagree w/ that since the entry level education for a surveyor is a bachelors degree. You continue to have this black-and-white view of something that isn't black and white.

Look, no one here is trying to give you a hard time, you just have this mindset that ignores modern job descriptions, many of which defy easy categorizations. You think it's black and white but most of us don't which is why some of the responses seem overly legalistic to you.

 

[1oldman2]

Vanadium, I don't know what the job description of a CNC Programmer even is. I don't even know what CNC stands for. A surveyor is a blue collar job.

I am assuming by now you have already searched "CNC Programmer", If that is the case I won't need to waste your time telling you they average about $40,000 to $45,000 per year and unless you uncle owns a machine shop you won't walk in off of the street and pick that job up without an apprenticeship or an OJT program at the very least, The higher end positions are definitely going to the guy with the degree as it is a fairly competitive field.
As far as people acting like the term "blue/white collar" is ambiguous that would be because the terms are from another era with much less "grey area", Currently we are living in a time where lines are much more blurred between such distinctions and I wouldn't be surprised If white/blue fades from use altogether. (To myself "blue collar" is a BTO song from the 70's)

 

[russ_watters]

The people acting like the question of this thread is so ambiguous because I used the word blue collar are approaching this like you are some corporate lawyers making some multi-million dollar
contract so you have to be extremely careful to make sure everything is extremely precise and unequivocal.

Lawyers aren't the only people for whom precision of wording is important. You are posting in a forum full of scientists and engineers!

 

[newjerseyrunner]

I would absolutely not consider someone working on an aircraft to be blue collar. We can usually identify what's blue collar and what isn't based on job title: Auto mechanic, aircraft technician. Programmer vs software engineer. Carpenter vs architect.

Are nurses blue collar workers? They do most of the manual labor of the patient care, where doctor tend to make the important decisions and do highly technical manual things (nurses disimpact bowels, doctors do neurosurgery.) Nurses, especially at the higher ranks (CRNP like my mother) tend to have masters degrees.

 

[SteamKing]

I would absolutely not consider someone working on an aircraft to be blue collar. We can usually identify what's blue collar and what isn't based on job title: Auto mechanic, aircraft technician. Programmer vs software engineer. Carpenter vs architect.

Well, not to be picky, but what does "working on an aircraft" mean? Is it the guy who washes the windshield and takes out the trash after the plane lands? Is it the flight attendant? Is it a mechanic or electrician checking something on the plane? The guy pumping out the toilet? The guy who refuels the plane?

Something as complex as an aircraft requires the talents of many different occupations to keep maintained and flying. There can't be all chiefs and no Indians involved.

 

[newjerseyrunner]

Well, not to be picky, but what does "working on an aircraft" mean? Is it the guy who washes the windshield and takes out the trash after the plane lands? Is it the flight attendant? Is it a mechanic or electrician checking something on the plane? The guy pumping out the toilet? The guy who refuels the plane?

Something as complex as an aircraft requires the talents of many different occupations to keep maintained and flying. There can't be all chiefs and no Indians involved.

I was making distinctions between mechanics specifically. A mechanic for an aircraft is a highly trained person, a mechanic for a car is far less.

 

[SteamKing]

I was making distinctions between mechanics specifically. A mechanic for an aircraft is a highly trained person, a mechanic for a car is far less.

You must not have visited an auto mechanic shop lately. Most mechanics for autos have to be certified to work on the vehicles they service, and the training is either provided by the auto manufacturers themselves or private training academies.

https://www.ase.com/Home.aspx

The days of the shade-tree auto mechanic are rapidly fading into the past. The typical mass market car is crammed with almost as much technology and electronics as the typical aircraft, and even mundane stuff like the body and chassis is being fabricated out of plastics and composites rather than just stamped steel.

 

[StatGuy2000]

There can't be all chiefs and no Indians involved.

I take it you are referring to Native Americans here is that correct? (in Canada the more common term is First Nations or Aboriginal people)? There are many posters here on PF from India who may be confused by your analogy above.

 

[SteamKing]

I take it you are referring to Native Americans here is that correct? (in Canada the more common term is First Nations or Aboriginal people)? There are many posters here on PF from India who may be confused by your analogy above.

No, it's a metaphor. You can't do a job with only bosses available.

 

[OrangeDog]

Such a strange group of people to take a simple inconsequential question so seriously. Just because you have an education or are a "scientist" doesn't mean you have to split hairs over stupid details. Lighten up, seriously.

 

[Evo]

What's a label? When I worked at AT&T my assistant had a PhD in English, I had a BS, she made over $70,000.00 annually as an hourly union worker, I was salaried management. She was brilliant and did my project management for me. I was considered white collar, she was considered blue collar. Now I ask you, what's the importance of such a label especially when it's meant to demean people it is applied to?

 

[zoobyshoe]

I would absolutely not consider someone working on an aircraft to be blue collar. We can usually identify what's blue collar and what isn't based on job title: Auto mechanic, aircraft technician. Programmer vs software engineer. Carpenter vs architect.

Are nurses blue collar workers? They do most of the manual labor of the patient care, where doctor tend to make the important decisions and do highly technical manual things (nurses disimpact bowels, doctors do neurosurgery.) Nurses, especially at the higher ranks (CRNP like my mother) tend to have masters degrees.

Not all jobs are either blue or white collar, and it was never considered that they were. The term "white collar" was coined to describe a certain class of workers first. Later, someone coined "blue collar" to describe another class. This class is distinct from the white collars, but there's no implication everyone is either one or the other. There are jobs outside those two classes. Eventually people got around to proposing collar colors for them:

In the late 1970s, the writer and social critic Louise Kappe Howe popularized pink collar workers as a term for those women consigned to work as nurses, secretaries and elementary school teachers. Meanwhile the environmental movement gave rise to “green-collar workers” (who work in conservation and sustainability), and the 1980s yielded a class of “gold-collar workers” (who work in specialized fields like law, engineering, and finance, or, according to a different definition, in the service industry). As the population ages, we may see more “grey-collar workers” (who work into their 60s). And the latest entrants are the “no-collar workers”—tech-industry professionals who eschew collars altogether.

http://www.slate.com/articles/busin..._white_collar_why_do_we_use_these_terms_.html

None of those later terms is as widely used as the original blue and white ones, but the point is, you don't have to be either or.

 

[Lord Anoobis]

I was making distinctions between mechanics specifically. A mechanic for an aircraft is a highly trained person, a mechanic for a car is far less.

Having spent thirteen years in aircraft mechanics I have to say this does not ring true. The training itself is neither aircraft specific nor in-depth. Most of the mechanic's ability comes from years of experience. The industry does, however, project an aura of superiority which is very much the opposite of what the work entails.

 

[bluemoonKY]

BluemoonKY has never put forth any effort in any of his posts to do even an initial google in order to provide any information.

How in the nation could you possibly know whether or not I've put forth any effort in any of my posts to do even an initial google in order to provide any information?

. Now I ask you, what's the importance of such a label especially when it's meant to demean people it is applied to?

I find there to frequently be a giant difference between blue collar jobs and white collar jobs. White collar jobs are jobs in which one typical works at a desk on a computer or with paperwork. Blue collar jobs are manual labor type jobs that don't require a university education where one works with his or her hands. Contrary to what some people have said on this thread, the terms are still used frequently and confidently in American life, and normal people don't find the use of the words objectionable either.

P.S. Why did you say "especially when it's meant to demean people it is applied to"? When did I or anyone else on this thread demean blue collar workers or white collar workers?

 

[OCR]

I obtained an A&P license in 1973...

Here is basically what it entailed:

http://www.faa.gov/mechanics/become/
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...6&mc=true&node=pt14.2.65&rgn=div5#sp14.2.65.d

I could not even take the FAA tests without going to school...

The school was an FAA Certified Repair Station... under supervision of course, we could work on real "live" airplanes, owned by the general public....

An A&P Mechanic would probably be classified as a blue collar worker... with a very clean collar, though..... ..

The next step "up" is an Inspection Authorization.

http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...mc=true&node=pt14.2.65&rgn=div5#se14.2.65_191

 

[Lord Anoobis]

The next step "up" is an Inspection Authorization.

A step "up" into a whole new set of problems, yes indeed. I'm sure you can relate to the level of entertainment that ensues when someone much higher up the chain of command implements a plan which inevitably turns into a disaster. I suppose you get the equivalent of Operation Market Garden in every sphere though.

 

[Ryan_m_b]

Looking into the literature it's very easy to find a tonne of sociological and epidemiological articles using the term blue collar, here's a small sample that I've just skimmed through over lunch:

Disparities in punishment of white- and blue-collar crimes in Austria
The process of burnout in white-collar and blue-collar jobs: eight year prospective study of exhaustion
Effects of a tailored health promotion program for female blue-collar workers: health works for women
Reducing social disparities in tobacco use: a social model for reducing tobacco use among blue-collar workers

Somewhat surprisingly none actually define blue-collar or white-collar, the first article interestingly defines the crimes and not the profession. The latter tobacco article does delve a bit further into socioeconomic status but doesn't directly relate blue-collar to it.

Having done some social epidemiology modules in the past (but not being educated or working in this field) I get the impression that these definitions aren't commonly defined because they aren't in society. The blue/white classification is very much both objective and subjective. Objectively there are criteria such as: level of education, ratio of manual versus mental work, position on organisation hierarchy etcetera. But I'd argue there are also less objective measurements related to social class; nurses are a good example even though they mostly perform manual work and up until recently (in my country at least) did not require a university education, but the profession is highly regarded.

One last point: whilst the concept isn't solidly defined and changes in both time and culture it's one of those definitions that works fairly well at the extremes. Plumbers, carpenters, electricians, seamstress, cleaner, driver etc are all commonly regarded as blue-collar whereas doctors, scientists, management, accountants, clerks etc are all commonly regarded as white-collar. It's the large grey middle that causes issue.

 

[gjonesy]

I would absolutely not consider someone working on an aircraft to be blue collar. We can usually identify what's blue collar and what isn't based on job title: Auto mechanic, aircraft technician. Programmer vs software engineer. Carpenter vs architect.

Are nurses blue collar workers? They do most of the manual labor of the patient care, where doctor tend to make the important decisions and do highly technical manual things (nurses disimpact bowels, doctors do neurosurgery.) Nurses, especially at the higher ranks (CRNP like my mother) tend to have masters degrees.

Welder fabricator, is a highly skilled trade. it involves a lot of math, especially doing ASME code work. Some mechanical components require a lot of precision and tolerance to 1/100s to 1/1,000 of an inch. You are part hook boogy and part engineer. A lot of times designs don't work out as they were drawn so the fabricator sometimes has to tweak and or "interpret" the engineers vision to make a machine work as intended.

P.S. I am proud of my "blue collar roots" as a welder fabricator. Now I'd be considered a white collar, funny though I make less money now, and the skill set required is in my opinion far less then a fabricator.

 

[bluemoonKY]

Welder fabricator, is a highly skilled trade. it involves a lot of math, especially doing ASME code work. .

What type of math does a welder fabricator have to use for his job? I mean, is it just arithmetic? Or does a welder fabricator have to use geometry or algebra, or trigonometry or any other type of math?

 

[gjonesy]

What type of math does a welder fabricator have to use for his job?

Depends on what he or she is fabricating, it helps to be able to understand factions, millimeters, calculation of radius, angles in degrees, It can be simple as being able to read a tape measure, to understanding complex calculations, ect

http://www.weldmyworld.com/blog/2012/03/math-for-welders.html

 

[Evo]

P.S. Why did you say "especially when it's meant to demean people it is applied to"? When did I or anyone else on this thread demean blue collar workers or white collar workers?

I apologize, I was too critical of you.

Among white collar workers in the US, it is unfortunate that many people use the term "blue collar" as a put down, insinuating that the person is of low social status and education.

• Blue-collar is often used in a derogatory sense to indicate lower socioeconomic status to others and conversely indicate pride in ones own status.

]http://sociologydictionary.org/blue-collar-worker/

Why the Disdain for American Blue-Collar Workers?

Judgments about intelligence carry great weight in our society, and unfortunately Americans (especially American lawmakers and media elites) are developing an unsettling tendency to make sweeping assessments of people’s intelligence, as well as their overall worthiness as human beings, based upon the kind of work they do.

Culturally speaking, American comedy has increasingly become a forum for abusing blue-collar career values in order to provide humor for the white-collar class. American comedy is now being used to denigrate the worth of blue-collar jobs, make fun of blue-collar values, and mock the lifestyle of blue-collar families.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sean-mcgarvey/why-the-disdain-for-ameri_b_7746642.html

 

[russ_watters]

Somewhat surprisingly none actually define blue-collar or white-collar, the first article interestingly defines the crimes and not the profession.

That's because the crimes aren't necessarily related to any profession. I'm not an accountant, but if I cheat on my taxes, that's a white collar crime. Since crimes are concise, specific acts it is much easier to classify them as blue/white collar than it is to classify jobs as blue/white collar.

The next two articles are behind a paywall, but the third says this:

Results of this study for tobacco use cessation for blue-collar (hourly) and white-collar (salaried) workers are presented in Figure 3.

Guess that makes me blue collar.

In any case, that one's not a study itself, it is an analysis of other studies. It would be nice if they defined the terms they were using, but presumably they left that to the actual studies.

 

[russ_watters]

I apologize, I was too critical of you.

Frankly, I was getting a vibe of a charge of the other side of the coin; elitism from the white collar. That's why I don't like these terms. They are loaded.