Usage of General Specific Heats Cp0 and Cv0

  • Thread starter Thread starter messier992
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    General Specific
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the usage of specific heats Cp0 and Cv0 in thermodynamic equations, particularly in the context of a problem involving energy balance in an open system. Participants explore the validity of transformations between internal energy and enthalpy, the conditions under which these specific heats can be applied, and the implications of adding mass between states in the analysis.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about the transformation of internal energy (hi) and enthalpy (h) into terms involving Cp and Cv, questioning the validity of these transformations when pressure and volume change linearly.
  • Another participant notes that the relations for Cv and Cp are typically valid under constant volume and pressure conditions, but suggests that for an ideal gas, these state functions depend only on temperature, which may allow for broader applicability.
  • There is a discussion about the assumption that heat capacities are constant over the temperature range of interest, with one participant suggesting that using a reference temperature other than absolute zero could clarify the derivation.
  • Concerns are raised about the addition of mass between states and whether this complicates the energy balance, with a participant suggesting that the change in mass should be accounted for in the equations.
  • Another participant elaborates on the relationship between internal energy and enthalpy, providing a detailed derivation that incorporates a reference temperature and discusses how terms cancel out in the energy balance equation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the applicability of Cp0 and Cv0 under varying conditions, particularly regarding linear changes in pressure and volume. There is no consensus on the validity of the transformations or the implications of adding mass between states, indicating ongoing debate and uncertainty.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in the assumptions made regarding constant heat capacities and the conditions under which the specific heats are applied. The discussion also reflects the complexity of the relationships between internal energy, enthalpy, and temperature, particularly in open systems.

messier992
Messages
8
Reaction score
0
Homework Statement
What conditions for usage of the general specific heats?
Relevant Equations
u2-u1=~Cv0(T2-T1)
h2-h1=~Cp0(T2-T1)
Cv=du/DT at constant volume
Cp=dh/dT at constant Pressure
Q-W=me*he-mi*hi+m2*u
1. I am rather confused about the usage of Cp0 and Cv0 in the solutions to the question below:
242473

In the solution to the depicted question, the solution involves setting up the equation as follows:
Q-W=me*he-mi*hi+m2*ue-m1*u1
-W=-mi*Cp*Ti+m2CvT2-m1CvT1
I don't follow for the second step. How can the transformation of hi, u1, and u2 be valid? I thought the relation between Cp0 and Cv0 only held over an interval due to the nature of the derivation of the equations:
Cv=δu/δT at constant volume => ∫Cvδu=∫δT => u2-u1=~Cv0(T2-T1)
Cp=δh/δT at constant Pressure = ∫Cvδu=∫δT => h2-h1=~Cp0(T2-T1)2. Additionally, what are the conditions for the usage of these equations?
u2-u1=~Cv0(T2-T1)
h2-h1=~Cp0(T2-T1)
I thought they were only valid at constant volume and pressure? In the case above, the pressure/volume changes linearly, are the relations still valid then?
Lastly, mass is also added between states 1 and 2, in the case above. I understand the equation relates specific terms, per unit mass, but does this addition of mass pose a problem?
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
messier992 said:
1. I am rather confused about the usage of Cp0 and Cv0 in the solutions to the question below:
View attachment 242473
In the solution to the depicted question, the solution involves setting up the equation as follows:
Q-W=me*he-mi*hi+m2*ue-m1*u1
-W=-mi*Cp*Ti+m2CvT2-m1CvT1
I don't follow for the second step. How can the transformation of hi, u1, and u2 be valid? I thought the relation between Cp0 and Cv0 only held over an interval due to the nature of the derivation of the equations:
Cv=δu/δT at constant volume => ∫Cvδu=∫δT => u2-u1=~Cv0(T2-T1)
Cp=δh/δT at constant Pressure = ∫Cvδu=∫δT => h2-h1=~Cp0(T2-T1)
The assumption is made that, over the temperature range of interest, the heat capacities are constant. If the answer had employed a reference temperature other than absolute zero (say, 27 C, for example), the 2nd equation would have come out the same in the end, but the derivation would have been much more acceptable to you

2. Additionally, what are the conditions for the usage of these equations?
u2-u1=~Cv0(T2-T1)
h2-h1=~Cp0(T2-T1)
I thought they were only valid at constant volume and pressure? In the case above, the pressure/volume changes linearly, are the relations still valid then?
For the special case of an ideal gas, the thermodynamic state functions u and h are functions only of temperature, independent of pressure and volume, so it doesn't matter if the pressure and volume changed.
Lastly, mass is also added between states 1 and 2, in the case above. I understand the equation relates specific terms, per unit mass, but does this addition of mass pose a problem?
Well, you need to determine the change in mass ##m_i=m_2-m_1##, so you would write $$m_2=m_1+m_i$$
 
Thanks for the reply! I am still confused about how hi can transform into Cp*Ti. I know there is a relationship between Δh = Cp(ΔT), but do not know if there is one for h=CpT. Or are there more complicated immediate steps in between the aforementioned Steps 1 & 2 that were not in the solution?
 
messier992 said:
Thanks for the reply! I am still confused about how hi can transform into Cp*Ti. I know there is a relationship between Δh = Cp(ΔT), but do not know if there is one for h=CpT. Or are there more complicated immediate steps in between the aforementioned Steps 1 & 2 that were not in the solution?
If we let ##T_R## represent some arbitrary datum absolute temperature at which the internal energy per unit mass is ##u_R##, then in the open system (control volume) version of the 1 st law applied to this problem, then we would write $$u=u_R+C_{v0}(T-T_R)$$ and $$h=u+Pv=u+RT=u_R+C_{v0}(T-T_R)+RT=C_{p0}(T-T_R)+u_R+RT_R$$The energy balance would be written as:$$m_2u_2-m_1u_1=m_ih_i+Q-W$$If we then substitute the equations for u and h in terms of the reference temperature ##T_R##, we obtain:$$m_2C_{v0}T_2-m_1C_{v0}T_1+(m_2-m_1)(u_R-C_{v0}T_R)=m_iC_{p0}T_i+m_i(u_R-C_{p0}T_R+RT_R)+Q-W$$But, since ##m_2-m_1=m_i##, the terms involving the reference state temperature ##T_R## and reference state internal energy ##u_R## drop out, and we are left with:$$m_2C_{v0}T_2-m_1C_{v0}T_1=m_iC_{p0}T_i+Q-W$$
 
Last edited:

Similar threads

Replies
8
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
7K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
5K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
8K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
5K
  • · Replies 40 ·
2
Replies
40
Views
5K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
3K