Using the First Property to Prove the Second Property of the Exterior Product

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the properties of the exterior product in the context of linear algebra, specifically focusing on proving the second property using the first property. Participants explore the implications of permutations and their signs in relation to the exterior product, engaging in technical reasoning and mathematical exploration.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose using the first property of the exterior product to demonstrate the second property, involving permutations and their signs.
  • There is a discussion about the nature of the permutation involved, specifically whether it is even or odd and how that affects the sign of the permutation.
  • Participants question the correctness of their index assignments and the implications of those assignments on the proof structure.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the relationship between sign and parity, and how it applies to the permutation being discussed.
  • There is a suggestion that the sign of the permutation can be derived from the number of shifts involved in rearranging elements.
  • Participants challenge each other's interpretations of the permutation's effect on the indices of the exterior product terms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the definitions and properties of permutations, but there is no consensus on the correctness of specific index assignments and the implications for the proof. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the formal proof structure and the application of the permutation.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the permutation's sign and its relationship to the indices of the exterior product. The discussion also highlights the dependency on the equality of k and l for certain claims to hold.

mathmari
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Hey! :o

Two of the properties of the exterior product are the following:

- Let $\psi_1, \ldots , \psi_k, n_{1}, \ldots , n_{\ell}\in V^{\star}$ then it holds that $$\left (\psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k\right )\land \left (n_1\land \ldots \land n_{\ell}\right )=\psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k\land n_{1}\land \ldots \land n_{\ell}$$
- Let $\omega \in \land^kV^{\star}$ and $\sigma\in \land^{\ell}V^{\star}$. Then it holds that $$\omega\land \sigma=(-1)^{k\ell}\sigma\land \omega$$

I want to show the second property using besides other properties also the first one.

I have done the following:

Let $\psi_1, \ldots , \psi_k, n_{k+1}, \ldots , n_{k+\ell}\in V^{\star}$. Let $\omega \in \land^kV^{\star}$ and $\sigma\in \land^{\ell}V^{\star}$. Then we have that $\omega= \psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k$ and $\sigma=n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k+\ell}$.

We get the following:
\begin{align*}\omega\land \sigma=\left (\psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k\right )\land \left (n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k+\ell}\right ) \\ \overset{ \text{First property }}{ = } \psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k\land n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k+\ell}\end{align*}

Then we have to take a permutation of the form $\pi: (1, \ldots , k, k+1, \ldots , k+\ell) \mapsto (k+1, \ldots , k+\ell, 1, \ldots , k)$, right? (Wondering)

Which is the sign of that permutation? (Wondering)

Does it holds then that \begin{align*}\psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k\land n_1\land \ldots \land n_{\ell}&=n_{\pi(k+1)}\land \ldots \land n_{\pi(k+\ell)}\land \psi_{\pi(1)}\land \ldots \land \psi_{\pi(\ell)} \\ & =\text{sign}(\pi)\cdot n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k}\land \psi_{k+1}\land \ldots \land \psi_{k+\ell} \\ & = \text{sign}(\pi)\left (n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k}\right )\land \left (\psi_{k+1}\land \ldots \land \psi_{k+\ell}\right )\\ & = \text{sign}(\pi)\sigma\land \omega \end{align*} ? (Wondering)
 
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mathmari said:
Then we have to take a permutation of the form $\pi: (1, \ldots , k, k+1, \ldots , k+\ell) \mapsto (k+1, \ldots , k+\ell, 1, \ldots , k)$, right? (Wondering)

Which is the sign of that permutation? (Wondering)

Hey mathmari! (Smile)

Yep, that's a good permutation.

The sign of a permutation depends on the number of pairwise transpositions that can compose it.
If it's an odd number of transpositions, the sign is -1, and if it's even, the sign is +1.
For instance for $\pi: (1, 2, 3, 4) \mapsto (3, 4, 1, 2)$, we can write $\pi = (13)(24)$, which is an even permutation, meaning its sign is +1.

We can also use that a cyclic transposition of k elements (a k-cycle) has sign -1 if k is even, and sign +1 if k is odd.
(Note that sign and parity are exactly the other way around here. Can you tell us why? (Wondering))
So for the same example, we can write $\pi=(1234)^2$, which is 2 applications of an odd permutation, yielding an even permutation, that is, sign +1.

Which cycle might we use to build $\pi$?

mathmari said:
Does it holds then that \begin{align*}\psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k\land n_1\land \ldots \land n_{\ell}&=n_{\pi(k+1)}\land \ldots \land n_{\pi(k+\ell)}\land \psi_{\pi(1)}\land \ldots \land \psi_{\pi(\ell)} \\ & =\text{sign}(\pi)\cdot n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k}\land \psi_{k+1}\land \ldots \land \psi_{k+\ell} \\ & = \text{sign}(\pi)\left (n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k}\right )\land \left (\psi_{k+1}\land \ldots \land \psi_{k+\ell}\right )\\ & = \text{sign}(\pi)\sigma\land \omega \end{align*} ?

Yep. (Nod)
 
I like Serena said:
Yep, that's a good permutation.

The sign of a permutation depends on the number of pairwise transpositions that can compose it.
If it's an odd number of transpositions, the sign is -1, and if it's even, the sign is +1.
For instance for $\pi: (1, 2, 3, 4) \mapsto (3, 4, 1, 2)$, we can write $\pi = (13)(24)$, which is an even permutation, meaning its sign is +1.

We can also use that a cyclic transposition of k elements (a k-cycle) has sign -1 if k is even, and sign +1 if k is odd.
(Note that sign and parity are exactly the other way around here. Can you tell us why? (Wondering))
So for the same example, we can write $\pi=(1234)^2$, which is 2 applications of an odd permutation, yielding an even permutation, that is, sign +1.

Which cycle might we use to build $\pi$?
What is exactly the difference between sign and parity? I got stuck right now... (Wondering) We can write the permutation as the product of cycles: $(1 \ \ k+1)(2 \ \ k+2) \ldots (k \ \ k+\ell )$, or not? The number of transpositions is $k$, or not? (Wondering)
I like Serena said:
Yep. (Nod)

So, is the way I wrote the indices, i.e., at $\psi$ I wrote the indices from $1$ to $k$ and at $n$ I wrote the indices from $k+1$ to $k+\ell$, correct? (Wondering)
 
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mathmari said:
What is exactly the difference between sign and parity? I got stuck right now...

Parity is even or odd, while sign is +1 or -1.
A permutation with odd parity is a permutation that has sign -1.
A k-cycle with even k is an odd permutation and therefore the permutation has sign -1.
As an example the permutation given by $(23)$ consists of 1 pairwise transposition (odd), while at the same time the number of elements in the cycle is 2 (even). Either way, the sign of the permutation is -1. (Nerd)

mathmari said:
We can write the permutation as the product of cycles: $(1 \ \ k+1)(2 \ \ k+2) \ldots (k \ \ k+\ell )$, or not? The number of transpositions is $k$, or not?

This only works if $\ell = k$ doesn't it? (Wondering)
In that case the number of transitions is indeed $k$, and therefore the sign is $(-1)^k$.

mathmari said:
So, is the way I wrote the indices, i.e., at $\psi$ I wrote the indices from $1$ to $k$ and at $n$ I wrote the indices from $k+1$ to $k+\ell$, correct?

I believe so yes.
What do you think might be wrong with it? (Wondering)
 
I like Serena said:
Parity is even or odd, while sign is +1 or -1.
A permutation with odd parity is a permutation that has sign -1.
A k-cycle with even k is an odd permutation and therefore the permutation has sign -1.
As an example the permutation given by $(23)$ consists of 1 pairwise transposition (odd), while at the same time the number of elements in the cycle is 2 (even). Either way, the sign of the permutation is -1. (Nerd)
Ah ok! (Nerd)
I like Serena said:
This only works if $\ell = k$ doesn't it? (Wondering)
In that case the number of transitions is indeed $k$, and therefore the sign is $(-1)^k$.
We have the permutation $\pi: (1, \ldots , k, k+1, \ldots , k+\ell) \mapsto (k+1, \ldots , k+\ell, 1, \ldots , k)$.

We shift the element $(k+1)$ $k$ positions to the left, then we shift the element $(k+2)$ also $k$ positions to the left, etc.

So we shift each of the elements $\{k+1, \ldots k+\ell\}$ $k$ positions to the left.

At a shift of one position the sign is equal to $-1$. At a shift for $k$ positions the sign becomes $(-1)^k$. We shift totally $\ell$ times. Therefore, the sign becomes $((-1)^k)^{\ell}=(-1)^{k\ell}$.

Is everything correct? (Wondering)

Is this a formal proof? (Wondering)
 
I got stuck right now.. (Wondering)

We have the permutation $\pi: (1, \ldots , k, k+1, \ldots , k+\ell) \mapsto (k+1, \ldots , k+\ell, 1, \ldots , k)$.

Is this correct to say that $\psi_1=n_{\pi (k+1)}$ ? Shouldn't it be that $\psi_{\pi(1)}=n_{k+1}$ ?

Is the following correct? Or should I use in an other way the permutation?
\begin{align*}\psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k\land n_1\land \ldots \land n_{\ell}&=n_{\pi(k+1)}\land \ldots \land n_{\pi(k+\ell)}\land \psi_{\pi(1)}\land \ldots \land \psi_{\pi(\ell)} \\ & =\text{sign}(\pi)\cdot n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k}\land \psi_{1}\land \ldots \land \psi_{\ell} \\ & = \text{sign}(\pi)\left (n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k}\right )\land \left (\psi_{1}\land \ldots \land \psi_{\ell}\right )\\ & = \text{sign}(\pi)\sigma\land \omega \end{align*}

Shouldn't it be as follows?
\begin{align*}\psi_1\land \ldots \land \psi_k\land n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k+\ell}&=\text{sign}(\pi)\psi_{\pi(1)}\land \ldots \land \psi_{\pi(k)}\land n_{\pi(k+1)}\land \ldots \land n_{\pi(k+\ell)} \\ & =\text{sign}(\pi)\cdot n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k+\ell}\land \psi_{1}\land \ldots \land \psi_{k} \\ & = \text{sign}(\pi)\left (n_{k+1}\land \ldots \land n_{k+\ell}\right )\land \left (\psi_{1}\land \ldots \land \psi_{k}\right )\\ & = \text{sign}(\pi)\sigma\land \omega \end{align*}
(Wondering)
 
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