UV light + electric current = boom?

[SW Dad]

Hi, so I was hoping to get an EE's explanation for what just happened. So my son was apparently over by the light switch pointing a UV pen light at the switch. Suddenly there was very loud, gunshot-like pop, sparks flew, and I had to go reset the breaker.

Maybe correlation doesn't imply causation, but this was freaking weird.

This is the switch. He had it pointing at the switches on the right.

And this is the pen.

Any explanations?

 

[Charles Link]

Hi, so I was hoping to get an EE's explanation for what just happened. So my son was apparently over by the light switch pointing a UV pen light at the switch. Suddenly there was very loud, gunshot-like pop, sparks flew, and I had to go reset the breaker.

Maybe correlation doesn't imply causation, but this was freaking weird.

View attachment 216963
This is the switch. He had it pointing at the switches on the right.
View attachment 216964
And this is the pen.

Any explanations?

The UV light was probably able to partially ionize some of the air between the postive and negative voltage terminals that were originally open circuited. Once the air is ionized, it becomes more conductive, and the resistance goes down as an arc gets established in the air, and the current in the arc and wires increases, basically creating a short circuit until the circuit breaker blew.

 

[scottdave]

Hmm. That is odd. I suppose it would have to be repeated before you could rule out coincidence. But I wouldn't recommend the same scenario. Perhaps a more controlled environment. Like measuring the resistance of the device, outside a circuit, then applying the UV light.
It is possible that the semiconductor components could change its resistance as UV light might have an effect on it. Remember that UV photons have a higher energy than visible light.

 

[SW Dad]

Thank you for both these responses. The first for a potential explanation of the phenomenon, the second so I could reinforce to my wife NO WE ARE NOT GOING TO TRY AND MAKE IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

She is why we can't have nice things

 

[berkeman]

LOL. Indeed a strange one. Welcome to the PF, BTW.

Can you post the model number of the UV penlight? A datasheet would be even better, but any info would be helpful so we can look up its specs. Do you know what its claimed output power is?

And do you know the model number and manufacturer of the light switch? Is that light circuit on a GFCI protected breaker by any chance? Or 2was it a regular 20A breaker that popped?

 

[Charles Link]

Thank you for both these responses. The first for a potential explanation of the phenomenon, the second so I could reinforce to my wife NO WE ARE NOT GOING TO TRY AND MAKE IT HAPPEN AGAIN.

She is why we can't have nice things

One time when I was a youngster, I was plugging in an electrical plug and the prongs were still visible as I pushed the plug half-way in, and so I did an experiment of what happens when you put a metal safety pin across the prongs. The pin quickly heated up, and also blew the fuse. That was an experiment I never repeated. I was lucky I wasn't punished by my parents for my stupidity.

 

[SW Dad]

LOL. Indeed a strange one. Welcome to the PF, BTW.

Can you post the model number of the UV penlight? A datasheet would be even better, but any info would be helpful so we can look up its specs. Do you know what its claimed output power is?

And do you know the model number and manufacturer of the light switch? Is that light circuit on a GFCI protected breaker by any chance? Or 2was it a regular 20A breaker that popped?

Yeah, it's manufactured by Scholastic with the model number 556156 06/17. I tried googling it with no luck.

 

[berkeman]

One time when I was a youngster, I was plugging in an electrical plug and the prongs were still visible as I pushed the plug half-way in, and so I did an experiment of what happens when you put a metal safety pin across the prongs. The pin quickly heated up, and also blew the fuse. That was an experiment I never repeated. I was lucky I wasn't punished by my parents for my stupidity.

Okay, let's all resist the urge to tell our favorite "I blew the breaker being dumb" stories. Not that I have any of those, but I'm just sayin'

No need to give the young-uns who read the PF any more ideas than they already have...

 

[SW Dad]

As for the switch, I'll have to have a look and get back to ya.

 

[Charles Link]

As for the switch, I'll have to have a look and get back to ya.

It's my guess that the switch is very mechanical, rather than semiconductor. I believe some switches also contain liquid mercury as the conductive element (I remember reading that somewhere). If that is the case, it is certainly also possible that the conductive path was assisted by mercury atoms in the vapor phase being ionized inside the switch by the incident UV. $\\$ Editing: A google of this shows these (mercury) switches were manufactured before 1991, and do not make a click when you turn them off and on, because there is no solid mechanical contact that gets put in place, but rather they function on the change in position of the electrically conductive mercury liquid. $\\$ Additional editing: Here is one UV penlight I was able to find in a google. The UV wavelengths of the one that you have could be the same, or they could be different: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00NLREN8Y/?tag=pfamazon01-20

 

[anorlunda]

Wait a minute. Is it the premise that the UV penetrated the plastic face plate? Or came in through those plug slots?

 

[Charles Link]

Wait a minute. Is it the premise that the UV penetrated the plastic face plate? Or came in through those plug slots?

This idea had occurred to me as well.

 

[NascentOxygen]

So my son was apparently over by the light switch pointing a UV pen light at the switch. Suddenly there was very loud, gunshot-like pop, sparks flew, and I had to go reset the breaker.

It is an interesting occurrence. Was the ON-OFF switch in the ON position at the time? Can we take it that the sparks emerged from one particular slot under the Fan Light controls, is that definite? Was there soot or residue on the switch cover after the blast, but it is not visible in the photo because it has been cleaned away? Is your son of an age where he may have been probing with a short length of metal, such as a paper clip, and not wish to disclose this to you?

 

[Charles Link]

It is an interesting occurrence. Was the ON-OFF switch in the ON position at the time? Was there soot or residue on the switch cover after the blast, but it is not visible in the photo because it has been cleaned away? Is your son of an age where he may have been probing with a short length of metal, such as a paper clip, and not wish to disclose this to you?

This one is interesting enough, that we could really make a laboratory experiment out of it, or perhaps even the manufacturers of this UV penlight need to do that kind of testing. I am lead to believe that an electric arc was established that was aided by the UV, perhaps in the outlet as @anorlunda has suggested, or somewhere in the switch. Another possibility, although I think somewhat unlikely is that the UV heated up the surface of one of the metal electrodes and aided in thermionic emission. Alternatively, did the UV photons have sufficient energy to free the electrons=photoelectric effect?, and thereby made the arcing occur quite readily at the 115 volts ac?

 

[The Electrician]

The speculations offered so far are very unlikely.

The image shown in the first post doesn't show an outlet--it shows switches which operate a fan and light. If a closure of those circuits occurs there wouldn't be a short that would trip a breaker; there would simply be a fan or light turned on. If the devices in the box are wired in accordance with the NEC, the hot and neutral wouldn't be anywhere near close enough for a short across them without probing through an opening with a metal probe even more capable than the one that Underwriter Labs uses to test these things.

Also, the long wave ultraviolet produced by the near visible led in that pen can't ionize air anyway, and that pen probably emits a few tens of milliwatts of UV, hardly enough to heat metal significantly.

It's hard to see how low-power long wave UV light could cause anything like what is described. The explanation must lie elsewhere.

 

[Dadface]

Hi, so I was hoping to get an EE's explanation for what just happened. So my son was apparently over by the light switch pointing a UV pen light at the switch. Suddenly there was very loud, gunshot-like pop, sparks flew, and I had to go reset the breaker.

Maybe correlation doesn't imply causation, but this was freaking weird.

Your use of the word "apparently" can be interpreted as suggesting that you might be doubtful about your sons account of what happened.

 

[jim hardy]

It's hard to see how low-power long wave UV light could cause anything like what is described. The explanation must lie elsewhere.

i agree. There's something fishy in Denmark -
Sparks indicate a connection between 'hot' and either 'neutral' or 'ground'.
Hot is black , neutral is white, green or bare is ground. If it's a metal box that too is grounded.
..........................

In photo, top cover plate mounting screw is loose and right dimmer handle is missing. Suggests amateur installation.
I always align the mounting screw slots vertical to give a neat appearance, yours are helter-skelter.

I suspect wires behind the switch are in too close proximity .
My advice is
Open the breaker , remove cover plate (carefully) and look. Should be smoke residue wherever was the origin of your sparks.

My suspicion is you'll find the dimmer mounting screws are loose and it can be moved enough to make some wires back there touch one another.

Get a handyman neighbor to help if you're uncomfortable .

Repeat - Open the breaker first.

old jim

 

[blue_leaf77]

Alternatively, did the UV photons have sufficient energy to free the electrons=photoelectric effect?

I find photoelectric effect is more likely than air ionization as the cause of the spark. The photon energy in the high frequency end of visible spectrum is about 3.25 eV compared to the ionization potentials of air constituents which are at least ~10 eV. Unless the UV light is focused, you will only have trace level of ions from UV-ionized molecules. On the other hand, the work function of most metals is below 5 eV.

 

[jim hardy]

I've heard of photoflash strobe lights causing plastic case transistors to mis-operate . But that was back in 1960's - surely manufacturers have switched to UV-proof plastic by now ?
But as @The Electrician pointed out that should only turn on the fan or light, and briefly.
I suppose if it fed DC to the fan motor you might get overcurrent. Do the fan and its speed controller still work okay ?

old jim

 

[the_emi_guy]

Did your son push against the switch plate with the UV light or was he definitely at at distance?
If there was contact, than I would say that Jim's comment about poor installation is likely the answer, and you should get an electrician to inspect it right away.

I experienced fuses blowing randomly that took me a couple years to determine root cause. Whoever installed the garbage disposal had access to both phases under the sink and decided to wire nut them together. Turns out that the wire nut was poorly done, so the phase-to-phase short only happened if a certain spot on the wall was bumped.

 

[SW Dad]

This idea had occurred to me as well.

I believe it came in through the exposed gaps in the switches, rather than passing through the plastic.

 

[Charles Link]

I believe it came in through the exposed gaps in the switches, rather than passing through the plastic.

This kind of puzzle can be a fun adventure for the experimentalist in the laboratory. Oftentimes, it turns out to be resolved only after a series of experiments has ruled out some of the possibilities that get proposed for being the cause or mechanism responsible, and then, in some cases, what seems to be a somewhat unlikely cause when it is first proposed, turns out in fact to be correct. Unless the bunch of us have overlooked the obvious and someone can come up with that new answer, this one doesn't look like it can be too easily resolved without some additional experimentation of some kind. The correct answer has perhaps already been proposed, but further experimentation would be necessary to resolve the puzzle. @jim hardy had a good suggestion of having an experienced electrician look over the wiring connections to see if there is something that isn't installed properly.

 

[DarioC]

I don't see any comment that the "switches" on the right side are variable controls and not off-on switches.

 

[The Electrician]

I don't see any comment that the "switches" on the right side are variable controls and not off-on switches.

Post #17 by Jim Hardy: "In photo, top cover plate mounting screw is loose and right dimmer handle is missing."

 

[anorlunda]

Post #17 by Jim Hardy: "In photo, top cover plate mounting screw is loose and right dimmer handle is missing."

So what? Those dimmer sliders are normally fitted with a piece of cardboard behind the plate. I still don't see a path for UV light to shine on the electrical contacts. If there was such a path, the contacts should be visible in the picture.

 

[SW Dad]

Post #17 by Jim Hardy: "In photo, top cover plate mounting screw is loose and right dimmer handle is missing."

They're dimmers. It might look it in the photo, but the screw isn't lose. And yeah, that handle kept popping off and ended up getting lost at some point. It's just a plastic cap, the switch still works.

Here it is from a different angle.

 

[SW Dad]

Did your son push against the switch plate with the UV light or was he definitely at at distance?
If there was contact, than I would say that Jim's comment about poor installation is likely the answer, and you should get an electrician to inspect it right away.

I experienced fuses blowing randomly that took me a couple years to determine root cause. Whoever installed the garbage disposal had access to both phases under the sink and decided to wire nut them together. Turns out that the wire nut was poorly done, so the phase-to-phase short only happened if a certain spot on the wall was bumped.

No, he's positive he didn't come into contact with the plate. He was just shining the light in there.

 

[SW Dad]

It is an interesting occurrence. Was the ON-OFF switch in the ON position at the time? Can we take it that the sparks emerged from one particular slot under the Fan Light controls, is that definite? Was there soot or residue on the switch cover after the blast, but it is not visible in the photo because it has been cleaned away? Is your son of an age where he may have been probing with a short length of metal, such as a paper clip, and not wish to disclose this to you?

No, I'm positive he wasn't poking at it. I was in the room when it happened. The switches were in the exact positions shown in the first photo. For the slider switches, you slide them up for increased intensity.

 

[SW Dad]

Also, the slider switches are different. The fan one mechanically clicks at four separate stops, the light one does not.

 

[SW Dad]

I'd remove the plate and have a look inside, but I'm still recovering from hip surgery at the moment and don't want to mess with electronics right now

 

[SW Dad]

Your use of the word "apparently" can be interpreted as suggesting that you might be doubtful about your sons account of what happened.

I always use probabilistic language when I did not directly observe the event myself. I have no reason to doubt his account, but for all I know an orb of ball lightning might have slipped into the wall when he wasn't looking

 

[DarioC]

Roger on the dimmer. Read it but didn't register/early morning with headache. I will suggest that there may be something a little more complex under those control arms with perhaps marginal contact or sensitive material/clearances that the UV could affect.

 

[DarioC]

Picked my curiosity so I compared images and this appears to be a spy pen? If so it is likely, from articles I have just read, to not be UV, but rather the upper end of the visible spectrum at 410 nm. Typically about 5mW LED. Moot point probably, high energy visible anyway.

I'm interested in atmospheric ionization, as in ion propulsion, so I spent some time checking a few sources.

 

[RonL]

I'm not much of a electronics person, but might there be UV responsive circuits in the variable speed controller ?

 

[SW Dad]

Picked my curiosity so I compared images and this appears to be a spy pen? If so it is likely, from articles I have just read, to not be UV, but rather the upper end of the visible spectrum at 410 nm. Typically about 5mW LED. Moot point probably, high energy visible anyway.

I'm interested in atmospheric ionization, as in ion propulsion, so I spent some time checking a few sources.

It is a spy pen. It's possible? I don't know how HEV interacts with stuff vs a UV light. My daughter has some https://puttyworld.com/collections/glow-in-the-darks-1/products/ion that glowed after exposing it to the light for a few seconds.

 

[DarioC]

As others have suggested, have a experienced electrical person carefully pull the wall plate and first and foremost check for exactly where the arc took place. That will be your best clue as to what happened. If there was sparking there should be some visible marks. The physical characteristics of the controllers are the next best source of information. Hope you get to feeling better and let us know what you find out eventually.
DC

 

[OmCheeto]

I'm not much of a electronics person, but might there be UV responsive circuits in the variable speed controller ?

I suppose we could contact the manufacturer. Anyone try that yet?

 

[OmCheeto]

Also, the slider switches are different. The fan one mechanically clicks at four separate stops, the light one does not.

Which narrows down our choices to either Lutron model S2-LFSQ or S2-LFSQH.
"single pole, 3-speed fan/light dual control. Max ratings are 1.5A fan/300W incandescent/halogen light"
[ref: Lutron Support Center]

Nothing in their FAQ or Troubleshooting sections about "UV light" mishaps.

 

[Asymptotic]

Nothing in their FAQ or Troubleshooting sections about "UV light" mishaps.

This got me to thinking about welding. Arc welding generates massive UV (enough that after only a few minutes exposure welding-induced 'sunburn' occurs), but I've never heard of it doing anything odd to nearby electrical gear. Electronics damaged due to stray electrical currents are another matter.

 

[OmCheeto]

This got me to thinking about welding. Arc welding generates massive UV (enough that after only a few minutes exposure welding-induced 'sunburn' occurs), but I've never heard of it doing anything odd to nearby electrical gear. Electronics damaged due to stray electrical currents are another matter.

I did something similar. I tried to figure out the natural UV levels from the sun. Wiki says that it's 10% of total, so that would be around 100 watts/m^2.
These "secret agent" toy UV penlights all put out about 5 milliwatts, but there's little information on beam spread. Fortunately, a group of people analyzed the geometry and output after a child damaged his eye after staring at one for about 40 seconds.

1. The LED emission angle was 50 degrees. The beam diameter at the 1 cm exposure distance (LED to cornea) was 9 mm. About 1.4 mW entered the boy’s pupil which had a diameter of 3.4 mm. [ref]

The OP's description sounds almost identical as far as distances go, so:

1.4 mW through a hole 3.4 mm in diameter yields: 154 watts/m^2 (toy output)
which is about 50% more than the sun.

Though close enough I think, that natural sunlight entering this model of fan controller would do the same thing.

I would do the experiment myself, but the unit costs $27, and I have no use for such a device, nor the "secret agent" pen.

 

[DarioC]

Good investigating OmCheeto, and calculating. I see the unit is an enclosed box, so much for just checking behind the panel. I'm just now thinking about how we could get the manufacturer to donate a unit or supply some detailed design information.

 

[OmCheeto]

Good investigating OmCheeto, and calculating. I see the unit is an enclosed box, so much for just checking behind the panel. I'm just now thinking about how we could get the manufacturer to donate a unit or supply some detailed design information.

I would recommend what several other people have already recommended: Have someone who knows how to wire an outlet look at it and see if there's a problem. Shouldn't take more than 5 minutes.

 

[DarioC]

Ah yes, but the circuit is in an enclosed "box", that will be a problem I think.

Meanwhile, I found some LEDs in a parts drawer that are rated almost identically to the ratings of the spy pens. That is 405 nm and 5 mW, so I'm going to set up an experiment with AC line voltage and multiple materials and adjustable air gaps. I already have a variable gap setup from when I was overhauling the magnetos for my airplane.

I'm having thoughts about some connection with photo emission experiments that I did some time ago.
I hope the moderators will keep this open so I will be able to report any results or lack thereof.
DC

 

[Rive]

Which narrows down our choices to either Lutron model S2-LFSQ or S2-LFSQH.
"single pole, 3-speed fan/light dual control. Max ratings are 1.5A fan/300W incandescent/halogen light"
[ref: Lutron Support Center

According to google results this dimmer has a fairly closed chasing, so whatever it was, it was within. Unfortunately, I could not find any picture about the inside of this unit.

Based on the usual circuitry of such dimmers, any mishap within the Si part of the circuitry would result just a full speed operation.
Therefore, my bet lies on the cheap foil cap of the filter circuitry. This cap (and an 1-2W resistor in series, which is a good source for dramatic sparks) usually bridging the triac.
And cheap foil caps are transparent...

 

[DarioC]

Negative results yesterday on the minimum gap UV experiment. I have had an interesting experience with very light soot in a computer tripping ground fault outlets so I am considering that combination and similar situations.

A question for he OP: Did the controller fail, or is it still functional?

 

[OmCheeto]

According to google results this dimmer has a fairly closed chasing, so whatever it was, it was within. Unfortunately, I could not find any picture about the inside of this unit.

Based on the usual circuitry of such dimmers, any mishap within the Si part of the circuitry would result just a full speed operation.
Therefore, my bet lies on the cheap foil cap of the filter circuitry. This cap (and an 1-2W resistor in series, which is a good source for dramatic sparks) usually bridging the triac.
And cheap foil caps are transparent...

I've sent a request to Lutron for an internal diagram of the controller. Crossing my fingers.

But as a couple of people have pointed out, young scientists aren't always forthcoming with exactly how they arrived at their results.
I know my usual response at that age when attempting science but somehow nearly burned the house down was; "I don't know."

 

[jim hardy]

How old is that dimmer / speed controller ? Might it be a three wire style ?

interesting articles on them here..

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/article...-issues-to-ensure-compatibility-magazine.html

https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/jul/ics-answer-the-challenge-of-dimming-led-lamps-in-triac-driven-circuits

 

[OmCheeto]

How old is that dimmer / speed controller ? Might it be a three wire style ?

interesting articles on them here..

http://www.ledsmagazine.com/article...-issues-to-ensure-compatibility-magazine.html

https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2014/jul/ics-answer-the-challenge-of-dimming-led-lamps-in-triac-driven-circuits

Does this help?

Q; "What is the minimum load?"
Lutron; "The minimum load for this dimmer is 40W."​

ps. It may be a few days before I get a response from the company:

Lutronbot; "Thank you for contacting Lutron email support. Your email has been received, and one of our Technical Support Representatives should contact you within 1-2 business days."

Though, it is the holidays, so...

 

[OmCheeto]

Ouch!

Hello [Om],

Thank you for contacting Lutron Support! We would be unable to provide any circuit diagram as this is confidential information. As far as the possibility of this happening, I would need to collect more information:
-What model dimmer was affected?
-Do you know where exactly the UV light was shined?
-Is the dimmer now completely dead or does a part of it no longer work?
If you have any further questions, please feel free to contact Lutron Technical Support, anytime, 24/7.
Thank you,​

bolding mine

edit: Never mind what I said earlier about actually buying one. Not sure what I was thinking. I'll wait for the spring garage sales, and see if I can pick one up for 50¢.

 

[jim hardy]

'll wait for the spring garage sales, and see if I can pick one up for 50¢.

I too love "beating the system" .

And you keep it out of the landfill. Or at least postpone its arrival there by some years.

Anyhow - this thread is interesting. Hopefully somebody will experiment with such a device and a UV. source on the bench

If you want to assure something will positively happen all you have to do is publicly proclaim it impossible.
So, 'Color me skeptical but ready to learn . '

old jim