Vaidya Metrics: Outgoing M(u) Conditions & Phys. Situations

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the conditions that the function M(u) must satisfy within the context of Vaidya metrics, particularly when describing radiating bodies such as those involved in Hawking radiation. Participants explore the mathematical and physical implications of M(u) and its derivation from Schwarzschild coordinates.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions whether M(u) in Vaidya metrics must fulfill specific conditions or if it is entirely free, suggesting that it may need a special form to describe physical situations accurately.
  • Another participant asserts that the derivative of M(u) with respect to u must be negative to ensure positive energy density for emitted radiation, noting that M(u) must also be non-negative.
  • A participant expresses confusion regarding the derivation of the Vaidya metric, specifically questioning the transition from constant M in Schwarzschild coordinates to M(u) in Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates, seeking clarification on the mathematical justification for this change.
  • Another participant explains that deriving the Vaidya metric involves assuming spherical symmetry and that the only stress-energy present is null dust, indicating that a mass M depending on both time and radius can be obtained, but this leads to a coordinate singularity in standard Schwarzschild coordinates.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the conditions that M(u) must satisfy, with some proposing specific restrictions while others question the derivation process and its implications. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the necessity and nature of conditions on M(u).

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the mathematical correctness of transitioning from constant M to M(u) and the implications of using different coordinate systems, particularly concerning coordinate singularities.

Tomas Vencl
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I would like to ask if the function M(u) in Vaidya metrics must fulfil any special conditions, or is it completely free ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaidya_metric#Outgoing_Vaidya_with_pure_Emitting_fieldIn other words, when the outgoing Vaidya metrics describes the metrics of radiating body (for example Hawking radiation), probably the M(u) must have some special form, conditions etc. to be a physical situation description.
Does anyone know some details about this topic ?
Thank you.
 
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Tomas Vencl said:
when the outgoing Vaidya metrics describes the metrics of radiating body (for example Hawking radiation), probably the M(u) must have some special form, conditions etc. to be a physical situation description

##M(u)_{, u}## (the derivative of ##M(u)## with respect to ##u##) needs to be negative for the outgoing Vaidya metric in order for the emitted radiation to have a positive energy density. As far as I know that is the only restriction (other than the obvious one that ##M(u) \ge 0##).
 
Thank you.
I try to understand deriving Vaidya metric, but in the wiki article they just changed the Schw. coordinates of the Schwarzschild metrics to Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates of Schw. metrics and then changed the constant M to M(u) with only remark, that this is still physically reasonable. I understand that this changed the metrics, but I do not see the proof for reasonability and mathematical correctness for this step. (I do not understand why during derivation to E-F coordinates They treat with M as a constant, not a function of u, but at the end They set M to be a function M(u) )
So can I just change the constant M in Schwarzschild coordinates to corresponding transformed function M(t ,r) and also will obtain reasonable solution (not static, non vacuum..) ?
 
Tomas Vencl said:
I try to understand deriving Vaidya metric

The Wikipedia page doesn't derive the metric, it just writes it down and shows its similarities with the Schwarzschild metric.

To derive the metric, you would assume spherical symmetry and that the only stress-energy present is ingoing or outgoing null dust.

Tomas Vencl said:
So can I just change the constant M in Schwarzschild coordinates to corresponding transformed function M(t ,r) and also will obtain reasonable solution (not static, non vacuum..) ?

If you follow the assumptions I just described and work the problem in standard Schwarzschild coordinates, you will indeed find that you have a mass ##M## that depends on both ##t## and ##r##. However, that solution will have a coordinate singularity, which is why the solution is normally done in ingoing or outgoing Eddington-Finkelstein coordinates, which do not have a coordinate singularity in the region of interest.
 

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