News VP Debate: A Battle of Words Between Edwards and Cheney

[Moonbear]

Okay, who's watching the Vice Presidential debate? So nice to hear a debate between two people who are both articulate! So far, it's a lot of my word against your word, though I think Edwards has already made a few blunders. Nothing he's really saying wrong, but phrases that sound like they'll easily be taken out of context for the next series of Bush/Cheney ads.

 

[klusener]

yup, Edwards also seems to be too impatient...If it goes on like this, there is a possibility that Edwards will screw up Kerry's gain in the first debate...

it is as if the roles have been reversed.. Edwards keeps repeating a few phrases like Bush did last time and Cheney is sort of similar to Kerry in his style...

 

[graphic7]

I agree, Moonbear. Edwards has made a few foul-ups. In the beginning, it appeared that he was coming on strong, versus Cheney's constant repetitiveness. One question that I noticed hurt Edwards quite a bit was when he was asked what exactly is the global test compared to not letting the United States be vetoed by other countries. In my opinion, Edwards' response was unsatisfactory. Overall, I think this debate will be close.

Personally, I find both canidates to be very repetitive. This maybe because we heard the Bush-Kerry debate, and we're wanting something new from this debate - hasn't happened, yet.

Edit: I also find both of the candiates to be more hostile towards one another, compared to that of Kerry and Bush. That's about the only reason I'm watching, now.

 

[Moonbear]

Well, Edwards sounds more repetitive because he's repeating a lot of what Kerry already said. I agree with you that he really screwed up on the "global test" question. Cheney doesn't sound as repetitive, but that's just because he has a greater vocabulary than Bush, so is saying more than Bush did. They are certainly very closely matched competitors in this debate.

Adding on...wow, Cheney is vicious! A few very barbed insults toward Edwards' Congressional record.

 

[Gokul43201]

Cheney's an amazing debater...but it looks like Edwards is getting better - he's made a couple of good points and one bad one (in the last 10 minutes).

 

[kat]

Ithink this one goes to Cheney.
I can't believe Edwards brought up Cheney's gay daughter.

 

[Moonbear]

Ithink this one goes to Cheney.
I can't believe Edwards brought up Cheney's gay daughter.

Yeah, that was pretty low. Then again, they've both tossed around some veiled insults, and some not so veiled ones. This is certainly more fun to watch than the Bush/Kerry debate! Edwards can't control the facial expressions either. He isn't as skilled of a debater...inexperience I think.

 

[kat]

Edwards needs to stop rubbing his nose, it's a strong sign that someone feels they are lying or will be caught lying...but then most people probably don't realize that, do they?

 

[graphic7]

I was disappointed at the moderator in one instance - this was the point where she had pointed the question at Cheney, but Cheney thought she might've made a mistake and corrected her that it was Edwards' question. She thinks for a second and replies that the question does indeed go to Cheney, and she had forgotten because of Edwards' lack of reponse to concerning the question about Israel. I thought that was a tad rude, and it made the moderator seem biased towards Cheney. It was also unfair to Edwards, given the moderator and Cheney were against him in that sense. The audience laughed, and I could tell that it embarrassed Edwards.

Edit: I like the last moderator - Leher, better than this one.

 

[Moonbear]

Edwards needs to stop rubbing his nose, it's a strong sign that someone feels they are lying or will be caught lying...but then most people probably don't realize that, do they?

As I looked up to the TV after reading this line, I caught Cheney rubbing his nose! No, I wasn't aware this meant anything and hadn't noticed until now!

 

[Moonbear]

I was disappointed at the moderator in one instance - this was the point where she had pointed the question at Cheney, but Cheney thought she might've made a mistake and corrected her that it was Edwards' question. She thinks for a second and replies that the question does indeed go to Cheney, and she had forgotten because of Edwards' lack of reponse to concerning the question about Israel. I thought that was a tad rude, and it made the moderator seem biased towards Cheney. It was also unfair to Edwards, given the moderator and Cheney were against him in that sense. The audience laughed, and I could tell that it embarrassed Edwards.

I haven't been too impressed with this moderator all along. She seems to screw up a lot of the questions, and has to restate them. I find it confusing. She's screwed up a few times on whose turn it is.

 

[kat]

edwards closing statements..*blink* *blink* *Blink*

What was Cheny talking about when he rubbed his nose, I missed it?

 

[kat]

I think she was weak, didn't enforce the rules well but she's always been that way so I wasn't surprised. I think her questions were fairer to both then Lehrers were.

 

[GENIERE]

Edwards - *****, moan, whine, but a plan for everything.

A cakewalk for Cheney!

 

[Moonbear]

edwards closing statements..*blink* *blink* *Blink*

What was Cheny talking about when he rubbed his nose, I missed it?

Unfortunately, I missed what he said because I was reading the replies here, and just caught it as I looked up. It was the final question. But, you know, they could just have itchy noses. Or could be a nervous habit too. I got the impression they were both giving half-truths for answers, they just each give the half of the truth that fits their particular side of the story.

 

[wasteofo2]

I think it was a pretty pathetic debate, both of the candidates ended up repeating the same exact things with the same exact rebuttals over and over again and could never stay on topic.

Though it's pretty clear, Cheney won.

 

[Moonbear]

Well, I think this one was very close. If I was pressed to give a winner, I'd say Cheney had the slight edge on this one. But that's why I made sure I got home in time to watch the debate tonight...I had a feeling Cheney would give me a better perspective that Bush did on what their objectives are for the next 4 years. Not that it helps give me any confidence in Bush that he needs Cheney to speak for him, but at least it's not so painful to listen to Cheney speak. Gosh, I was almost thinking Cheney and Edwards were going to come to blows about halfway through the way they both got so nasty!

 

[kat]

Edwards failed to really reassure that he had the qualifications to take over as president after Cheney so clearly outlined the obligation of the VP to take over for the president.

 

[Gokul43201]

Among 140,000 voters (at last edit time) at joe.msnbc.com 76% say EDWARDS WON !

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/

 

[kat]

lol, I think that's pretty meaningless Gokul. Thanks for the chuckle though.

 

[Moonbear]

Among 83,000 voters (right now) at joe.msnbc.com 78% say EDWARDS WON !

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/

Really? I don't think Edwards did so badly as to undermine Kerry's clear-cut win in the first debate, but I don't think he came out ahead.

 

[Gokul43201]

My pleasure ! CNN will show online results soon. I'll be back with more entertainment.

 

[Gokul43201]

CNN, with 55,000 votes (at edit time) has Edwards 82%, Cheney 14%, Even 4% !

Better than a ball of wool, eh ?

 

[Moonbear]

I just checked out that link Gokul. Wow! Though it's down to 76% when I voted, so maybe a lot of Kerry supporters got in early just to bias the early reports to have a bigger impact. They must not have even waited for the debate to end to vote so quickly.

On CBS News just now, they just reported 29% Edwards won, 42% Cheney, 29% tie.

 

[kat]

mmm, I won't buy any poll I see at this point without the internals. I don't even think they can poll the east coast (or deep south) because it's so late in the evening.

 

[graphic7]

I agree that Edwards didn't do his best, but he didn't do his worst either. I doubt he'll hurt all the momentum that the Kerry compaign now possesses. So long, Bush.

 

[Gokul43201]

I just checked out that link Gokul. Wow! Though it's down to 76% when I voted, so maybe a lot of Kerry supporters got in early just to bias the early reports to have a bigger impact. They must not have even waited for the debate to end to vote so quickly.

On CBS News just now, they just reported 29% Edwards won, 42% Cheney, 29% tie.

The online polls didn't appear till just after the debate ended. I too was shocked when I first saw something like 15,000 votes within about a minute of opening.

 

[Moonbear]

Kat, some of these polls are just off the internet...whoever goes to the MSNBC website can vote on that one. I wasn't quite clear whether the one I saw reported on CBS was a local poll or national one. They've been mentioning following about 200 local undecided voters, so that could have been them they were talking about.

 

[Gokul43201]

mmm, I won't buy any poll I see at this point without the internals. I don't even think they can poll the east coast (or deep south) because it's so late in the evening.

Yeah, these are more for entertainment...and they are not scientific polls anyway. The votes will eventually swing towards Cheney, I believe, but I think it will be closer than the previous debate, and hence have a smaller effect on general polling numbers.

 

[wasteofo2]

Wow, I'm a fervent Kerry/Edwards supporter, but I don't see how 70+% of the people could think Edwards won, where it was a rare poll that showed John Kerry even doing that well.

Kerry did much better than Bush in the deabte, and comparatively better than Edwards. Cheney did much better than Edwards in the debate, and comparatively better than Bush.

At least with the Democrats, the guy they want to be #1 is the guy who's the best. Wheras with the Republicans, Cheney clearly had a better handle on numbers, facts, small details, a wide range of issues, and was just a more coherent person/debater in general.

Does anyone really doubt that Cheney's really the head of ship?

 

[kat]

Wasteof02- I believe (I really need to dbl check it but...) that those who heard Bush/Kerry on radio or only read the transcript rated Bush higher then Kerry. Hence the Bush won on content/Kerry won on style comments.

 

[Gokul43201]

Ithink this one goes to Cheney.
I can't believe Edwards brought up Cheney's gay daughter.

I don't think this was low at all. Edwards was showing respect for Cheney's stand on the issue. He wasn't trying to muscle anything out of this...

 

[Gokul43201]

Hence the Bush won on content

I find that quite surprising !

 

[Gokul43201]

Wow, I'm a fervent Kerry/Edwards supporter, but I don't see how 70+% of the people could think Edwards won, where it was a rare poll that showed John Kerry even doing that well.

wo2, this number started near 80% and has been dropping steadily to 70%...I think it will continue to drop for a while, as people listen to analysts/hear clips/read transcripts.

 

[wasteofo2]

Wasteof02- I believe (I really need to dbl check it but...) that those who heard Bush/Kerry on radio or only read the transcript rated Bush higher then Kerry. Hence the Bush won on content/Kerry won on style comments.

What do you think swayed people who read it or only heard it?

Was it the "Yeah, uhh, I uhh, you see, i... uhh, I'm doin' hard work, lotsa' people are workin' hard, it's uh... see, it's hard work workin' this hard to attain such a hard goal."? Was it the mindless repetition? Was it the failure to rebut any of Kerry's main points or defend Kerry's attacks on his own? All Bush said was that it was hard work, Kerry is inconsistant, he is consistant/strong, criticism is bad, Kerry is critical.

 

[Moonbear]

Wasteof02- I believe (I really need to dbl check it but...) that those who heard Bush/Kerry on radio or only read the transcript rated Bush higher then Kerry. Hence the Bush won on content/Kerry won on style comments.

I'm not buying that. I went back and read through the transcripts of that first debate to make sure I didn't miss anything of substance while distracted by the ums, and there really isn't anything there. At one point, Bush said something to the effect of (paraphrasing here), "I already explained that earlier" so I went to look through the responses to the previous questions to see if he indeed did answer the question in a previous response (I thought it likely since that first debate was very repetitive in terms of the questions asked). There was no such answer.

 

[Tigers2B1]

Among 140,000 voters (at last edit time) at joe.msnbc.com 76% say EDWARDS WON !

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3036789/

That's a click as you go poll. Vote as much as you want - just wipe your cookies poll. Get your computer program to vote for you poll.

Considering, I'd say it's not a valid poll -

 

[Moonbear]

Wow, I'm a fervent Kerry/Edwards supporter, but I don't see how 70+% of the people could think Edwards won, where it was a rare poll that showed John Kerry even doing that well.

Kerry did much better than Bush in the deabte, and comparatively better than Edwards. Cheney did much better than Edwards in the debate, and comparatively better than Bush.

At least with the Democrats, the guy they want to be #1 is the guy who's the best. Wheras with the Republicans, Cheney clearly had a better handle on numbers, facts, small details, a wide range of issues, and was just a more coherent person/debater in general.

Does anyone really doubt that Cheney's really the head of ship?

I agree with your assessment. But we've always known this administration is just a ventriloquist act. That's why Bush can't speak when Cheney isn't present feeding him his lines. If Bush and Cheney traded places, I would be giving them much more serious consideration.

 

[kat]

Moonbear- As I mentioned, I need to check it out further (but who has the time?) I can't remember where i referenced it from and I watched it on the only channel we receive out here (CBS, NOT FOX as some like to suggest =P ). One thing that might skew the views of those who listen on radio might be a higher % of radio listeners could be...conservative. *shrug* I don't have the numbers to support it at this point, I just threw it out there as something I've read/seen/heard over the last few days.

 

[kawikdx225]

If Bush and Cheney traded places, I would be giving them much more serious consideration.

Even if they traded places their view on issues are the same. You imply that your vote is based upon surface impressions!

 

[Moonbear]

Moonbear- As I mentioned, I need to check it out further (but who has the time?) I can't remember where i referenced it from and I watched it on the only channel we receive out here (CBS, NOT FOX as some like to suggest =P ). One thing that might skew the views of those who listen on radio might be a higher % of radio listeners could be...conservative. *shrug* I don't have the numbers to support it at this point, I just threw it out there as something I've read/seen/heard over the last few days.

Fair enough. It's really easy for any given poll to be skewed one way or another based on the sampling methods, and in such a close race, I'm trying not to draw too many conclusions from polls since the margin of error usually exceeds the differences. Nov 2 is going to be a nail-biter of an evening watching the returns coming in. I'm thinking I should have a party to watch the returns...help survive the suspense!

 

[Moonbear]

Even if they traded places their view on issues are the same. You imply that your vote is based upon surface impressions!

Oh, I didn't mean it would sway my vote. I'm voting on my opinions about their views on the issues, but I do find it hard to take Bush seriously when he comes across so scatter-brained. I don't agree with Cheney's views on policy, but at least he shows leadership ability. Though, to some extent, when both candidates probably agree on at least 70% of the issues (I don't really know how much, I just made up that number, but it's really pretty high), one has to consider not just what someone wants to do, but whether they actually have the leadership skills to pull it off.

 

[wasteofo2]

I agree with your assessment. But we've always known this administration is just a ventriloquist act. That's why Bush can't speak when Cheney isn't present feeding him his lines. If Bush and Cheney traded places, I would be giving them much more serious consideration.

I dunno, regardless of their policies, if George Bush wasn't president and Dick Cheney was, would you really want George Bush as your VP? Or in any government position really? He's like a Dan Quayle but less eloquent.

 

[kat]

Did you pick up on Cheney's one big mistake?

 

[wasteofo2]

Did you pick up on Cheney's one big mistake?

The policies he was defending were all horrible failures.


I loved it when he was talking about how to deal with poverty, and started talking about creating jobs as the best solution, and that getting people working in good paying jobs is the bes way to combat poverty. Meanwhile, he's the leader of the first administration to lose jobs since the great depressoin, and the jobs they have created to make up for the ones they lost pay about $9,000 less than the new ones.

God, I'm so pissed at Edwards for letting so much important crap slide and focusing on stupid stuff the way he did...

 

[kat]

Oh please.
Cheney said " www.factcheck.com[/url] " instead of " [url]www.factcheck.org[/URL] "

 

[wasteofo2]

Oh please.
Cheney said " www.factcheck.com[/url] " instead of " [url]www.factcheck.org[/URL] "[/QUOTE]
I actually did catch that when he said it, but the fact that his administration has lost jobs, the first since the great depression, and that he then talked about creating jobs was way bigger in my mind. Call me crazy I guess...

 

[kat]

No, I'll call you young and inexperienced. As a small business owner, I appreciate the Bush/Cheney approach.

 

[Moonbear]

I dunno, regardless of their policies, if George Bush wasn't president and Dick Cheney was, would you really want George Bush as your VP? Or in any government position really? He's like a Dan Quayle but less eloquent.

Hmm...considering Cheney's health, that might be a big risk. If Bush wins, do you think there's any chance they'll have pretzels at the inaugural ball? (It's a joke!)

 

[Moonbear]

No, I'll call you young and inexperienced. As a small business owner, I appreciate the Bush/Cheney approach.

Which approach is that - hiring back previously laid-off employees for lower salaries, or not paying for their health insurance because it's so exhorbitantly expensive?

Seriously, what about their approach do you find appealing?