WA moves to ban copper in brake pads

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    Brake Copper
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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the recent move by Washington state to ban copper in brake pads due to environmental concerns, particularly its impact on aquatic life. Participants explore the implications of this ban, the evidence supporting it, and the potential costs and benefits associated with such a policy.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants note that while laboratory studies indicate copper can harm young salmon, there is no documented evidence of widespread problems in natural settings.
  • Others argue that further research is necessary to assess the actual impact of copper runoff from brake pads compared to other sources, such as copper mines.
  • There is a suggestion that a cost-benefit analysis should be conducted to evaluate the environmental benefits against the economic implications of the ban.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the seriousness of the copper pollution issue, suggesting that other pollutants from vehicles may be more harmful.
  • A few participants highlight the potential economic benefits of banning copper, such as freeing up copper for other uses and possibly reducing its price.
  • Concerns are raised about the adequacy of existing studies, particularly regarding background copper levels in the environment and the toxicity of other materials in brake pads.
  • Some participants question the motivations behind the ban, suggesting it may be more about political action than addressing a significant environmental issue.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views, with no clear consensus on the necessity or effectiveness of the ban. Some support the ban as a precautionary measure, while others question its validity and the evidence behind it.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of comprehensive data on the actual environmental impact of copper from brake pads compared to natural background levels and other sources of pollution. Additionally, the discussions reflect varying interpretations of the existing research and its implications.

Greg Bernhardt
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This is an interesting piece I am torn about. Copper from brake pads are known to run off into water ways. It is also known in lab experiments that the copper levels found in the water ways can affect salmon. Yet, there is no documentation for this happening in the wild. The state is going ahead and banning copper in brakes. Is this jumping the gun or an acceptable preventative measure?

Researchers have yet to document any instances in nature of copper from urban runoff causing widespread problems for aquatic life. But laboratory studies by government scientists have shown that copper at the low levels that have been found in waterways harms young coho salmon's sense of smell, reducing their ability to escape from predators.

http://www.komonews.com/news/local/90643739.html
 
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Seems reasonable to me. Research on the matter should probably continue; if more data shows that there is no problem, the ban can be lifted.
 
Like anything else, this is a system with too many variables to consider. Copper from the brakes could be the culprit, but one is still going blind without a proper investigation. If they are proved right then they were lucky, if proved wrong then unlucky.
 
As with all issues in public policy, we need to do a cost-benefit analysis. There is some evidence that the policy might provide a benefit to the environment. But, what about the costs of such a ban? From the article:
The auto industry did not oppose the legislation.
The industry believes it can produce a safe and reasonably priced brake pad without copper, said Terry Heffelfinger, director of product engineering for Affinia Global Brake & Chassis, a major brake maker. One alternative may be ceramic brake pads, which have grown in popularity in recent years.

This suggests that the costs associated with banning copper are very low and not likely to affect brake prices or availability. Given that the costs of such a policy are low, the ban seems reasonable. If the monetary costs associated with such a ban were high, you could make the case that the state should require stronger evidence before enacting the ban.
 
Ygggdrasil, do you think any run off from the ~700 copper mines in WI could contribute to this problem rather than car brakes?
 
Greg Bernhardt said:
Ygggdrasil, do you think any run off from the ~700 copper mines in WI could contribute to this problem rather than car brakes?

Why would those to be mutually exclusive?
 
CRGreathouse said:
if more data shows that there is no problem, the ban can be lifted.

Technically you are right, politically... once you ban copper (heavy metal! it is toxic! it kills our kids!) there is no way back.
 
Copper is expensive as hell. The Chinese are buying it by the ton like it is penny candy. Banning copper in brake pads would free up copper for other uses, which would bring the price down a couple of cents. nothing noteworthy though.
 
There is copper in asphalt roofing shingles too. Are they going to ban that as well? How about antifouling paints in ships/boats?

Kill the humans!
 
  • #10
It's almost like copper comes from the ground.
 
  • #11
In order to determine the contribution of brake pads to copper loading to the San Francisco Bay, the Santa Clara Valley Nonpoint Source Pollution Control Program performed a study which was published a study in February 1994 entitled the Contribution of Heavy Metals to Storm Water from Automotive Disc Brake Pad Wear. The purpose of the study was to determine the copper content of brake pads and to model the stormwater load from these results. Its authors were unable to obtain information on brake pad composition and wear rates voluntarily from automobile and brake pad manufacturers. Instead, they conducted laboratory tests to analyze disc brake composition. From the results of stormwater load models, the Program estimated that dust from disc brake pad wear contributes over 40 percent of the non-point source copper loading to the Bay, or approximately 35 percent of the total copper load. Figure 1 shows the contribution of brake pads to the total copper load to the Bay. Brake pads are the largest single source of copper discharge to the Bay that has been identified thus far...
http://scvurppp-w2k.com/cu_control_measures/Brake%20Pads/Other%20Related%20Information/B_brkrpt.pdf
 
  • #12
chemisttree said:
Kill the humans!

Finally, a voice of reason.
 
  • #13
So if everyone is done venting, maybe this question could be addressed intelligently?
 
  • #14
Interesting, I never would have thought about brake pads being a serious water pollutant.
 
  • #15
Couple other points that need an answer before we know such a ban would have a useful impact:

What about background? Neither the scvurppp-w2k or komonews links show how brake pad copper pollution raises the Cu concentrations over background trace. Seawater already contains http://mistupid.com/chemistry/seawatercomp.htm" . The studies did a lot work on showing how much brake pad Cu dust contributes to the overall man made Cu load, but if that's small compared to the natural background so what?

What about the rest of the brake pad composite material, whatever it is? If that happens to be far more toxic than the Cu component, then spending effort to remove Cu is likely wasted.
 
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  • #16
Evo said:
Interesting, I never would have thought about brake pads being a serious water pollutant.

I doubt they are.
 
  • #17
Activists have to feel accomplished about something. "We banned copper in brake pads! Yeah, go team!"


I doubt it is a serious problem, as there are far more harmful things coming off of cars than a minute amount of dust from a brake pad.
 
  • #18
MotoH said:
Activists have to feel accomplished about something. "We banned copper in brake pads! Yeah, go team!"


I doubt it is a serious problem, as there are far more harmful things coming off of cars than a minute amount of dust from a brake pad.

They are looking to fix those problems too... this is one of them and it happens to be a very easy fix. Why not go for it?
 
  • #19
zomgwtf said:
They are looking to fix those problems too... this is one of them and it happens to be a very easy fix. Why not go for it?

That's what I'm thinking, too. The fact that the auto industry says it's no big deal is telling. They seem to cry about every little thing.
 

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