Fair Treatment as a PhD Graduate: My Experience in Michigan and India

[cristo]

Look, my mom talked to SEVERAL people and they ALL say that it is COMMON PRACTICE for advisor to put his name on student's work. In fact, I was told that it is so common that if both names are there, it is typically understood that a student did most of the work.

IF I MISUNDERSTAND IT, OR MY MOM WAS MISINFORMED, that has nothing to do with Bombelli. It has to do with professors who talked to my mom, and I am NOT going to tell you their names, since I don't want you to think I am accusing THEM of scientific misconduct. And by the way they don't evne KNOW Bombelli so whatever advise they gave is to MY best interest, which again means there was no "misconduct" on their part.

You need to stop shouting at people who are giving you advice. After all, you posted your story here for comments.

It is usual for students to have their supervisors on their papers because, for the most part, their supervisor will have done some of the work, had the idea, written sections etc etc. I'm not in a position to judge whether or not this is true in your case; I was merely pointing out the 'rules' (as atyy has pointed out) are pretty strict on such things. Therefore, you should be careful about accusations you are making whether you intended to or not.

Okay, how about this: if I go ahead and delete everything I wrote, will you NOT get me into trouble?

I'm not planning on getting you into trouble! You should, however, be aware of the consequences of making such comments on the internet. Remember that the internet is public, and viewable by anyone, and bear that in mind when commenting (/complaining) about your academic career.

 

[Vanadium 50]

the work is mine

As far as the mutual publication with Bombelli, all the calculations and physics content is MINE.

like I said I was the one who did all the content; Bombelli simply editted English for me

It doesn't matter that you like Bombelli. It doesn't matter that you agreed to this. It doesn't even matter if your mother said it's okay (although, to be honest, that's the first time I have ever heard this argument from someone with a doctorate). If the facts are as you say, Bombelli has engaged in scientific misconduct by affixing his name to someone else's work.

This is exceedingly serious.

 

[Count Iblis]

It is common practice for some authors to have contributed almost nothing toward paper. It strictly speaking violates journal guidlines, but you very often have a collaboration in which it is agreed that someone will be second or third author of one paper in exchange for collaboration on a related topic leading to other papers. That authorship is then earned for simply discussing a few minor points in which the collaboration on the new topic is agreed on.

Some people find this unethical and would refuse the offer to become second/third author in a paper they didn't conribute to, but many people I know don't have such problems. This is not considered to be scientific fraud, at least not in the field I work in.

 

[causalset]

It is usual for students to have their supervisors on their papers because, for the most part, their supervisor will have done some of the work, had the idea, written sections etc etc.

Okay, I am not accusing Bombelli ... I am going to say what my mom told me she heard from her professor friends, none of them know Bombelli.

Anyway, as far as my conversation with my mom goes (the one where she based her opinion on what her professor friends told her), I was telling her that I don't want to put Bombelli's name because then no one will know it is my work. Her response was that yes they will, and the way they will know is that it is common practice for students to put the advisor's name on it.

Now, if you say that the reason it is common practice is that advisors do part of the work, then my mom wouldn't have told me that everyone would know it is MY work and not his.

Again, no accusations in Bombelli's adress. He never said anything to this effect. That is what my mom was told by her friends who were professors.

You should, however, be aware of the consequences of making such comments on the internet. Remember that the internet is public, and viewable by anyone, and bear that in mind when commenting (/complaining) about your academic career.

Streets are also public, but if I say something on the street, then no matter WHAT I say and no matter WHO hears me, I can't get into trouble (the only exceptions would be admitting a crime, or saying there is a fire when there is none).

I assumed internet is the same way. Well, sure there is a difference in that I can be banned from the forum, but that difference is internal to the forum I am at. I thought that LEGALLY internet is the same as a street, which means that I won't have consequences for what I say BEYOND being banned from the forum.

If I am wrong, then I am sorry for what I said. I certainly did NOT intend to make LEGAL accusations against anyone I was talking about. I assumed internet is the same as the street. If it isn't, then I appologise.

 

[atyy]

It is usual for students to have their supervisors on their papers because, for the most part, their supervisor will have done some of the work, had the idea, written sections etc etc. I'm not in a position to judge whether or not this is true in your case; I was merely pointing out the 'rules' (as atyy has pointed out) are pretty strict on such things. Therefore, you should be careful about accusations you are making whether you intended to or not.

I did convey an impression that the rules are strict when I posted the APS's, but then when I checked PNAS's, they list writing a paper, which presumably includes massive editing. So maybe causalset might even consider asking his supervisor to be an author on the subsequent papers if the supervisor's "editing" amounts to "writing"? All involved should agree on authorship/non-authorship before the work commences (at least in some sort of "good faith", bearing in mind that the results of research are unknown, and we cannot predict who is going to make what discoveries in advance), and certainly before the paper is submitted to a journal.

 

[causalset]

It doesn't matter that you like Bombelli. It doesn't matter that you agreed to this. It doesn't even matter if your mother said it's okay (although, to be honest, that's the first time I have ever heard this argument from someone with a doctorate). If the facts are as you say, Bombelli has engaged in scientific misconduct by affixing his name to someone else's work.

This is exceedingly serious.

Okay, look, if Bombelli didn't do that work that he did, the paper would NOT look professional, and therefore even if I did press a botton and post it to arxiv, it would look bad.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT GRAMMAR. I am talking about the whole style thing. My natural writing style is very long winded. He made it very concise. Also, I wouldn't have used scientific names such as "holonomy"; he did. I wouldn't be able to make introduction brief and to the point, he did.

By the way HE wrote all introduction and ALL conclusion. YES originally I wrote both sections; but he have re-written them compeltely. This doesn't change the fact that ideas and calculations are mine; but still the quality of the paper is much better on MANY MANY levels BEYOND grammar and spelling.

 

[Vanadium 50]

It is common practice for some authors to have contributed almost nothing toward paper. It strictly speaking violates journal guidlines, but you very often have a collaboration in which it is agreed that someone will be second or third author of one paper in exchange for collaboration on a related topic leading to other papers. That authorship is then earned for simply discussing a few minor points in which the collaboration on the new topic is agreed on.

Some people find this unethical and would refuse the offer to become second/third author in a paper they didn't conribute to, but many people I know don't have such problems. This is not considered to be scientific fraud, at least not in the field I work in.

But this isn't the situation here. The situation here is, according to causalset, that he did all of the work, and the only thing Bombelli did was editing the text. I am aware of no journal that will accept this, nor of any scientific society that considers this acceptable. Indeed, a number of them specifically forbid this - see the APS guidelines, for example.

 

[Count Iblis]

But this isn't the situation here. The situation here is, according to causalset, that he did all of the work, and the only thing Bombelli did was editing the text. I am aware of no journal that will accept this, nor of any scientific society that considers this acceptable. Indeed, a number of them specifically forbid this - see the APS guidelines, for example.

Yes, I know that this is specificaly forbidden, but it still happens a lot. To be honest, in the past, I have been guilty of doing this myself two or three times (my name appearing on a paper to which I made infinitessimal contributions and vice versa). Many people I know do this quite often.


Not so long ago I was offered to be third author of a paper to which I contributed almost nothing to, and I refused. What I did would, according to most journal guidlines, merit nothing more than a brief mention in the acknowledgment section, and that's what happened.

 

[causalset]

But this isn't the situation here. The situation here is, according to causalset, that he did all of the work, and the only thing Bombelli did was editing the text. I am aware of no journal that will accept this, nor of any scientific society that considers this acceptable. Indeed, a number of them specifically forbid this - see the APS guidelines, for example.

The reason I said I did "all the work" is because we were talking about my skills to do PHYSICS, so I said I did all the physics.

Okay, let me show you how that is compatible with the fact that BOMBELLI DID A LOT OF WORK. I will list what I did and what Bombelli did:

I saw him every month or two, and my visits were week long

1. During my visit, I would tell him what I will do, so the idea is mine

2. We will DISCUSS IT AT LENGTH, and I won't do it unless HE APROVES. He rejected 90% of my ideas. So EVEN THOUGH the ideas are mine, it is due to HIS APPROVAL that I am doing the 10% I am doing, as opposed to 90% of other stuff

3. I would then go home and do all the calculations. So FIRST ROUGH DRAFT of calculations is mine

4. Then on my next visit, he will look through all of my calculations IN DETAIL. It would take him a full week to look through it, and every day of that week he spends most of the day looking through them as well to the point he puts teaching off

5. In the process there aer some simple algebra mistakes that WE BOTH correct TOGETHER (me and him)

6. Then I go home again and write ROUGH DRAFT of the paper. Again, FIRST ROUGH DRAFT is mine

7. Then I email him the rough draft.

8. Then I come visit him, and we both look through rough draft and again do editting.

9. Most of the editting of rough draft is HIS not mine, since I am clueless when it comes to writing

10. Even though on my first rough draft I have written EVERYTHING (main part AS WELL AS intro and conclusion) typically he has to delete the intro and conclusion I have written and rewrite it entirely.

NOW THE REASON I SAID I DID ALL THE WORK IS BECAUSE OF 1, 3 AND 6. BUT I AM NOT ACCUSING HIM OF MISCONDUCT BECAUSE HE DID THE REST.

 

[Count Iblis]

Okay, look, if Bombelli didn't do that work that he did, the paper would NOT look professional, and therefore even if I did press a botton and post it to arxiv, it would look bad.

I AM NOT TALKING ABOUT GRAMMAR. I am talking about the whole style thing. My natural writing style is very long winded. He made it very concise. Also, I wouldn't have used scientific names such as "holonomy"; he did. I wouldn't be able to make introduction brief and to the point, he did.

By the way HE wrote all introduction and ALL conclusion. YES originally I wrote both sections; but he have re-written them compeltely. This doesn't change the fact that ideas and calculations are mine; but still the quality of the paper is much better on MANY MANY levels BEYOND grammar and spelling.

This sort of collaboration leading to both names to apper on a paper is even less controversial. It happens far more often than the more problematic type of "collaboration" in which one or more authors do almost nothing.

 

[Jasongreat]

How can someone choose a path(college), and then get upset when he doesn't follow the rules of his teachers and advisors? If you choose to go into the system you must abide by the rules of the system, period, or you have to live with the consequences. If you don't want to follow rules don't go into the system. Last I checked Newton, Einstien, Faraday, Edison, Tesla(could probably go on and on) didnt have degrees let alone a doctorate, although some of the above did get honorary degrees after the fact. You don't need college to become a physicist, although it does make it a lot easier(all the info is in one place), it is not required.
If you don't like to follow the rules(too good for them,remember all discoveries are usually repudiations of existing rules), then do it on your own and you only have to follow your own rules, however you have to remember that you will have to fight harder than someone that does follow the system because they will have a degree(supposed proof of emminent knowledge) and you wont, but if a theory you come up with is true (and can be proven)how can they dispute you? I'm not saying they won't dispute you just because of the fact that you might be destroying something they were taught to be true, you will surely have to fight for everything you earn, but it will be earnt not given. (sorry for the spelling and grammar, but that's what happens when you choose not to go to college,LOL)

 

[atyy]

The reason I said I did "all the work" is because we were talking about my skills to do PHYSICS, so I said I did all the physics.

Okay, let me show you how that is compatible with the fact that BOMBELLI DID A LOT OF WORK. I will list what I did and what Bombelli did:

I saw him every month or two, and my visits were week long

1. During my visit, I would tell him what I will do, so the idea is mine

2. We will DISCUSS IT AT LENGTH, and I won't do it unless HE APROVES. He rejected 90% of my ideas. So EVEN THOUGH the ideas are mine, it is due to HIS APPROVAL that I am doing the 10% I am doing, as opposed to 90% of other stuff

3. I would then go home and do all the calculations. So FIRST ROUGH DRAFT of calculations is mine

4. Then on my next visit, he will look through all of my calculations IN DETAIL. It would take him a full week to look through it, and every day of that week he spends most of the day looking through them as well to the point he puts teaching off

5. In the process there aer some simple algebra mistakes that WE BOTH correct TOGETHER (me and him)

6. Then I go home again and write ROUGH DRAFT of the paper. Again, FIRST ROUGH DRAFT is mine

7. Then I email him the rough draft.

8. Then I come visit him, and we both look through rough draft and again do editting.

9. Most of the editting of rough draft is HIS not mine, since I am clueless when it comes to writing

10. Even though on my first rough draft I have written EVERYTHING (main part AS WELL AS intro and conclusion) typically he has to delete the intro and conclusion I have written and rewrite it entirely.

NOW THE REASON I SAID I DID ALL THE WORK IS BECAUSE OF 1, 3 AND 6. BUT I AM NOT ACCUSING HIM OF MISCONDUCT BECAUSE HE DID THE REST.

Yes, that seems clear by APS and PNAS policies that your supervisor deserves to have his name on the paper, eg. 2 is really being part of the creative process. Perhaps you should offer him to be an author on all your subsequent papers for which he does as much work as you have listed above? Just suggesting, I don't know the details, but something to think about, and discuss/re-discuss with him.

 

[Pyrrhus]

I wouldn't pay more attention to casualset's claim that he did all the work... Even from his actions described in his story, and how he reacts to everyone's opinion, you can tell he writes without paying much attention to what he is writing. For example, Vanadium casually commented having a PhD does not translates to being a Good Researcher, and then he replied by claiming he doesn't know how to publish in journals (unlikely for someone with a PhD from a reputable school like UMICH), and he claims that he did all the work in his published papers, even though he is a co-author.

Now, casualset further clarifies that Bombelli (the other co-author) did participate actively in the paper... :uhh:.

 

[cristo]

Streets are also public, but if I say something on the street, then no matter WHAT I say and no matter WHO hears me, I can't get into trouble (the only exceptions would be admitting a crime, or saying there is a fire when there is none).

If a person who is thinking of employing you hears you slagging off a previous employer in such a way as you have done here, then he will think twice about employing you. That is my point. I'm not talking about you being banned, or you being involved in legal battles, I'm simply saying that you should watch what you say, since you never know who is listening who may have an influence in your career in the future.

 

[causalset]

If a person who is thinking of employing you hears you slagging off a previous employer in such a way as you have done here, then he will think twice about employing you. That is my point. I'm not talking about you being banned, or you being involved in legal battles, I'm simply saying that you should watch what you say, since you never know who is listening who may have an influence in your career in the future.

Look, that is PRECISELY the one thing I was missing which ruined my career. I was assuming that if I don't do well with prof. X, then Prof. X will be the only person who would ever know I didn't do well. So then when I was awaken to the fact that prof. X talks ot other profs and it has impact on my career, I was shocked, hence this whole post.

Now, ANOTHER MISTAKE TO THE SAME AMOUNT is that I think that no matter who overhears me on the streets, even if it be my next employer, they aer not allowed to base anything on it since it is not a document with my signature on it. Again, same exact mistake.

Okay, Asperger Syndrome is a form of autism. So it means I am not good when it comes to human interactions. THAT is why I am getting confused.

 

[Count Iblis]

Lubos Motl also has Asperger Syndrome. So, perhaps you should behave like he does to be successful :rofl:

 

[shoehorn]

Okay, Asperger Syndrome is a form of autism. So it means I am not good when it comes to human interactions. THAT is why I am getting confused.

I'm continually amazed by the number of people one encounters on the internet who have Asperger's syndrome. It's almost as common an ailment as idiocy and habitual lying.

Lubos Motl also has Asperger Syndrome. So, perhaps you should behave like he does to be successful

If you've ever had the misfortune to meet dear Lubos you'll know that his problem is not Asperger's syndrome. It's simply that he's a deeply, deeply unpleasant person.

 

[Pyrrhus]

Yes, let's hope that for Roman's sake he doesn't end up as Lubos. Considering that Lubos was fired from Harvard when he was just an assistant professor, right?

 

[Vanadium 50]

Last I checked Newton, Einstien, Faraday, Edison, Tesla(could probably go on and on) didnt have degrees let alone a doctorate, although some of the above did get honorary degrees after the fact.

The modern concept of a "PhD" goes back only to the mid-to-late 19th century. That excludes Newton (who, incidentally, did have a degree from Trinity), Faraday, and possibly Tesla and Edison. Yale adopted the modern PhD program in 1861, being the first school in the US to do so. Edison would have been 14 then. Edison was a very successful inventor and businessman, but made few if any contributions to fundamental science. Tesla's situation is particularly unclear - some sources say he had a degree from Graz, others say he did not.

Einstein had a PhD from ETH.

I would encourage you to take a look at Nobel prize winners in Physics and see how far back you have to go to find one without an advanced degree.

 

[Wax]

This guy is too funny. He seems like a Virgina Tech just waiting to happen. :roflmmm...Now that I think about it, you're about to go postal aren't you? You wrote an extremely long post outlining the past 8 or so years of your life. Damn, you lost it haven't you?

I reached a breaking point and yelled at him "go back to China!" (he was Chineeze) Then he said "are you serious". And then I said "yes I am, you Chineese do not belong to USA ..." Then he said "come with me". I then said "look I am sorry I have Asperger Syndrome,

So because I was mad at him calling it that way, I decided to deliberately run up to another student, who was black and yell at him how "niggers" don't belong to USA. So then he took me to police and reported both.

I "scared" Wells when I didn't want to let him go after he refused working with me (Wells is white, so that is NOT racism)

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm continually amazed by the number of people one encounters on the internet who have Asperger's syndrome. It's almost as common an ailment as idiocy and habitual lying.

I'm not that surprised. A small fraction of people generating a large number of messages can make the frequency of contact higher than one would guess by looking at the incidence in the population.

What is odd about this case is that the behavior attributed to Asperger's seems quite atypical. He says "he cannot control himself" and in his description of the incident with the African-American student, says that because he was unhappy with how one person treated him, he set out to deliberately hurt a completely separate person - by calling him a racial epithet and telling him he wasn't welcome in the US.

 

[Fra]

Lubos Motl also has Asperger Syndrome. So, perhaps you should behave like he does to be successful :rofl:

Really? I didn't know this. Not that I know a lot about Aspergers but I suddenly see a higher level rationality behind Lubos somewhat aggressive and which I claimed before narrow reasoning expressed in posts and blogs.

Well, I guess we are all different which is usually not a bad thing at all.

/Fredrik

 

[xxChrisxx]

It's clear the base of all your problems is your inability to follow instructions correctly. Your post on the other forum just seemed to be a catalouge of your errors and misunderstandings.

I don't doubt your physics or maths ability, I am sure you ar egifted at it.But as I love analogies:

It's like a racing driver that is fastest person ever, they are consistently setting the fastest laptimes in everything level of racing they do. Yet never follow the instruction to come in for fuel. If they are in a lower level race where no one refuels, there is not a problem, but when they get to a race that requires it they fail.It doesn't matter how gifted you are, if you cannot produce results then there is something very very wrong. You were fine at lower levels when there wa more support and you had less autonomy. It seemed from your post the minute you had to organise yourself you couldn't do it.Maybe from this point on, you should confirm all instructions and make a better attempt to organise yourself. +1 for they were more patient than they needed to be.

 

[dx]

"I don't like the axioms" and "I couldn't accept the fact that strings can "twist around" without being able to say that "they consist of molecules and these molecules PUSH each other in such a way that the collection of these molecules twists around" and also your attempt to "rewrite string theory" in a month based on these reasons (at a time when you didn't even know quantum field theory!), all seem like pretty immature positions for a graduate student. To me, it looks like a clear sign that you overestimate both your knowledge and ability.

 

[brf4n]

I have recently got my ph.d. (last May) in Michigan and right now I am doing postdoc in India. But, even though the situation that I am about to describe is few years in the past, I would still like your take as to whether you think I been treated farly or not. In order to present accurate picture the story is quite long so this forum doesn't allow that size of a post. For that reason I will simply refer you to another forum where I made the same post, and then you can come back here and respond.

Here it is: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt106767.html

You probably just need to take a break.

 

[Jasongreat]

The modern concept of a "PhD" goes back only to the mid-to-late 19th century. That excludes Newton (who, incidentally, did have a degree from Trinity), Faraday, and possibly Tesla and Edison. Yale adopted the modern PhD program in 1861, being the first school in the US to do so. Edison would have been 14 then. Edison was a very successful inventor and businessman, but made few if any contributions to fundamental science. Tesla's situation is particularly unclear - some sources say he had a degree from Graz, others say he did not.

Einstein had a PhD from ETH.

I would encourage you to take a look at Nobel prize winners in Physics and see how far back you have to go to find one without an advanced degree.

Woops, Sorry for being wrong(not the first time and surely not the last). Youre right I should have checked into my argument a lot better. I agree that Edison doesn't really fit in here, as we were discussing acedemics, but I included him to show that good things CAN and DO happen outside the institution, and that it is not absolutely neccesary to go into the institution in order to be successfull, so if you do CHOOSE to go into the system you should try to abide by the system you chose to go to, instead of going but not doing what they ask of you and then bitching about being treated unfairly. Sorry again I should have known better than to try and get a faulty argument by a bunch of physicists. It is surely not my intention to be thrown into the group of people that whine about 2+2 being three, but so far I feel that's where I have placed myself on this forum.

P.S. Even though it was my mistakes that lead to my being corrected, and thank you for correcting me as my statements were barely worth the time taken to correct them, Was I Treated Fairly? LOL.

 

[Preno]

I have recently got my ph.d. (last May) in Michigan and right now I am doing postdoc in India. But, even though the situation that I am about to describe is few years in the past, I would still like your take as to whether you think I been treated farly or not. In order to present accurate picture the story is quite long so this forum doesn't allow that size of a post. For that reason I will simply refer you to another forum where I made the same post, and then you can come back here and respond.

Here it is: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt106767.html

Dude. You cannot keep blaming everything, no matter how unrelated, on your "Asperger's". Asperger's doesn't cause people to be racist *******s, nor does it absolve you from being responsible for not meeting the deadlines and so on. The first step to recovery is to actually acknowledge your fault, rather than desperately looking for absurd justifications.

 

[Geometrick]

I will not even make a judgement about whether or not you were treated fairly.

I am STUNNED (STUNNED!) you are bringing this up in such a public forum. The fact that you air this issue out on a message board and leave yourself almost no anonymity is astounding.

 

[Count Iblis]

The fact that you air this issue out on a message board and leave yourself almost no anonymity is astounding.

Unless he really has Asperger's

 

[shoehorn]

For what it's worth, one of the people that the OP mentioned in his rant has told me a rather interesting story. The upshot of it is that the mods may wish to remove this thread now to head off any involvement in any legal action which may be taken.

 

[Pyrrhus]

For what it's worth, one of the people that the OP mentioned in his rant has told me a rather interesting story. The upshot of it is that the mods may wish to remove this thread now to head off any involvement in any legal action which may be taken.

I'm not sure about the veracity of this statement, but I'm sure this thread won't benefit the OP. Just consider that the OP provided an unpleasant story while identifying each character by their real names. Furthermore, his own name although not present is easily trackable. Unfortunately, casualset's story is just a recipe for disaster.

 

[Count Iblis]

Another question is if he is giving his girlfriend enough time:

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=314124

 

[Geometrick]

I think we should close this thread before any more damage is done. This guy is saying some borderline unnerving things about a respected scientist.

 

[Vanadium 50]

The first step to recovery is to actually acknowledge your fault, rather than desperately looking for absurd justifications.

The OP does acknowledge his fault. What he doesn't do is accept the consequences of these actions.

As he admits himself - people told him what he had to do, and he didn't believe them. Somehow, that means that it's not his fault. Huh?

The other bizarre thing is that the OP wants to be "famous like Einstein" (see the girlfriend thread), so obviously wants people talking about him. The thing is, he complains it's unfair when people talk about him. How can he have it both ways? I can understand him not liking the fact that the main topic of discussion is his repeated screw-ups, but again, whose responsibility is that?

Finally, I have concluded that what the OP is really fishing for is not our opinions, but some sort of validation that yes, he is a genius who was treated unfairly by "the system". A validation it looks unlikely that he will get.

I think there is a lesson in this - grad school faculties want their students to succeed. the advice they are giving is worth paying attention to, and where the OP went awry is when he decided that he knew better, and would do something else.

 

[brf4n]

I think we should close this thread before any more damage is done. This guy is saying some borderline unnerving things about a respected scientist.

yeah, the kind of manic attitude the TC represents won't get you anywhere...it's ok to think those things about people, but you have to realize it's not acceptable to act out, and...he just needs to grow up, whether it be with counseling or medication.

if everyone is against you...it's probably you that's the problem, and not them. i used to be like that, and it really reflects your emotional problems. not everyone is out to get you.

if you are thinking like that, and you don't want to change, you should probably get out of the situation.