Water, piston-cylinder problem [Thermodynamics]

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a thermodynamics problem involving a piston-cylinder arrangement containing water as a saturated liquid/vapor mixture. Participants explore the implications of heating the system, which causes the volume to triple, and seek to determine the final temperature and heat transfer during the process.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines the initial conditions of the system, including mass, pressure, and specific volume, and attempts to calculate the final state after heating.
  • Another participant questions the applicability of the ideal gas law for this scenario, suggesting it may yield a temperature that seems inconsistent with the expected results.
  • A later reply emphasizes the importance of not using the ideal gas law for non-ideal gases and suggests calculating reduced properties to assess the situation more accurately.
  • Participants discuss the potential for the final state to be superheated vapor and the challenges in using steam tables to find the corresponding temperature.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the use of the ideal gas law in this context and whether the final state can be accurately determined using steam tables. There is no consensus on the correct approach or the final temperature.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the limitations of using ideal gas assumptions for non-ideal gases and the need for reduced properties to better understand the system's behavior. The discussion reflects unresolved mathematical steps and the complexity of interpreting steam table data.

Who May Find This Useful

Students and professionals interested in thermodynamics, particularly those dealing with phase changes and properties of fluids in piston-cylinder systems.

leafjerky
Messages
43
Reaction score
7

Homework Statement


Okay, so these are usually pretty easy for me to understand, but this one doesn't make sense.

10 kg of water in a piston cylinder arrangement exists as saturated liquid/vapor at 100 kPa, with a quality of 50%. It is now heated so the volume triples. The mass of the piston is such that a cylinder pressure of 200 kPa will float it. Find the final temperature and the heat transfer in the process.

Homework Equations


v = V/m
v - specific volume
V - volume
m - mass

y = yf +xyfg

The Attempt at a Solution



State 1:[/B]
m1 = m2 = m = 10kg
x1 = .5 ---> 2-phase mixture
P1 = 100 kPa = 1 bar
v1 = .0010432 m3/kg + (.5)(1.694 - .0010432)
v1 = .8475 m3/kg

State 2:
v2 = 3*v1 = 2.5425 m3/kg
P2 = 200 kPa --> pressure is constant from this point on

Solutions I have found online say that the final temp is in the 800's. How is that possible? I went into my steam tables (Fundamentals of Engineering Thermodynamics, Moran) and I couldn't figure out the state. I assume it is a superheated vapour. Is this right? If so, I go to the tables and the temp could probably be interpolated between 1.5 bar and 3 bar, but even then it's not close to 800. I believe the answer is 827 or 829 degrees C. Thanks for any help.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
What temperature does the ideal gas law give you? (This is a pretty low pressure).
 
Thank you! I've always been under the assumption to never use ideal gas for non ideal gases though? This is a first for me. Is there a way to know? Thanks again
 
leafjerky said:
Thank you! I've always been under the assumption to never use ideal gas for non ideal gases though? This is a first for me. Is there a way to know? Thanks again
Calculate the reduced pressure and the reduced temperature. Then, see the chart in Moran et al for the Z factor. Or better yet, calculate the pseudo-reduced volume and the reduced pressure and use the Z chart in Moran.

Chet
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
32K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
12K
Replies
1
Views
3K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
11K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
4K
  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
14K
  • · Replies 10 ·
Replies
10
Views
2K
  • · Replies 19 ·
Replies
19
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
2K