News What Exactly Is Happening In the Arab/Persian World?

[humanino]

Obama addressing Mubarak is a 180 degree shift in US foreign policy? Could you please explain? In what time frame do you mean - the last two years?

I had in my mind a 180 degrees with respect to the previous policy, before his administration altogether, and in particular w.r.t. GWB. That is a relevant ingredient in Obama's peace prize (as sad as it is to admit it). For instance, France's minister of foreign affairs officially declared their opposition to Tunisia Jasmine Revolution. I have not seen the US administration commit such faux pas.

 

[mheslep]

I had in my mind a 180 degrees with respect to the previous policy, before his administration altogether, and in particular w.r.t. GWB. That is a relevant ingredient in Obama's peace prize (as sad as it is to admit it). ...

GWB? Bush spoke out in favor of democracy in the Middle East - aggressively so, and often, though not continuously. Sec of State Rice went to Cairo and gave a speech doing the same. I'll provide references if you like. So I'm not clear what you mean.

 

[Proton Soup]

GWB? Bush spoke out in favor of democracy in the Middle East - aggressively so, and often, though not continuously. Sec of State Rice went to Cairo and gave a speech doing the same. I'll provide references if you like. So I'm not clear what you mean.

i think he is referring to GWB's policy to not even engage with countries like Iran. Obama reversed that. we can talk, even if we don't agree.

 

[humanino]

If you do not see any shift in the US administration foreign policy in the Middle East between GWB and Obama, I am sorry, do not intend to justify the above statements, and will refer to wikipedia.

the speech would attempt to mend the United States' relations with the Muslim world, which he wrote were "severely damaged" during the presidency of GWB

For that matter, note also that nobody ever threw a shoe at Obama.

If you disagree with the wikipedia article or my opinions in general, let us leave this at a disagreement. I shared my opinion and did not state it as a fact but rather as an interpretation or ingredients for an interpretation. The relevant messages I posted in this thread were properly phrased as "I was wondering [...]", "I was thinking [...]" or "I had in mind [...]".

 

[mheslep]

If you do not see any shift in the US administration foreign policy in the Middle East between GWB and Obama, ...

I thought we referring in particular to events in Egypt, and in particular there to what degree have various administrations supported "people taking to the streets."

In the context of Egypt, I have to wonder how many people were motivated by [...] the speech by Obama [...] to take to the streets?

I was actually wondering about that, but I thought I would not post it here because some may feel this is too much attributing to him. I am sure Vanadium knows that history is made by tens or hundreds of thousands of individuals, while history books remember only a few leaders. The reason I was thinking about this is rather in terms of Obama's prize as an incentive to pursue the 180 degrees shift in US foreign policy in the middle east (one of the possible interpretations of the prize),

Thus I thought we were discussing a comparison of US support for (or to ignore?) democratic movements such as I hope are breaking out now in Egypt. Again, the question is not how warm and cozy is the US with the Middle East, but who via their policy has supported the idea of democratic breakouts on behalf of the people there, and who wants to do, well, otherwise.

I believe that freedom is the future of the Middle East, because I believe that freedom is the future of all humanity. And the historic achievement of democracy in the broader Middle East will be a victory shared by all. Millions who now live in oppression and want will finally have a chance to provide for their families and lead hopeful lives.
...
Western nations, including my own, want to be helpful in the democratic progress of the Middle East, yet we know there are suspicions, rooted in centuries of conflict and colonialism. And in the last 60 years, many in the West have added to this distrust by excusing tyranny in the region, hoping to purchase stability at the price of liberty. But it did not serve the people of the Middle East to betray their hope of freedom. And it has not made Western nations more secure to ignore the cycle of dictatorship and extremism. Instead we have seen the malice grow deeper, and the violence spread, until both have appeared on the streets of our own cities. Some types of hatred will never be appeased; they must be opposed and discredited and defeated by a hopeful alternative -- and that alternative is freedom.
...
The rise of Iraqi democracy is bringing hope to reformers across the Middle East, and sending a very different message to Teheran and Damascus
...
Thank you, and God bless the good people of Turkey.

http://www.america.gov/st/washfile-english/2004/June/20040629081619frllehctim0.1081812.html

Secretary Rice, 2005 speech in Cairo:

Ladies and Gentlemen: In our world today, a growing number of men and women are securing their liberty.

And as these people gain the power to choose, they create democratic governments to protect their natural rights.

We should all look to a future when every government respects the will of its citizens -- because the ideal of democracy is universal.

For 60 years, the United States pursued stability at the expense of democracy in the Middle East -- and we achieved neither.

Now, we are taking a different course. We are supporting the democratic aspirations of all people.

As President Bush said in his Second Inaugural Address: “America will not impose our style of government on the unwilling. Our goal instead is to help others find their own voice, attain their own freedom, and make their own way.
...
Here in the Middle East, the long hopeful process of democratic change is now beginning to unfold.

Millions of people are demanding freedom for themselves and democracy for their countries.

To these courageous men and women, I say today: All free nations will stand with you as you secure the blessings of your own liberty.

 

[Nicodemus]

I don't get the sense that who is in charge of the US has much to do with what's happening in Egypt, or what happened in Tunisia; this has been coming for a long time.

 

[humanino]

Again mheslep, I am sure you understand that I do not wish to argue at this time. I am stating an opinion which I believe it is not hard to conceive is shared by others. It is fine that you do not share it and let us leave it at that. Take the Nobel press release

Obama has as President created a new climate in international politics. Multilateral diplomacy has regained a central position, with emphasis on the role that the United Nations and other international institutions can play. Dialogue and negotiations are preferred as instruments for resolving even the most difficult international conflicts. The vision of a world free from nuclear arms has powerfully stimulated disarmament and arms control negotiations. Thanks to Obama's initiative, the USA is now playing a more constructive role in meeting the great climatic challenges the world is confronting. Democracy and human rights are to be strengthened.

When they say "new" or "more constructive", it does refer to a comparison with what was before. That is their opinion, I have mine, you have yours, let us leave the moderators at PF enjoy their friday.

 

[OmCheeto]

Correct. And what happened today?? No violence, no Molotov cocktails, no knives, no guns, no fire – just dancing and cheering masses of peaceful people...

Have the pro-Mubarak goons given up already!? What happened??

I’m very curios on what is going to 'explain' this... "The Goons Day of Rest and Reloads"...??

They've not given up.

Tahrir Square is calm, compared to recent days. One of our correspondent says people are queuing on Kasr al-Nil bridge to get into the square. The army is manning checkpoints, searching bags and checking IDs, to make sure no "infiltrators" can get in.

Outside of the square is a different matter:

But sporadic clashes continue to rage downtown just 500 metres from the square, and Egyptian contacts say many other residential neighbourhoods are not safe for journalists - gangs operate unofficial checkpoints, and some foreigners have been dragged out of their cars and assaulted.

http://blogs.aljazeera.net/middle-east/2011/02/04/live-blog-feb-5-egypt-protests"

 

[Naty1]

Likely no one will ever know for sure what's happening in Egypt. All we are likely to see is the eventual outcome. One big reason is that some radical groups intentionally cloak their activity to hide it from the general public. Even if peaceful protesters, let's say mostly students, started the demonstrations, it's certainly possible that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood could gain control because they are better coordinated, have a plan and are better organized. If a radical group is successful we'll see the outcome; if not, likely we'll never know why.

Meantime, I have seen reports that various other terrorist groups are now traveling to Eqypt, ostensibly to take advantage of instability and unrest. The last time I remember a "popular" uprising, in Iran, a theocracy ensued and oppression relative to the Shah who was as brutal as Mubarak likely got worse when the mullahs took over Iran.

Let's just hope the majority of the Eqyptian people get something good out of all this.

 

[WhoWee]

Likely no one will ever know for sure what's happening in Egypt. All we are likely to see is the eventual outcome. One big reason is that some radical groups intentionally cloak their activity to hide it from the general public. Even if peaceful protesters, let's say mostly students, started the demonstrations, it's certainly possible that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood could gain control because they are better coordinated, have a plan and are better organized. If a radical group is successful we'll see the outcome; if not, likely we'll never know why.

Meantime, I have seen reports that various other terrorist groups are now traveling to Eqypt, ostensibly to take advantage of instability and unrest. The last time I remember a "popular" uprising, in Iran, a theocracy ensued and oppression relative to the Shah who was as brutal as Mubarak likely got worse when the mullahs took over Iran.

Let's just hope the majority of the Eqyptian people get something good out of all this.

I agree with your assessment. The question I've had since this began is what do they want - beyond Mubarak leaving. This is why I think President Obama and others should find a way to keep Mubarak in place until the 80 million people of Egypt can find a voice - not just the few thousand protesting in Cairo.

Perhaps reporters will begin to focus on a "needs analysis" of the 80 million people? The first step in problem solving is to identify the problems - beyond the sound bites of high unemployment and low pay. By focusing on needs and letting things cool down, reason will prevail.

Don't the radicals always win the the emotional - short term debate?

IMO -the correct thing to do now is find a way for the people of Egypt to make long term informed decisions about their future - not short term emotional decisions.

 

[AlephZero]

This is why I think President Obama and others should find a way to keep Mubarak in place until the 80 million people of Egypt can find a voice - not just the few thousand protesting in Cairo.

Why do you think the US has the divine right to tell the rest of the world how to organize itself?

Perhaps reporters will begin to focus on a "needs analysis" of the 80 million people? The first step in problem solving is to identify the problems - beyond the sound bites of high unemployment and low pay. By focusing on needs and letting things cool down, reason will prevail.

Same comment as above, re "reporters".

IMO -the correct thing to do now is find a way for the people of Egypt to make long term informed decisions about their future - not short term emotional decisions.

I'm sure there are plenty of people who think that the world would be a much better place if the USA had absolute control of all of it. However I (and a few billion others) are not among them.

 

[OmCheeto]

Likely no one will ever know for sure what's happening in Egypt. All we are likely to see is the eventual outcome. One big reason is that some radical groups intentionally cloak their activity to hide it from the general public. Even if peaceful protesters, let's say mostly students, started the demonstrations, it's certainly possible that groups like the Muslim Brotherhood could gain control because they are better coordinated, have a plan and are better organized. If a radical group is successful we'll see the outcome; if not, likely we'll never know why.

Meantime, I have seen reports that various other terrorist groups are now traveling to Eqypt, ostensibly to take advantage of instability and unrest. The last time I remember a "popular" uprising, in Iran, a theocracy ensued and oppression relative to the Shah who was as brutal as Mubarak likely got worse when the mullahs took over Iran.

Let's just hope the majority of the Eqyptian people get something good out of all this.

I posted something similar to this on Facebook yesterday.

Nothing.

If that's what Egyptians want, then that's what they'll have. I would post a link to Al Jazeera where they reported that Iran has been hanging the political opposition over the last two weeks, but Al Jazeera is down at the moment.

Democracy is about choices. When the government executes any dissenting voices, what choice do you have? Iran under a theocracy is no different than Egypt under Mubarek. The people are stuck with what they've got.

Hopefully, the Egyptians will realize this, and not institute more of the same, under a different name.

So I'd say, show your support for the Egyptians, cross your fingers, and hope for the best.

was my response to "What do we do if the Muslim Brotherhood takes over?"

Fortunately, http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2011/01/201112514128271328.html" is back up.

 

[Nicodemus]

Why do you think the US has the divine right to tell the rest of the world how to organize itself?



Same comment as above, re "reporters".



I'm sure there are plenty of people who think that the world would be a much better place if the USA had absolute control of all of it. However I (and a few billion others) are not among them.

Where is all of this USA stuff coming from, as though we're not the reason Egypt has a military that can inhibit mass slaughter of civilians? I guess the answer to your question is the old one: no divine right, just guns and steel, money and diplomacy. You don't have to like it, but pretending that giving over a billion in aid to a country every year doesn't buy you influence is naive.

Would you downplay the ability of China to influence North Korea just because you don't like the message or the messanger?

 

[WhoWee]

Why do you think the US has the divine right to tell the rest of the world how to organize itself?

Same comment as above, re "reporters".

I'm sure there are plenty of people who think that the world would be a much better place if the USA had absolute control of all of it. However I (and a few billion others) are not among them.

Please note I said "President Obama and others " - meaning other world leaders. As for reporters - did I say US reporters? How else would 80 million people find out what is going on in their country (in a reasonable amount of time) - other than fair reporting?

As for the few billion people who want the US to go away - I agree! I'm tired of sending tax money to people who don't appreciate it.

 

[mugaliens]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_[URL="https://www.physicsforums.com/insights/when-did-mitochondria-evolve/"]mitochondria[/URL]l_DNA_haplogroups" , are basically 'cousins' since between 70,000 and 60,000 years ago.

I think B came to S. America via the S. Pacific route. But that's my opinion...

 

[mugaliens]

Although I don't have an opinion on what is happening in Egypt, nor do I really care. Imo the people of every country have the right to do what ever they want as long as it doesn't affect my country.

Agreed. Unfortunately, what's happening in the Middle East is affecting all nations, and will continue to affect all nations.

It was born of the enlightenment, when people were becoming aware of their natural rights and started to believe http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/" ...

Exactly.

According to my reading of history, the founders pleaded with their king many, many times before they resorted to throwing of the shackles and went about forming our own government. The ideas were born of studying the history of other governments and was planned and started to be implemented long before they ever started to rise up. They tried one form of republicanism, before and during the revolution, but when that form was found lacking shortly after, they changed it to the form of republicanism that we had for a while thereafter.

I think most people think the Founders were just some rich land-owners who threw some ideas around a room for a couple of weeks until everyone agreed on a form of government everyone could accept, then followed that with a Declaration of Independance and later, a Constitution, the latter of which needs radical reform to "keep up with the times."

Nothing could be further from the truth. Most of the founders had been very well-read students of other governmental systems for decades, including what worked, what didn't, and why. Our Constitution is based on mankind himself, human nature, to preserve the "inalienable rights" spoken of in the Declaration of Independance, so as to provide for the needs of all citizens such that they can have "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness."

It's needed a couple of tweaks over the years, but it's stood in it's near-original form very well over the last quarter-millennia for one simple reason: They Got It Right.

However, the egyptians haven't even decided what form their new government is going to take, all they know is they want this one gone and will riot till it happens.

I agree that this is what the Egyptian masses may believe, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate" they're hoping to instill, one way or another, and they've been working towards it since 1924.

I think Egypts problems are only going to get worse, I hope I'm wrong. As I truly feel it is the Egyptian people's right to change their government if they wish to do so, I just think they are going about it the wrong way.

Agreed.

And I am sick of the comparisons with the US revolution, what is happening there and what happened here are nothing alike, so far.

I disagree. I see a lot of similarities between what most Egyptians are faced with and are trying to accomplish and what the American Colonists are faced with and are trying to accomplish:

American Colonists: Oppressed (via British military troops), over-taxed (King George became RICH off them), and desiring to throw off both the oppression and the taxation.

Egyptian Citizens: Oppressed (via Egypt's Police), over-taxed (Mubarak's net worth is $70 Billion), and desiring to throw off both the oppression and the taxation.

I also see a lot of differences, including one principle difference: The Colonists had a sincere desire to allow everyone to worship as they see fit. If anyone has any doubts that this is similar to what's going on in the Middle East, there's a lot of homework they haven't done.

 

[WhoWee]

This something I've been wondering - how much does Mubarak control financially? This places his holdings at a very substantial level - but doesn't indicate he controls the core Egyptian businesses. I suspected he might control the insurance and banking industries in Egypt?
http://www.newsmax.com/InsideCover/...h/2011/02/04/id/385057?s=al&promo_code=B9D5-1

"Egyptian President Hosni Mubarak and his family have amassed a fortune estimated at $70 billion according to analysis by Middle East experts poll by the London Guardian. And very little of that stash is kept in his own country, they say. Much of his wealth is in British and Swiss banks or tied up in real estate in London, New York, Los Angeles and along expensive tracts of the Red Sea coast. "

 

[turbo]

This account might be instructive. The Egyptian secret police still have incredible power over domestic affairs, apparently, and detain foreigners with impunity.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/06/weekinreview/06held.html?_r=1&hp

 

[klimatos]

I also see a lot of differences, including one principle difference: The Colonists had a sincere desire to allow everyone to worship as they see fit. If anyone has any doubts that this is similar to what's going on in the Middle East, there's a lot of homework they haven't done.

That doesn't jibe with my own readings in American History. As far as I can tell, every American Colony except for Rhode Island was settled by religious bigots who forced their particlar beliefs on all who chose to settle there. At the time of the Revolution, there were many tolerant and well-educated citizens, but even a man as tolerant as Thomas Jefferson despised Catholicism. The common people were no more tolerant of religious differences than they are today--by all evidences a great deal less so.

By the way, there was a proposal by some of the framers of the Constitution to include a mention of God and Jesus in the document. It was put to a vote and defeated. Hence, no mention except in the date (Anno Domini, AD).

 

[Al68]

Oh Mr. Avocado... Please give that lady in your art work there a jacket please!

No jacket needed! The breasts of a goddess must be exempt from PF anti-nudity rules (assuming that's Lady Liberty being depicted). :!)

I think it was fairly common in the past to depict the Goddess Liberty topless. Wasn't such a depiction even on a coin at one time?

 

[russ_watters]

That doesn't jibe with my own readings in American History. As far as I can tell, every American Colony except for Rhode Island was settled by religious bigots who forced their particlar beliefs on all who chose to settle there.

I don't know about many of the colonies, but I do know it was not true of Pennsylvania:

William Penn as an English Quaker sought to construct a new type of society with religious toleration and a great deal of freedom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_Government

 

[Werg22]

I agree that this is what the Egyptian masses may believe, but http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caliphate" they're hoping to instill, one way or another, and they've been working towards it since 1924.

From what I've gathered, the Muslim Brotherhood is not behind the protests, but only a small part of it. Nothing warranting the title of "being behind the scenes". All noted experts I've heard speak on the subject have said that in a free and fair election, the MB would not win a majority of seats. Care to elaborate?

 

[Al68]

That doesn't jibe with my own readings in American History. As far as I can tell, every American Colony except for Rhode Island was settled by religious bigots who forced their particlar beliefs on all who chose to settle there...

Can you cite your source for that claim?

 

[Nicodemus]

The MB seems invovled in negotiations, but they clearly are not the force that's moving people in Egypt. I don't see how this call for better economic conditions and freedoms would jive with a theocracy. I guess Mubarak really sold that line well over these 30 years.

 

[WhoWee]

From what I've gathered, the Muslim Brotherhood is not behind the protests, but only a small part of it. Nothing warranting the title of "being behind the scenes". All noted experts I've heard speak on the subject have said that in a free and fair election, the MB would not win a majority of seats. Care to elaborate?

Again, the 80 million people of Egypt need time to make decisions based on reason and facts (actual solutions for need) - not the emotional decisions made by a very small (even one million is small in this context) crowd in the largest city.

By example - would all Americans be represented if 100,000 angry New Yorkers decided the best way to govern the US?

 

[OmCheeto]

Again, the 80 million people of Egypt need time to make decisions based on reason and facts (actual solutions for need) - not the emotional decisions made by a very small (even one million is small in this context) crowd in the largest city.

By example - would all Americans be represented if 100,000 angry New Yorkers decided the best way to govern the US?

I was thinking something similar yesterday. What if all 14,000,000 unemployed people showed up on Pennsylvania Avenue tomorrow demanding a "change".

What would the other 293,000,000 Americans think of that?

 

[Nicodemus]

If people could act in that concerted manner when it was in their best interests, we wouldn't be people.

 

[Char. Limit]

I was thinking something similar yesterday. What if all 14,000,000 unemployed people showed up on Pennsylvania Avenue tomorrow demanding a "change".

What would the other 293,000,000 Americans think of that?

We should totally try that, just to see what happens. And hey, they're unemployed. Do they have anything better to do? (Aside from all that stuff that people do, like looking for jobs)

 

[OmCheeto]

If people could act in that concerted manner when it was in their best interests, we wouldn't be people.

?

Would we be ants then?

 

[Werg22]

Again, the 80 million people of Egypt need time to make decisions based on reason and facts (actual solutions for need) - not the emotional decisions made by a very small (even one million is small in this context) crowd in the largest city.

By example - would all Americans be represented if 100,000 angry New Yorkers decided the best way to govern the US?

What does that have to do with what I asked?

 

[Nicodemus]

?

Would we be ants then?

We'd be acting in a fashion that's more consistant with insect behaviour, but it would be far too enlightened for that.

 

[WhoWee]

What does that have to do with what I asked?

To keep us on the same page - you poised the question:
"Originally Posted by Werg22
From what I've gathered, the Muslim Brotherhood is not behind the protests, but only a small part of it. Nothing warranting the title of "being behind the scenes". All noted experts I've heard speak on the subject have said that in a free and fair election, the MB would not win a majority of seats. Care to elaborate? "

And I responded with:
"Again, the 80 million people of Egypt need time to make decisions based on reason and facts (actual solutions for need) - not the emotional decisions made by a very small (even one million is small in this context) crowd in the largest city.

By example - would all Americans be represented if 100,000 angry New Yorkers decided the best way to govern the US? "

My point is the crowds observed in Cairo - estimates of tens of thousands to one million - are gathered in unity with one purpose - to rid the country of their leader. Beyond that goal - they don't appear to have an on-going strategy.

I think we all agree that emotions are running high in the crowd - correct? Do we also agree that people are engaged in emotion-based behavior that is not typical (in Cairo)?

In this heightened state of emotion, groups like the Muslim Brotherhood and other idealists will seek the opportunity to speak and organize the crowd - to win new supporters of their cause. This is not unique to the Cairo protests. In the short term, the support might be robust. Once the new recruits go home, think about their new relationships, and discuss their new ideology with family and friends - the emotional support might fade?

Does the Muslim Brotherhood control the crowd? I don't think so - but I'm sure they'd like an opportunity to be the voice - even though they would only be SHORT TERM voice of the relatively small part of the 80 million population.

If Egypt will move forward as a democracy - all 80 million people should be represented. I'm not certain the group of people throwing rocks in the streets truly speak for the entire populace - are you?

 

[klimatos]

I don't know about many of the colonies, but I do know it was not true of Pennsylvania: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frame_of_Government

I stand corrected on Pennsylvania. For the rest, just google on "religious persecution in American colonies". In some areas, being a Quaker carried the death penalty, and Baptists were treated just as badly. Jail terms, fines, and whippings were common fare for dissenters. The histories of Roger Williams and Anne Hutchinson are examples. By the time of the drafting of the Constitution, things had improved significantly. Many of the laws remained on the books, but were not enforced as often.

 

[klimatos]

If Egypt will move forward as a democracy - all 80 million people should be represented. I'm not certain the group of people throwing rocks in the streets truly speak for the entire populace - are you?

Nobody speaks for the "entire" populace--most certainly not the present ruling class of Egypt. I lived in Egypt for three years and have been back many times since. I do believe that the sentiments you see being expressed by the demonstrators on TV truly represent the sentiments of those parts of the Egyptian people that bother to think about such things; i. e., the educated elements.

The Muslim Brotherhood ("Ikhwan") is not monolithic. The beliefs of the members range from extreme religious fundamentalism to tolerant liberalism. I agree that fundamentalism is dangerous; but I thinks all fundamentalist groups have a poor grasp of reality. That goes for Muslim fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists and Jewish fundamentalists and any other group that believes that a return to the (supposedly pure) beliefs or practices of the past is workable today.

 

[WhoWee]

Nobody speaks for the "entire" populace--most certainly not the present ruling class of Egypt. I lived in Egypt for three years and have been back many times since. I do believe that the sentiments you see being expressed by the demonstrators on TV truly represent the sentiments of those parts of the Egyptian people that bother to think about such things; i. e., the educated elements.

The Muslim Brotherhood ("Ikhwan") is not monolithic. The beliefs of the members range from extreme religious fundamentalism to tolerant liberalism. I agree that fundamentalism is dangerous; but I thinks all fundamentalist groups have a poor grasp of reality. That goes for Muslim fundamentalists and Christian fundamentalists and Jewish fundamentalists and any other group that believes that a return to the (supposedly pure) beliefs or practices of the past is workable today.

Aside from wanting Mubarak out - what do they want? What are the specific needs of the people? What is the business climate?

 

[Char. Limit]

Aside from wanting Mubarak out - what do they want? What are the specific needs of the people? What is the business climate?

They don't know what they want. They've basically united on a message of "Get the hell out, we don't care how."

 

[WhoWee]

They don't know what they want. They've basically united on a message of "Get the hell out, we don't care how."

That is the great concern isn't it? Klimatos actually lived in Egypt - I'd like to hear what he thinks needs to be done moving forward. We know that unemployment is high and wages are low - but how might Egypt attract higher paying jobs?

 

[mheslep]

I stand corrected on Pennsylvania. For the rest, just google on "religious persecution in American colonies". ...

Of course there was religious persecution, one could argue it still exists, but the existence of persecution is a far cry from your original claim, https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3122510&postcount=470"

 

[Proton Soup]

http://edition.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/meast/02/01/jordan.government/"

http://www.hurriyetdailynews.com/n....-mubarak-to-heed-calls-for-change-2011-02-01"

Frank G. Wisner is sent to Egypt by US President Obama to negotiate a resolution.

interesting guy that Wisner. seems he was already bought and paid for.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...us-envoys-business-link-to-egypt-2206329.html

Frank Wisner, President Barack Obama's envoy to Cairo who infuriated the White House this weekend by urging Hosni Mubarak to remain President of Egypt, works for a New York and Washington law firm which works for the dictator's own Egyptian government.

Mr Wisner's astonishing remarks – "President Mubarak's continued leadership is critical: it's his opportunity to write his own legacy" – shocked the democratic opposition in Egypt and called into question Mr Obama's judgement, as well as that of Secretary of State Hillary Clinton.

 

[WhoWee]

interesting guy that Wisner. seems he was already bought and paid for.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...us-envoys-business-link-to-egypt-2206329.html

I expect the President's inexperience is to be exploited from time to time. However, I don't know what to think about Secretary of State Hillary Clinton? It appears she is not in charge. Her progressive policies aside, she is much more capable than results indicate - IMO.

 

[Evo]

People shouldn't jump to conclusions based on the first story they read.

As I indicated yesterday, the idea that just because diplomat Frank Wisner worked for the Patton Boggs law firm, that didn't necessarily mean that he was personally involved in working on matters related to Egypt. Now comes this from Justin Elliott in Salon:

"The law firm of Frank Wisner, who was the Obama administration's special envoy to Egpyt last week, is denying that Wisner ever worked for the Egyptian government, which has been a client of the firm, Patton Boggs

continued

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/michaeltomasky/2011/feb/08/egypt-obama-administration

 

[Nicodemus]

As for what's going on in Egypt, more and larger protests is what. This man, who also helped organize these protests, seems to have given some new spirit to the protesters.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2011/02/08/google-executive-hailed-hero-online/

 

[Proton Soup]

Democracy is a virus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcnrxiAf3E8

 

[Nicodemus]

Democracy is a virus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcnrxiAf3E8

Wow, I want to hate and make fun of the man, but really he's just old and bitter and I can't find that anything but sad. That said, viral replication doesn't have to be a bad thing; it's been working for viruses for a while now, and they regularly kick our butts. Maybe he meant it more in a threatening way to arab leaders, and less in the, 'Agent Smith' way?

Or maybe he's bat-guano crazy, old, mean, and trying to give biden a run for the, "Say WHAAAT?!" medal.

 

[WhoWee]

Democracy is a virus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcnrxiAf3E8

What type of "democracy" is spreading? I wonder if everyone will be treated as equals?

 

[Proton Soup]

What type of "democracy" is spreading? I wonder if everyone will be treated as equals?

that's a good question. with what strain did we inoculate Iraq and Afghanistan? perhaps it is one of those.

currently tho, the hosts appear to be mounting a defense to the infection, as evident from the inflammation. chances are still pretty high that it will go into remission.

 

[mheslep]

While observing all these events I'm fascinated to recall the amazingly personal incident that ignited it all some six weeks ago in Tunisia.

On December 17, 2010, Mohamed Bouazizi, a university graduate whose fruits-and-vegetables market stand was confiscated by police because it had no permit, tried to yank back his apples. He was slapped in the face by a female municipal inspector and eventually beaten by her colleagues. His later appeals were ignored. Humiliated, he drenched himself in paint thinner and set himself on fire. He died on January 4.

On the morning of Dec. 17, when other vendors say Ms. Hamdy tried to confiscate Mr. Bouazizi’s fruit, and then slapped him in the face for trying to yank back his apples, he became the hero — now the martyred hero — and she became the villain in a remarkable swirl of events in which Tunisians have risen up to topple a 23-year dictatorship and march on, demanding radical change in their government.
...
In a series of interviews, the other fruit vendors, officials and family members described the seemingly routine confrontation that had set off a revolution. They said that Mr. Bouazizi, embarrassed and angry, had wrestled with Ms. Hamdy and was beaten by two of her colleagues, who also took his electronic scale. He walked a few blocks to the municipal building, demanded his property, and was beaten again, they said. Then he walked to the governor’s office, demanded an audience and was refused.

That is, Bouazizi wasn't some religious or political activist martyred by some government death squad. They guy just wanted to go about his business, selling his apples in the market with some dignity.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/wehner/388528
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/22/world/africa/22sidi.html?_r=1

 

[Nicodemus]

While observing all these events I find it amazing to recall the incident that ignited it all some six weeks ago in Tunisia.






That is, Bouazizi wasn't some religious or political activist martyred by some government death squad. They guy just wanted to go about his business, selling his apples in the market with some dignity.

http://www.commentarymagazine.com/blogs/wehner/388528
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/01/22/world/africa/22sidi.html?_r=1

Never corner a man, even in his own mind, unless you want to see what they're really capable of. That said, while he was very much the spark, there has been talk of revolution in Egypt for the last few years, just muted. For instance, a year ago the Egyptian American (association?) Something went to Egypt to tell Mubarak that a revolution was coming, and he'd better change. Apparantly one analyst predicted this kind of secular revolt coming as well, but these views were neither wanted or believed.

In busily trying to impose our own views of what's right on others, we've maintained a stolid deafness to their actual demands and desires. How are we spreading democracy, AND arming dictators at the same time, I mean, look at the fantastic job we did in Central America. :p

 

[mheslep]

Never corner a man, even in his own mind, unless you want to see what they're really capable of. That said, while he was very much the spark, there has been talk of revolution in Egypt for the last few years, just muted. For instance, a year ago the Egyptian American (association?) Something went to Egypt to tell Mubarak that a revolution was coming, and he'd better change. Apparantly one analyst predicted this kind of secular revolt coming as well, but these views were neither wanted or believed.

Last few years? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_El_Sadat"

In busily trying to impose our own views of what's right on others, we've maintained a stolid deafness to their actual demands and desires. How are we spreading democracy, AND arming dictators at the same time, I mean, look at the fantastic job we did in Central America. :p

Half a century ago? The record is more mixed than you suggest. A little more recently, the US did a very good job in aiding the exit of authoritarians in Chile, S. Korea, and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Marcos#Downfall", all without blood shed on the order of a civil war or large insurrection.

 

[Nicodemus]

Last few years? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anwar_El_Sadat"

Half a century ago? The record is more mixed than you suggest. A little more recently, the US did a very good job in aiding the exit of authoritarians in Chile, S. Korea, and the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ferdinand_Marcos#Downfall", all without blood shed on the order of a civil war or large insurrection.

I wasn't arguing for the stability of the region, or Egypt, just pointing out that this specific kind of outrage over economic and social issues was boiling over. I'm fairly sure that you could look at history as a series of connected threads, and repeated events; that doesn't argue against this particular one being for seen by some.

Yes, we did do a good job, and we've always been very good at keeping our dictators in the mood to disappear rather than openly slaughter their people. Why, look at the actions of the security services in Egypt once the cameras stopped paying such close attention, and people left the public eye. I'd add, gently removing an aging dictator after they've looted their country (and thereby ours in some cases) and treated their people horridly isn't something to be proud of. All I'm seeing is that you prefer your suffering drawn out and less visible, rather than taking place explosively and more obviously. Maybe I'm missing your point, in which case I'm listening.

If you want to really go on a rundown of the legacy of US blowback, that seems like it would take a whole thread, but I'm game. In all fairness, I will be leading with the Afghani Mujahideen, fyi.