What is a Force? Explained and Examples

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the nature of forces, exploring whether they are real entities or merely abstract concepts. Participants engage with various philosophical perspectives on forces, including their implications in physics and the distinction between real and fictitious forces. The conversation touches on theoretical interpretations, particularly in the context of General Relativity and Mach's principle, as well as the implications for experimental physics.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory
  • Philosophical

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that forces may be viewed as fictional ideas, questioning their existence beyond abstract concepts.
  • Others argue that forces are necessary for understanding physical interactions, citing examples like a cannon firing a shell.
  • A participant references Mach's philosophy, indicating that without material benchmarks, the concept of force may not hold meaning.
  • There is a discussion on the distinction between fictitious forces and interaction forces, with some asserting that both fall under the broader concept of forces.
  • Some participants express skepticism about the idea that forces are merely abstract, arguing that this perspective undermines the practical results of experimental physics.
  • Others emphasize the importance of distinguishing between observable phenomena and the mathematical models used to describe them, suggesting that this distinction does not render forces fictitious.
  • There is a contention over the interpretation of "realness" in the context of forces, with some asserting that forces must be considered real to avoid reducing physics to philosophy.
  • Participants discuss the implications of viewing forces as ideas, with some arguing that this perspective does not diminish their utility in making reliable predictions in physics.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the nature of forces, with no consensus reached. Some agree that forces can be seen as abstract concepts, while others maintain that they have a real existence in physical interactions. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the philosophical implications of these perspectives.

Contextual Notes

The conversation includes references to specific philosophical theories and interpretations, such as Mach's principle and the implications of General Relativity, which may not be universally accepted or fully resolved within the discussion.

eranb2
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Hi

I read that some people see forces as only a fictional idea, they do not exist.

I don't get it, If I move the table, then the table moves because I moved it (extracted force) on it, no ?


Every animal is a force , it can makes changes, move things.


please explain.

Thanks
 
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I don't know where you saw that "some people see forces as only a fictional idea". I've never heard of such a thing, at least not about all forces. It is true that General Relativity treats gravity as a "warp" in space rather than a force.

And, of course, "centrifugal force" is a "ficticious" force.
 
And the word "force" doesn't appear in that article.
 
it is his idea ...

others too, they see everything like mass force as fictional ideas only.
 
You still haven't provided a single example of what you are talking about.
 
You can read about Mach's incomplete theory in Brian Greene's FABRIC OF THE COSMOS including pages 23-38 summarized very briefly here: (This relates in a general way to Newton's spinning bucket of water example.)
"Without other material...without any benchmarks for comparsion...Mach claimed there would be no way to experience acceleration...Mach's suggestion was not a complete theory since he never specified how the matter content of the universe would exert the proposed influence..."

Mach believed a spinning bucket of water in an empty universe would be flat on top...or that with two spinning rocks tied with a rope, the rope would be slack...spinning and not spinning are the same...no forces present...

Greene's next chapter explains how these issues were resolved: Einsteins theory of relativity.

More generally, what is "real" and what is "fictional" depends on one's interpretations and perspectives..."reality" is NOT obvious...and has been discussed on these forums in many guises...For example, If you free fall into a black hole the horizon is not observed (it's "fictional") yet if you remain stationary at such an horizon you will be burned alive by radiation...

And you may think for example that metals are solid and hard yet they are 99.99% empty space! (I likely left out a lot more "9's")

For yet another view of force, read the now locked thread on degeneracy pressure...
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=364464
What "kind" of a force is it that keeps,say, a neutron star from collapsing??
 
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I don't think even Mach would have argued that when, say, a cannon fires a shell, that there is no force on the shell - or on what is impacted. But in any event, eranb2 clearly has some idea in mind - he or she needs to express it before we can discuss it.
 
eranb2 said:
I read that some people see forces as only a fictional idea, they do not exist.
Yes, all forces are just an idea. The same is true for all physical quantities. They exist in the same sense, as numbers: as an abstract concept in our brains.

Don't confuse this with fictitious forces vs. interaction forces debate. That is just a finer classification within the abstract concept of forces.
 
  • #10
A.T. said:
Yes, all forces are just an idea. The same is true for all physical quantities. They exist in the same sense, as numbers: as an abstract concept in our brains.

I don't get that standpoint. If that is true how can experimental physics yield any results?

Henrik
 
  • #11
I read that a force is =ma, but that if you substitute ma for each force it leads to computational or other difficulties.
 
  • #12
A.T. said:
Yes, all forces are just an idea. The same is true for all physical quantities. They exist in the same sense, as numbers: as an abstract concept in our brains.
Hernik said:
I don't get that standpoint. If that is true how can experimental physics yield any results?
In math you count apples: The apples are real, but the number that quantifies their amount is just an abstract idea.

In physics you describe the fall of an apple: The movement of the apple is real, but the numbers quantifying it (velocity, acceleration, force) are just abstract ideas.
 
  • #13
Maybe because in Lagrangian and Hamiltonian formulations the concept of a force isn't really necessary. You would still need the potential though.

And to whome - you need to invoke a known force to get anything out of F = ma. ie for a mass on a spring (Hooke's law) F =-kx, so -kx = ma is the equation of interest.
 
  • #14
A.T. said:
In physics you describe the fall of an apple: The movement of the apple is real, but the numbers quantifying it (velocity, acceleration, force) are just abstract ideas.

Yes. The concept of "force" is just that. Just a word - or a number if you please. And so is the concept of an "rollercoaster". Still you can ride it. And have fun doing it.
 
  • #15
Hernik said:
Yes. The concept of "force" is just that. Just a word - or a number if you please. And so is the concept of an "rollercoaster". Still you can ride it. And have fun doing it.

1) You don't ride the "concept of an rollercoaster", but a particular object which fits that general concept.

2) For me, numbers and physical quantities are a different level of abstraction than general terms for a group of similar objects (like "rollercoaster" or "fruit").
 
  • #16
A.T. said:
Yes, all forces are just an idea. The same is true for all physical quantities. They exist in the same sense, as numbers: as an abstract concept in our brains.

Don't confuse this with fictitious forces vs. interaction forces debate. That is just a finer classification within the abstract concept of forces.

I think you are misusing the word "abstract". Just because the word "apple" isn't an actual apple that does not mean the word is abstract. Abstract doesn't refer to the representation (otherwise anything described with words would be abstract), it refers to CONCEPTS which are, themselves, not well defined.
 
  • #17
...in any case the OP was clearly not asking a question about linguistic philosophy, but a question about physics. The apple is physically real as is the force when it hits you on the head.
 
  • #18
russ_watters said:
The apple is physically real as is the force when it hits you on the head.
Well, I prefer to distinguish between what we can observe and what we made up to quantify the observation. I don't think that confusing reality with the mathematical models that we use to describe it is helpful.
 
  • #19
A.T. said:
Well, I prefer to distinguish between what we can observe and what we made up to quantify the observation. I don't think that confusing reality with the mathematical models that we use to describe it is helpful.

I agree. It is important to make that distinction.

But in a discussion on whether forces are fictious or not I find it equally important to underline the fact, that this distinction doesn't make the forces fictious.

I do recognize that we have no good explanation of why there are forces and what they actually are. But whatever they are they are certainly real. Otherwise the whole of physics is reduced to a mere philosophy imo.
 
  • #20
Hernik said:
But whatever they are they are certainly real. Otherwise the whole of physics is reduced to a mere philosophy imo.
Actually making statements like "they are certainly real" is mere philosophy. There is no physical quantity called "realness".

And no, physics is not reduced to mere philosophy because forces are an idea. Just like math is not reduced to mere philosophy because numbers are an idea. Physics and math make reliable quantitative predictions using these ideas, while philosophy debates what is 'real'. I'm trying to avoid that philosophical discussion about "realness", and just separate "observation" and "mathematical models".
 
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  • #21
A.T. said:
And no, physics is not reduced to mere philosophy because forces are an idea.

I agree on that. Physics is only reduced to philosophy if forces are considered ONLY an idea.

A.T. said:
I'm trying to avoid that philosophical discussion about "realness", and just separate "observation" and "mathematical models".

For a physicist that's imperative, I guess. I work in commununication. I think it is important to stress that physics deal with the phenomenons of nature. And that the reason forces are part of physics is that forces are part of our everyday experiences. They are a part of nature...whether that is "reality" in a philosophical sense or not.

Henrik
 
  • #22
Hernik said:
Physics is only reduced to philosophy if forces are considered ONLY an idea.
I guess you mean, that force is not some random idea without connection to reality. Of course not. It is a very useful empirically derived idea that describes real world phenomena and allows to make predictions.
 
  • #23
Another question for you:

"Where is" the United States of America?
"Where is" the MIT university?

-------------

How can you answer such a question any way?
I mean, If you say that the United States is in north America, then I will tell you that
What you see is only land and buildings and doctors.

MIT is not the buildings you see but it's in our thought, we made it, we all made it.
We all believe it is real, so, it is real - because we all believe it is.

But MIT is not real , Its is a "common idea" only.
we all believe in this idea, so, it is real.MIT really exists in our brains !
What you see when you go to Massachusetts Institute of Technology is the buildings not "Massachusetts Institute of Technology" .You can't even see "Massachusetts Institute of Technology".
You can see the buildings and classes and the doctors.so, maybe a force is also just an idea, I don't know what is it.

What you see is just the movement, not the force.
You see the changes in environment, not the forces.

We can't see forces but only the changes or the actions.
-------------------

Most of what is real is not really real but is in our heads only.
We make reality real!------------

but, there is a limit to it, what is the limit between real and not real?
Who puts this limit?
Is there a limit?
What do you think?
 
  • #24
A.T. said:
I guess you mean, that force is not some random idea without connection to reality. Of course not. It is a very useful empirically derived idea that describes real world phenomena and allows to make predictions.

Yes.
 
  • #25
eranb2 said:
what is the limit between real and not real?
Who puts this limit?
Is there a limit?



What do you think?

I don't know if that question was to me. But here is my shot at it :-)

If you want to know if something is real try to measure it. If something is measurable it's something real.

But I agree there are lots of things we cannot know whether are real or not - even though they seem real to our senses. I think this dilemma aplies to every phenomenon which we try to comprehend. My guess is that it is due to the way our heads work. The brain tries to file things into categories. It uses representations (MIT) , built on generalisations (a university) and associations to memories and feelings in this process. It's a very quick way to get hold of whether something dangerous or interesting is going on in the surroundings. But it does not lead to a high degree of precission. Especially because the mind is limited by it's own structures. There are things it is not build to comprehend. Like forces.

We might not be able to grasp what electromagnetism is. But we can measure it, so it is out there.
 
  • #26
at a fundamental level, all forces are either a push or a pull.

gravity - pull
electromagnetism - push or pull
entropy - push

sound, light, chemical reactions, radiation etc are all derived from these principles.

delving further, one can say, where there is matter there is gravity, where there is charge there is matter, however, mass can exist without charge but not vice-versa.
 
  • #27
A.T. said:
In math you count apples: The apples are real, but the number that quantifies their amount is just an abstract idea..
Beautiful way to think about the idea from this point of view.
The professor Stephan Hawking in his book"A brief history of time" said that the effect of a force is always to change the speed of a body.
 

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