What is Nothing vs Absolutely Nothing?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concepts of "nothing" and "absolutely nothing," exploring their definitions and implications in both philosophical and scientific contexts. Participants examine the distinctions between these terms, the nature of existence, and the relationship between matter and the absence of matter.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Experimental/applied

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that "nothing" is simply the absence of anything, equating it to the empty set, while others suggest that "absolutely nothing" may imply a deeper absence that is not merely the absence of existence.
  • A participant proposes that the distinction between "nothing" and "absolutely nothing" might be negligible, suggesting that both terms ultimately refer to a lack of existence.
  • Another viewpoint posits that even the absence of everything is not necessarily "absolutely" nothing, introducing the idea that "prior to anything" differs from "in relationship to anything."
  • Some participants contend that "no-thing" exists because it contains "implication," while "absolutely nothing" is described as a different concept altogether.
  • There are discussions about the implications of nothingness in relation to physics, including the nature of the vacuum state and the concept of zero, with references to ongoing debates among physicists and mathematicians.
  • One participant reflects on the idea that empty space is still something, questioning whether nothing can truly exist without the concept of space.
  • Another participant suggests that both everything and nothing are two sides of the same coin, indicating a philosophical perspective on existence and non-existence.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express a range of views on the definitions and implications of "nothing" and "absolutely nothing," with no clear consensus reached. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing perspectives presented.

Contextual Notes

Some arguments rely on specific philosophical interpretations and definitions of terms, which may not be universally accepted. The discussion also touches on complex scientific concepts that are not fully resolved, such as the nature of the vacuum state and the implications of the Big Bang.

Who May Find This Useful

This discussion may be of interest to those exploring philosophical questions about existence, as well as individuals engaged in theoretical physics or cosmology, particularly regarding the nature of nothingness and its implications in scientific theories.

  • #241
Even the Dalai Lama practises logic ( more said here later and resource link supplied then), and we have to wonder about attachments?

What do we own, and the philosophical discussion has gone and taken a turn here? :smile:

Oh I am not a Buddhist, I just accept the logic:)

But sure if we want to extend this logic into generalize concepts, then you have to remember the basis from which we are speaking?

When is a Pipe a Pipe?

http://wc0.worldcrossing.com/WebX?14@253.cqKeb8LaY4i.0@.1dde6c2f/19

"Nothing" is substantial if it remains in nothing? You killed it before it even started. What Lies beneath?
 
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  • #242
Dayle...Well said.

The substance of your comment is substantial.
 
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  • #243
Logic is slightly more fundamental than math or physics... if I'm not mistaken.

And... there's more to semantics than might meet the eye.
 
  • #244
Is Math natural or created?

From what pool do we draw such ideas, that such ideas could exist? This statement has to be philospohically defined. If not in logic then where?
 
  • #245
Will existence allow us to define itself?

And if so... do we have to be outside of existence in order to do it?

And if so... how do we do that?
 
  • #246
erck said:
Will existence allow us to define itself?
Can you define you, not the physical part but your mind defining thought? Could this be considered art? Listen to some music, it's a creation all its own, both logical and random. Or even drawings, no 2 paintings are ever alike, and yet can have the same idea behind it. Is this the very essence of a potential single point or ideal everything and nothing consumes (both truth and false)?
sol2 said:
Is Math natural or created?
Tell me what in the universe is not natural and let it be a comparision of void.
sol2 said:
You are forced to deal with "something," once the logic is accepted, and is not tainted with lack of respect for philosophical discussion? Dislike all you like, but the logic cannot be ignored:)
I agree completely with this sol2. So nothing must also be logical, and logical must also be nothing. And what are they then?
 
  • #247
" N O T H I N G "! for me is the collapsing the fundamental block of the universe- the proton. In which this is the core of every hydrogen atom, which runs out in about 10^32 years. With about that halflife, protons( and all the complicated nuclie containing protons) will "decay", releasing much energy as they are transformed into lighter particles. And so if all protons will gone the UNIVERSE will be empty of all complex matter, there will be no galaxies, no stars, no planets, no organisms, no atoms, no nuclie...the end of everything " that is nothing"!
 
  • #248
The end of everything is what i meant for "nothing"

" N O T H I N G "! for me is the collapsing the fundamental block of the universe- the proton. In which this is the core of every hydrogen atom, which runs out in about 10^32 years. With about that halflife, protons( and all the complicated nuclie containing protons) will "decay", releasing much energy as they are transformed into lighter particles. And so if all protons will gone the UNIVERSE will be empty of all complex matter, there will be no galaxies, no stars, no planets, no organisms, no atoms, no nuclie...the end of everything " that is nothing"!
 
  • #249
Messiah said:
Logic (and discussion) require definition. There are 2 connotations of nothing

1) that which does not exist (no definition)
2) the value Ø (defined)
Isn't that what I said? 2 is non zero right?
 
  • #250
i agree with you young. I also believe one day all matter will decay into discreet particles, and the universe will cease to exist.
 
  • #251
Yea, I do to, and it’s funny. That’s the projection I have with this idea of a divisional continuum, I did some more testing and a similar program to take random paths down the reciprocals, and all end, eventually. So the infinitum of math in this form isn’t infinite but so close and complex it could be seen as it, it could be just like this universe maybe. Hell how many theories really define a something out of nothing idea, as so far I’ve seen none, and as of so far blah, blah, blah. It’s right; I’ll finish the program completely one day and prove it. But as of right now I'm to sick to even comprehend it. So I’ll just go and lay on the couch.
 
  • #252
young e. said:
...the end of everything " that is nothing"!
A complete lack of everything, might look like the end... but does it look like the beginning?
 
  • #253
Nothing (we assume) to be the lack of something. For there is no other word to describe it. It is a concept not an entity. It's man-made and therefore it has no cosmic relevance. It's much bigger than us because it also means the lack of something or somebody to question it.
 
  • #254
How big and how powerful are our imaginations?
 
  • #255
No borders

felipefas said:
Nothing (we assume) to be the lack of something. For there is no other word to describe it. It is a concept not an entity. It's man-made and therefore it has no cosmic relevance. It's much bigger than us because it also means the lack of something or somebody to question it.

What i mean is that the end of everything which is " N O T H I N G " has no borders, it may cosmic, biological and whatsoever under the universe. The end of all things that is the real meaning of nothing...
 
  • #256
Erck said:
A complete lack of everything, might look like the end... but does it look like the beginning?[/QUOTE=Erck]

Yupz... Because in biblical thoughts God created UNIVERSE out of nothing for HE is the source of Unmeasurable Dynamic Energy which causes the creation of the UNIVERSE and whether HE created this Universe by means of BIG BANG or whatsoever method- we don't know...and since the he created the Universe it means it includes the proton which is the core of Hydrogen atoms which is one of the essential of life and other complex nuclie...and since it has a limited halflife of about 10^32 years then this would also back to nothing. In summary from nothing to nothing...What i am trying to imply is the real essence and complete thoughts of nothing is this...
 
  • #257
I understand what you'e saying... but at least two questions go unanswered with the logic.

One of course, is where did god come from?

The other, is that if the universe came from nothing and will someday return to nothing, what does that say about "eternal life?"

Is "god's house" outside the universe?

In addition, did god create something from nothing, inside of itself or outside of itself?
 
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  • #258
3 points that will forever, I guess, go unanswered (according to whatever, to me it’s simple). Is nothing, nothing if something exists? Is something chaos if nothing exists (a comparison)? And is their an essence behind logic (we think for our selves and we are logical processes, so why not, and why so)?

How about this, at what point is friction taken out of the explanation of the universe. For as soon as friction becomes frictionless you are dealing with math, even if that means it cannot break the speed of light. Or even if it does, a transfer of kinetic and potential energy is always instantaneous even if something (say falls) at a slow rate, the change is instant transferring, slowly. Or is it? And if it is, what would cause friction to exist in a model universe, one cycle of something against or flowing with another cycle of something, and by cycle I mean a ratio if instant energy transfer, compared to another instant of energy transfer layered on top or within? what?
 
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  • #259
If the energy value of the universe is zero... then ultimately there is no real friction.

There are so many illusions to see through...
 
  • #260
John said:
...so the way to make the thing larger and more complex was to break it up. Breaking it up makes it expand into nothing.

"expand into nothing". We are not sure that if a certian matter would expand and break up it would result to nothing. But one thing for sure if the core of every complex nuclie composing a certain matter would decay, it would result to nothing...Another is we could not break up protons which is the core of almost complex nuclie in the universe. But it has a limited span of life (halflife) that if that time would come all composite things decay and it will result to nothing...
 
  • #261
Erck said:
1.One of course, is where did god come from?

2.The other, is that if the universe came from nothing and will someday return to nothing, what does that say about "eternal life?"

1." We can't pathom HIS wisdom and so HE'S will be done..."

2. Eternal life would just come after the end of everything. Just read the whole book of REVELATION. There says"...and i see the new heaven and new Earth and the new Jerusalem for all thing from the past are already gone..."

What i mean here is that all things in the universe now is composite and subject for decay and it has an end. We humans being are mortals hence still we are composite and still subjected aforesaid. While GOD HE is immortal and we couldn't pathom he wisdom nor ask where he came from so HES will be done...
 
  • #262
So your answer to "where did it come from" is "Don't ask don't tell?"
 
  • #263
Erck said:
How big and how powerful are our imaginations?

It will be big and powerful when we can imagine in three dimensions.
 
  • #264
I can even imagine women in three dimensions... am I missing something here?
 
  • #265
Erck said:
I can even imagine women in three dimensions... am I missing something here?
I even saw them 10 minutes ago. Big and powerful. The three dimensions were impressive! :biggrin:
 
  • #266
Now... back to our regularly scheduled programming.
 
  • #267
Hey I had another idea, now a real "M theory" wouldn't exclude anything. Which is to say, how are we ever going to find the answer to something if we cannot understand nothing? Why would mathematics be any different from an all inclusive theory? We have 4 fundamental mathematical processes, subtraction, addition, multiplication, and division. Say if the original big bang occurred, mathematical processes wouldn’t be excluded in any way, now which one has the best chances of producing a multi-verse? Cause that’s were it starts, at the very fundamentals, just were any real 'M theory' should start. Yea, it might be hard to understand gravity, atoms, and everything else under a M theory, but the way science is looking for it, is looking for a near infinitum that can not be explained except by the most natural of means. With so many other ways to find the proof of this, with the limits of something .0(infinite 0's) 1 = infinitely close to 0 and .9(infinite 9's) = infinitely close to 1. Now this is the range from which our universe must take place, for if our universe were 0, 1 couldn’t exist and if our universe is 1 then 0 couldn’t exist, and we are so obviously a hybrid of all things. Now if you look at subtraction, it could = 0 for it is less something. Addition could = 1 for it can sum the .0(infinite 0's) 1 + .9(infinite 9's) = 1 or should, it becomes again, infinitely close to 1 while being separate entities. Multiplication could = 2 for it is a duality of multiple additions. Division could = 3 for it is the sum of all 3 concepts, -, +,*. Now think of it as a base 3 number system (I use base 3 for it is the first of the bases to use the symbiant 10 both 0 and 1 simultaneously), and ask yourself what then would be 10? And I figured it would be duality of multiple divisions, and were It should start for it is the only place were their actually is enough freedom to create a universe, and still mean both 0 and 1 and the whole range in between.
 
  • #268
why exclude the simple solution?

Whew, just finished reading 18 pages of posts! :bugeye:
Two fundamental questions are posed: 1) how did we come into existence, 2) was there anything before "that"? A third question: are our thoughts based on reality?
The first two can be answered with either God or ether. God, a universally accepted religious theory, existed all the time and there is no such state as “no-God”. It follows that it made everything from the cosmos to life since we came from the cosmos. And we certainly did since we are composed of the same primary elements, and mankind has always had an affinity and urge to return to it.
Ether has the same fundamental qualities as God but is more provable. What are the similar qualities? Both are omnipresent, always existed and the source of all energy/matter. Wouldn’t it be great, if ether really existed as all the great scientist of the last few centuries believed? But what about Michelson-Morley?
M-M were disproved by their student Dayton Miller, who studied the ether a few decades longer than M-M and found a shifting in the interferometer, proving its existence. Aside from his proof, Wilhem Reich, working independently, discovered “orgone”, which is just ether with subjective/objective qualities that can be verified. In a logical manner, evidence “poured out” by itself, and Reich was able to see the formation of sub-DNA life under the microscope, solve the riddle of the formation of hurricanes and galaxies (and thus all cosmos), and to show that what we sense (if we are so “tuned”) has an objective reality.
So matter.., does really evolve out of “energy” every second of time, just as matter disintegrates also. I’m sorry though, I don’t believe in a fatalistic entropy, since living matter is proof of its and gravity’s opposite.
Which brings us to the main point of the “Big-Bang”: it’s not real but wishful thinking. When did anybody see matter or life develop out of a powerful explosion? Quiet the opposite, destruction occurs. Let’s use logic here and not mysticism, because it seems the B-B is just that. Wouldn’t it make more sense, that matter forms out of fusing together as in molecules and the sexual embrace? Any one in love has known the feeling of pulling and merging that precedes sex. And if we are from the cosmos, the same would apply to the heavens. After all, aren’t we looking for a “universal theory”?
More can be found on Reich at:
 
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  • #269
Out of a lot of questionable assertions, I'll respond to this:
M-M were disproved by their student Dayton Miller, who studied the ether a few decades longer than M-M and found a shifting in the interferometer, proving its existence.

Miller's results have been debunked. They are found to have a systematic error in them, apparently caused by winds shaking the mountaintop lab where he did his measurements. His reasoning was that ether clings to matter and so to get a good experiment the equipment had to be surrounded by as little matter as posible. So he built his lab high and light. Unfortunately that exposed him to the elements, which gave him false results.
 
  • #270
Ah ha, proof again, logic is "god" or existence, not the human reasoning behind them or it.
 
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