I What is the Effect of Gravity on Einstein's Train in Special Relativity?

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  • #51
pervect said:
I've been away a bit, and missed this thread,but I've written about some very similar issues in the past, and posted some relevant references. The specific paper of interest is http://arxiv.org/abs/0708.2490v1
Welcome to the thread mister :bow:
I need to quit early today, so I went through the thread but didn't have time to read the paper yet.
Just 3 quick questions:
1) Are you saying that a ball on the floor will actually roll forward?
2) What does the parabolic shape mean? If I put a heavy weight in the back of the train, will it accelerate the train? o0)
Or is it that if the passengers use rulers to measure
2a) the distance from the center of the floor to the top corners of the car,
2b) the distance from the center of the ceiling to the bottom corners of the car,
they will be different? Note that we can't use radar distance, since the time dilation at the floor is significantly higher than at the ceiling.
3) Is the asymmetry between forward and backward direction described by the Thomas precession? Does the paper explain why the backward ray hits the wall at almost unchanged height, in the presence of the parabolic deformation of the train?

I'll read through the paper during the weekend, thanks.
 
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  • #52
SlowThinker said:
Welcome to the thread mister :bow:
I need to quit early today, so I went through the thread but didn't have time to read the paper yet.
Just 3 quick questions:
1) Are you saying that a ball on the floor will actually roll forward?
2) What does the parabolic shape mean? If I put a heavy weight in the back of the train, will it accelerate the train? o0)
I believe the answer to both questions is no, though it's based on my own calculations rather than the paper I cited. My results indicate that the parabolic surface is an equipotential surface. So a ball or a block anywhere on the surface has the same potential, so there is no tendency for it to slide one way or the other. You can think of the equipotential surface as having some terms due to the gravity, and other terms due to the rotation. For an easy to understand similar problem, imagine using potential methods to work out the curved shape of the surface of the water in a rotating bucket.

Or is it that if the passengers use rulers to measure
2a) the distance from the center of the floor to the top corners of the car,
2b) the distance from the center of the ceiling to the bottom corners of the car,
they will be different? Note that we can't use radar distance, since the time dilation at the floor is significantly higher than at the ceiling.

I haven't worked out what passengers would measure with a ruler. I do believe I have a metric which would reasonably represent "a point of view" of an observer on the train which could answer this question. The metric, written in coordinates (T,X,Y,Z) can be transformed by a coordinate change to flat space-time, it remains only to confirm that (X=Y=Z=constant) represents "sliding block motion". This was worked out in https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/the-notion-of-weight-in-relativity.701257/page-2#post-4466113, but it hasn't (as far as I know) been checked by anyone else to confirm it's accuracy. I suspect it's not terribly easy to follow the way I wrote it :(.

Letting

##g_{aa}=−1−(1+K^2)((1+Zg)^2−(gKX)^2−1)##

and

##g_{bb}=2K\sqrt{1+K^2}##

where K is some constant and a function of the velocity v of the sliding block.

The metric I feel that should describing the "point of view" of an observer on the sliding block in coordinates (T,X,Y,Z) would be

##d\tau^2 = g_{aa}dT^2+g_{bb}(XdZ−ZdX)dT+dX^2+dY^2+dZ^2##

Breaking thus up, we have a time dilation term ##g_{aa}##, some terms that represent the rotation ##g_{bb}##, and a flat spatial metric in X,Y,Z.

3) Is the asymmetry between forward and backward direction described by the Thomas precession? Does the paper explain why the backward ray hits the wall at almost unchanged height, in the presence of the parabolic deformation of the train?

I believe it should, the train rotates a bit while the light travels, raising one end and lowering the other. But I haven't thought it through in any great detail.
 
  • #53
PeterDonis said:
Thanks, pervect, I knew we had had a previous thread on this topic but I couldn't find it. Now I just have to read through it again to remember what was said. :wink:

Some of the posts/ threads were
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/supplees-submarine-paradox.646874/#post-4133710
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/the-notion-of-weight-in-relativity.701257/#post-4444415
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/the-notion-of-weight-in-relativity.701257/#post-4445483
https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/the-notion-of-weight-in-relativity.701257/page-2#post-4466113

But the "more on the sliding block thread" actually references a paper, rather than my own personal work, so it's probably cleaner.
 
  • #54
I am still digesting the previous threads and papers, but one item deserves some comment now. Let's describe the 4-velocity and 4-acceleration of a point on the train (the bottom of the train, to be precise) in the MCRF of the rocket at some instant of time. We will use ##(T, X, Y)## as the coordinates in this MCRF, and we have, by hypothesis, that the train moves with velocity ##v## in the ##Y## direction, while the rocket is accelerating with proper acceleration ##g## in the ##X## direction. Therefore, a point on the train, in this MCRF, will have 4-velocity ##u = (\gamma, 0, \gamma v)##, where ##\gamma = 1 / \sqrt{1 - v^2}##, and 4-acceleration ##a = (0, g, 0)##.

If we now transform into the MCRF of the train at the same instant, all we are doing is boosting by ##v## in the ##Y## direction. This boost does not affect components of 4-vectors in the ##X## direction at all, so in the train (primed) frame, we will have ##u' = (1, 0, 0)## and ##a' = (0, g, 0)##.

The reason I bring this up is that the above seems to indicate that the proper acceleration felt by an object at rest with respect to the train, which is the magnitude of ##a## or ##a'## (they must be the same since magnitudes of 4-vectors are invariants), is ##g##, the same as the proper acceleration felt by an object at rest with respect to the rocket. (I've used this conclusion in previous posts in this thread.) This seems to contradict what has been said in previous threads, that the proper acceleration felt by an object at rest with respect to the train should be ##\gamma g##, i.e., a factor of ##\gamma## (or perhaps more than one such factor) larger than that felt by an object at rest with respect to the rocket. I'm not sure right now how to resolve this apparent contradiction.
 
  • #55
PeterDonis said:
a point on the train, in this MCRF, will have 4-velocity ##u = (\gamma, 0, \gamma v)##, where ##\gamma = 1 / \sqrt{1 - v^2}##, and 4-acceleration ##a = (0, g, 0)##.

so in the train (primed) frame, we will have ##u' = (1, 0, 0)## and ##a' = (0, g, 0)##.

he magnitude of ##a## or ##a'## (they must be the same since magnitudes of 4-vectors are invariants)
My guess would be that ##a'=(\gamma v g, \gamma g, 0)##. But it's really just a guess.

What puzzles me is that people in the Sliding block thread agreed that the train is curved. You can't really boost a flat train from the rocket frame, to a curved train in the train's frame, can you?
So, either the train is curved, and pretty much all math up to this point would be invalid, since the boosting could not be used.
Or, the train has to be flat.
 
  • #56
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure right now how to resolve this apparent contradiction.

Still not sure, but here's some more math to pile on: :wink: [Edit: corrected some formulas to include extra factor of ##\gamma##.]

In the MCRF of the rocket, the 4-velocity of the train is ##u = (\gamma, 0,\gamma v)##, per my previous post. If we then boost this in the ##X## direction, to give an ##X## velocity ##v_0## (so that we're now looking at things in an inertial frame in which the rocket is, at some instant, moving at ##v_0## in the ##X## direction), the 4-velocity of the train becomes ##U = (\gamma_0 \gamma, \gamma_0 v_0 \gamma, \gamma v)##, where ##\gamma_0 = 1 / \sqrt{1 - v_0^2}##.

The proper acceleration ##A## in this fixed inertial frame can be found by taking the derivative of ##U## with respect to ##\tau## along the worldline of the train (more precisely, of some particular point on the train, which is what all these things refer to). We can simplify the process of taking these derivatives by computing them for ##\gamma_0##, and ##\gamma_0 v_0## in advance. We use the fact that ##\gamma_0 = \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right)## and ##\gamma_0 v_0 = \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right)## to further simplify things (note the extra factor of ##\gamma##, because ##\tau## for the train is time dilated by ##\gamma## relative to ##\tau_0## for the rocket), and obtain:

$$
\frac{d \gamma_0}{d \tau} = g \gamma \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) = g \gamma \gamma_0 v_0
$$

$$
\frac{d \gamma_0 v_0}{d \tau} = g \gamma \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) = g \gamma \gamma_0
$$

Finally, we note that ##\gamma v##, the ##Y## component of ##U##, is constant; it does not change. What changes is the ordinary velocity ##v_Y## of the train in the ##Y## direction in the fixed inertial frame we are now working in; this is given by ##v_Y = U_Y / U_T = \gamma v / \gamma_0 \gamma = v / \gamma_0##.

Putting all of the above together, we have

$$
A = \frac{d}{d \tau} \left( \gamma_0 \gamma, \gamma_0 v_0 \gamma, \gamma v \right) = \left( g \gamma_0 v_0 \gamma^2, g \gamma_0 \gamma^2, 0 \right) = g \gamma^2 \left( \gamma_0 v_0, \gamma_0, 0 \right)
$$

If we boost this back to the MCRF of the rocket, we end up with ##a = g \gamma^2 \left( 0, 1, 0 \right)##, which obviously has magnitude ##g \gamma^2##, not ##g##. (We could also compute this magnitude, more laboriously, from the equation for ##A## above in the fixed inertial frame.) So now the question is, why is the proper acceleration of the train, in the rocket's MCRF, ##(0, g \gamma^2, 0)## instead of ##(0, g, 0)##, as I had thought it was before?
 
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  • #57
SlowThinker said:
My guess would be that ##a'=(\gamma v g, \gamma g, 0)##. But it's really just a guess.

Close, but not quite. The proper acceleration has to be orthogonal to the 4-velocity, so since the 4-velocity of the train has a component in the ##T'## direction, the proper acceleration can't have a component in that direction. The question is, as my previous post says, why the ##X'## component of the proper acceleration in the train's MCRF is ##\gamma^2 g## [edit: corrected to add extra factor of ##\gamma##] instead of ##g##. The standard heuristic answer is "time dilation", but I'm still trying to see where exactly that appears in the math.
 
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  • #58
I'm wrestling with some maths about this at present, but since I have nothing that I dare expose on that front at present, I thought I'd contribute the following non-mathematical perspective that helps me think about why the train seems to be tilted, in its frame.

Imagine the rocket is initially inertial, with the train traveling inertially in the Y direction at speed v. Then the rocket starts to accelerate in the X direction with constant acceleration g.

In the rocket's MCRF, the acceleration commences at the same time at all points on the rocket floor.
But in the train's frame, acceleration commences earlier towards the front than the back.
I imagine this, from the train's viewpoint, as a set of rocket engines attached to the base of the rocket, aligned along the Y axis. From the train's point of view, the frontmost burner lights up first, followed by the next, and so on towards the back. So the front end of the train starts accelerating upwards before the back end does, and this tilts the train, in its own reference frame.

Where the analogy might break down is that this should cause the tilt to constantly increase, rather than stabilise. That's because the staged firing of the rocket engines will impart an angular momentum on the train (and the rocket floor) that will be preserved. Another way to look at that is that, if the front of the train starts accelerating one second before the rear, the difference in their X' coordinates will constantly increase, as it is ##\frac{1}{2}gt^2-\frac{1}{2}g(t-1)^2=gt-\frac{1}{2}##. This doesn't seem consistent with the formal calcs above that show the tilt is constant.

This is of course a big hand-wave, and no doubt changes when one applies the appropriate Lorentz transformations. But it helps me visualise it.
 
  • #59
FWIW, the ##\gamma^2## factor in the proper acceleration of the train also pops out easily in Rindler coordinates. We have the 4-velocity of the rocket as ##(1, 0, 0)## in these coordinates. and its 4-acceleration is ##(0, g, 0)##; this is derived using the full formula for the covariant derivative:

$$
a^a = u^b \nabla_b u^a = u^b \partial_b u^a + \Gamma^a{}_{bc} u^b u^c
$$

The partial derivative term is zero, and the only connection coefficient that matters is ##\Gamma^X{}_{TT} = 1 / X = g## (since the ##X## coordinate of the rocket in this chart is ##1 / g##), so we have ##a^X = g u^T u^T = g##, with all other components of ##a## zero.

For the train, the only change is that the 4-velocity is now ##(\gamma, 0, \gamma v)##, but the same formula for ##a^X## still applies and it is still the only nonzero term (the partial derivative term is still zero and no other connection coefficients matter), so we have ##a^X = g u^T u^T = g \gamma^2##.

I think the issue I was having before is that, by only looking at the MCRF at one instant, we lose the information about the global behavior of the worldlines that is necessary in order to do a correct computation of the proper acceleration. To do that computation correctly, we need at least enough information about the worldlines to properly compute derivatives, and in the MCRF we don't have that: we have constant 4-velocity components (to the approximation used in the MCRF), and zero connection coefficients (again, to the approximation used in the MCRF), so we've basically thrown away the information we would need to even see any proper acceleration in the math. We can still use information about the proper acceleration to do computations in the MCRF--but we can't use the MCRF to determine what the proper acceleration is; we have to do that some other way, and then plug the result into computations in the MCRF by hand if we need it.
 
  • #60
andrewkirk said:
In the rocket's MCRF, the acceleration commences at the same time at all points on the rocket floor.
But in the train's frame, acceleration commences earlier towards the front than the back.

Yes.

andrewkirk said:
Where the analogy might break down is that this should cause the tilt to constantly increase, rather than stabilise. That's because the staged firing of the rocket engines will impart an angular momentum on the train (and the rocket floor) that will be preserved.

The staged firing does exert a torque, but the torque is not continuous; at least, it isn't if the train and rocket are of finite length in the ##Y## direction! Assuming that is the case, there will be a finite period of time, relative to the train, during which the staged rocket firings are occurring; at the end of that time, all of the rockets are firing and there is no longer any torque being exerted. The "tilt" at this point, relative to the train, is constant; it doesn't continue to increase. (It's important to note, here, that "relative to the train", as pervect's analysis shows, implies a rotating frame; that is the frame in which the "tilt" is constant once the staged firing is completed. However, this "frame" has some issues lurking, which I plan to do a follow-up post to explore.)
 
  • #61
I wanted to write a bit more about the goals of my analysis.

We start out with the premise that a metric is the best and ultimately the only thing needed to describe a coordinate system. This is semi-philosophical, the source of this idea for me is Misner's "Precis of General Relativity", http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9508043. So we start out with the goal of finding a metric, a metric which represents our desired coordinate system.

[add]
A useful background (which many but not all readers in the thread will already be familiar with) is the simpler problem of the coordinate system of an accelerated observer - frequently called "Rindler coordinates". A textbook discussion of this can be found in Misner, Thorne, Wheeler's "Gravitation", chapter 6 on "Accelerated observers", pg 163, a discucssion I won't attempt to duplicate. I'll only very briefely summarize it, first one works out the motion of an accelerating observer in Minkowskii space-time, before tackling the more difficult issue of how they might assign coordinates. The general approach I use is similar, with some differences noted below.

Now, there are lots of coordinate systems one could use. The starting point is that the space-time is Minkowskii space time, and thus we know that our desired coordinates from the "viewpoint of the block" will just be a re-parameterization of Minkowskii space-time. But we have some remaining goals to make the specific choice of coordinates represent "the viewpoint of the block" or at least "a viewpoint of the block".

The first goal is that the the spatial origin of the coordinate system (X=0, Y=0, Z=0) represent the center of the sliding block.

The second goal is that the T coordinate should represent the proper time of a clock at the center of the sliding block.

The third goal, which is somewhat a matter of preference, is that we want to have the metric coefficients independent of time. The space-time will always be stationary, the goal here is to make this stationary property explicit by making the metric coefficients independent of time.

While we would prefer to have the spatial axes of our coordinate system non-rotating, this conflicts with the third goal. . It also turns out that the third goal is much easier to achieve than the goal of findine non-rotating (i,e Fermi-normal) coordinates. Thus the textbook approach of Fermi-Walker transporting a triad of basis spatial vectors does not meet our goal, it leads to a different "viewpoint of the block". It also turns out that it's just plain easier to accomplish the third goal of time independent metric coefficients than it is to accomplish the non-rotating goal.

The fourth goal is to make a spatial slice of constant time (dT=0) have the usual Euclidean metric, dX^2 + dY^2 + dZ^2.

Given that we know that the T coordinate is the proper time of the center of the block, we need a simultaneity convention to determine the T coordinate of other points. Because we know that the block is rotating, we adopt the usual approach, the same one we use on the rotating Earth, where we imagine Einstein synchronizing all the clocks at rest in a non-rotating coordinate system to determine the T coordinate. This choice is a result of the fact that it's just not possible to Einstein-synchronize the clocks at rest in a rotating coordinate system, it's the standard approach to creating time coordinates in a rotating coordinate system.

I believe these motivations are sufficient to specify a unique metric, though I won't guarantee it. The reaming issue (besides ensuring uniqueness) is to make sure that all of the above goals are actually met, that there aren't any errors in the calculations or typos or other errors.

I'm not going to rehash the calculations in detail - they're pretty complex and have been previously posted, though unfortunately scatterered and not well-orgainzied. Knowing the end goals and approach might make them easier to follow.

[add]I'll thrown in a few links, though. I start by discussing the motion of the block in Minkowskii coordinates, in the following thread. (Some of the previous posts in the thread might be helpful, too).

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/the-notion-of-weight-in-relativity.701257/#post-4445483

Based on these results, I come up with a set of transformations from Minkowskii coordinates to the "block" coordinates (T,X,Y,Z) that should meet all of the above goals, and work out the resulting metric. The goals underlying the set of transformations I came up with are explained here, owever, and not explained in the original post.

https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/the-notion-of-weight-in-relativity.701257/page-2#post-4466113
 
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  • #62
Just to round off another item, I want to look at the behavior of a marble released from the train at some instant, in the fixed inertial frame I used above. The marble's 4-velocity at the instant it is released will be the same as that of the train at the same instant, i.e., it will be ##(\gamma_0 (\tau_m) \gamma, \gamma_0 (\tau_m) v_0 (\tau_m) \gamma, \gamma v)##, where ##\tau_m## is the proper time (by the train's clock) when the marble is released. Since the marble is inertial, these 4-velocity components will be constant, so we can write ##\gamma_0 (\tau_m) = \Gamma## and ##v_0 (\tau_m) = V##, and we have

$$
U_m = (\Gamma \gamma, \Gamma V \gamma, \gamma v)
$$

as the constant 4-velocity of the marble. The ordinary velocity of the marble in the ##Y## direction is then ##\gamma v / \Gamma \gamma = v / \Gamma##, and is constant, whereas the ordinary velocity ##v / \gamma_0## of the train decreases over time, as noted already. So the marble will indeed "get ahead" of the train in the ##Y## direction over time.

If we look at the same 4-velocity in the Rindler chart, we have

$$
u_m = \left[ \Gamma \gamma \gamma_0 \left( 1 - v_0 V \right), - \Gamma \gamma \gamma_0 \left( v_0 - V \right), \gamma v \right]
$$

where ##x## is the instantaneous ##x## coordinate of the marble in the Rindler chart, and will decrease with time, since, as the above makes clear, the marble is moving in the ##- x## direction in this chart. In fact, the ordinary velocity of the marble in the ##x## direction is

$$
v_x = \frac{u_x}{u_t} = - \frac{v_0 - V}{1 - v_0 V}
$$

which is just the relativistic velocity subtraction formula, i.e., ##v_x## is exactly what we expect for the relative velocity of the marble and the rocket in the ##x## direction.

The ordinary velocity of the marbie in the ##y## direction in this chart is

$$
v_y = \frac{u_y}{u_t} = \frac{v}{\Gamma \gamma_0 \left( 1 - v_0 V \right)} = \frac{v}{\Gamma \left( 1 - V \right) \gamma_0 \left( 1 - v_0 \right)} = \frac{v}{D D_0}
$$

where ##D = \sqrt{(1 - V) / (1 + V)}## and ##D_0 = \sqrt{(1 - v_0) / (1 + v_0)}## are the Doppler "redshift factors" for the marble and the rocket, respectively, in the fixed inertial frame. Since ##D## is constant and ##D_0 \rightarrow 0## over time, this shows that ##v_y## increases over time in the Rindler chart, indicating, once again, that the marble gets ahead of the train over time.
 
  • #63
Thanks Peter and Pervect for your efforts. Sadly,
1. We have reached a point where I'm having trouble following the math, which may be why
2. I'm not entirely convinced that the analysis is correct. Where did Pervect's rotation and curved floor go?

I can only say that now I see why it took the brightest mind of 20th century 10 years to figure this all out o0)

For the past few days I'm trying to use a different approach to measure the geometry of the train, similar to the standard light clock, but adapted to work under constant proper acceleration. It really makes my brain boil, since there is nothing I can rely on: straight lines, angles, simultaneity, height of the train, everything can change. In fact it seems I'll have to incorporate free-falling radioactive clock in the scheme.

Which brings me to this question, hopefully with a simple answer.
On the track where the train is moving, we put marks that are spaced regularly.
The passengers have with them a radioactive material that decays to half between every 2 marks.
Will this condition hold, as the rocket accelerates?
 
  • #64
Can the result with falling marble be transformed back to gravity field?
Lets say that the planet is still flat and the field is homogeneous at the surface, but gets weaker with altitude.
(Probably the easiest answer would be that a field with these properties is impossible...)
If it's possible to some reasonable accuracy, let's put an observer (Mr. Marble) at high altitude, watching the train.
Will he see the train eventually stop, or at least slow down?
 
  • #65
SlowThinker said:
Can the result with falling marble be transformed back to gravity field?

No, at least not over a long enough period of time. When spacetime is curved, the long-term trajectories of all of the objects in the scenario will be different.

SlowThinker said:
Lets say that the planet is still flat and the field is homogeneous at the surface, but gets weaker with altitude.
(Probably the easiest answer would be that a field with these properties is impossible...)

The "easiest answer" is the right one. There is no solution in GR that describes a flat planet. Planets (and other gravitating bodies) in GR are spherically symmetric, or roughly so (if they are rotating they won't be exactly spherical, but oblate).

SlowThinker said:
If it's possible to some reasonable accuracy, let's put an observer (Mr. Marble) at high altitude, watching the train.
Will he see the train eventually stop, or at least slow down?

If you want to set up a scenario as close to the flat spacetime one as possible, the marble should not be at some high altitude; it should be released from the train into free fall, so its altitude starts off the same as the train's. For short times after that, its trajectory will look like the flat spacetime one: it will appear, to someone at rest in the train, that the marble is falling downward with acceleration ##g \gamma^2##, and initially, it will not "gain" on the train.

Over a longer time, however, the marble's trajectory--and the train's, for that matter--will be curved by the planet's gravity. The first question is: is the speed of the marble and the train greater than the escape velocity from the planet at that altitude? Escape velocity from the Earth's surface is only 11 km/s, or about 1/30,000 of the speed of light, so if we want the train's and marble's speeds to be relativistic relative to the planet, either they will quickly escape (if we use the Earth), meaning we aren't really seeing any effects of curved spacetime, or we need a "planet" which is much larger and has a much higher escape velocity at the altitude of the train--which probably means a supermassive black hole and an altitude fairly close to the horizon. However, if we are fairly close to the horizon, there are no free-fall orbits that don't fall into the hole, so once we release the marble, it will fairly quickly disappear below the hole's horizon, and we can't run a long-term experiment anyway.
 
  • #66
SlowThinker said:
On the track where the train is moving, we put marks that are spaced regularly.
The passengers have with them a radioactive material that decays to half between every 2 marks.
Will this condition hold, as the rocket accelerates?

Yes. The time dilation factor of the train relative to the rocket is constant; all of the weird effects we have been talking about are relative to a fixed inertial frame, in which both the rocket and the train are accelerating.
 
  • #67
pervect said:
Based on these results, I come up with a set of transformations from Minkowskii coordinates to the "block" coordinates (T,X,Y,Z) that should meet all of the above goals, and work out the resulting metric.

I'm going to try to do this using the notation I used in my previous posts. We start with the 4-velocity of a point on the floor of the train, which in Minkowski coordinates is

$$
U = \left[ \gamma \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right), \gamma \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right), \gamma v \right]
$$

where ##\tau## is the proper time along the worldline of the point on train with 4-velocity ##U##. We could rewrite this as a function of the coordinate time ##T##, but it's easier just to leave everything as a function of ##\tau## and then ask how we would need to transform the coordinates to make the 4-velocity be ##u = (1, 0, 0)##, the timelike basis vector of the new chart. (Note that ##\gamma## and ##v## are constants, and that we are leaving out the ##Z## coordinate since nothing changes in that direction.)

Actually, what's easier is to ask what the Minkowski coordinates would have to be as functions of the "train frame" coordinates in order to transform ##u## into ##U##. In other words, we want

$$
\partial_{\tau} = \gamma \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_T + \gamma \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_X + \gamma v \partial_Y
$$

We also want the second coordinate ##\chi## to have a basis vector that points in the direction of proper acceleration, i.e., we want

$$
\partial_{\chi} = \frac{1}{g \gamma^2} a = \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_T + \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_X
$$

Finally, we want the third coordinate ##\psi## to have a basis vector that is orthogonal to both of the above. Writing the three components of this basis vector in Minkowski coordinates as ##a##, ##b##, and ##c##, the two orthogonality conditions are:

$$
a \gamma \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) - b \gamma \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) - c \gamma v = 0
$$

$$
a \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) - b \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) = 0
$$

Using the second condition to eliminate ##b## in the first gives

$$
a \gamma \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) - a \tanh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \gamma \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) - c \gamma v = 0
$$

This gives ##c## in terms of ##a##; we then must have that the vector is a spacelike unit vector, so

$$
a^2 - b^2 - c^2 = - 1
$$

Substituting from the above gives

$$
a^2 \left[ 1 - \tanh^2 \left( g \gamma \tau \right) - \frac{1}{v^2 \cosh^2 \left( g \gamma \tau \right)} \right] = -1
$$

Putting the above all together gives us solutions for ##a##, ##b##, and ##c##, which gives us our third basis vector:

$$
\partial_{\psi} = \gamma v \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_T + \gamma v \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_X + \gamma \partial_Y
$$

It is straightforward to check that each of these is a unit vector (one timelike and two spacelike), and that they are all mutually orthogonal.

I'll do the next step of deriving the form of the metric in the new chart in a follow-up post. (I originally had that in this post, but I need to check it so I've deleted it for now.)
 
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  • #68
[Edit: the metric near the end of this post is not entirely correct; see post #79 for the correct line element.]

This is a continuation of my previous post, where we found three basis vectors, which I will re-label here:

$$
\hat{e}_0 = \gamma \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_T + \gamma \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_X + \gamma v \partial_Y
$$

$$
\hat{e}_1 = \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_T + \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_X
$$

$$
\hat{e}_2 = \gamma v \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_T + \gamma v \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_X + \gamma \partial_Y
$$

The re-labeling is because we should not necessarily expect these three basis vectors, which describe the frame field of "train observers" as seen from the viewpoint of a fixed inertial frame, to be "pure" coordinate partial derivatives ##\partial_{\tau}##, ##\partial_{\chi}##, ##\partial_{\psi}## everywhere. In particular, by analogy with Rindler coordinates, we should not expect ##\hat{e}_0 = \partial_{\tau}## everywhere; at the very least, we would expect ##\hat{e}_0 = \left( 1 / g \chi \right) \partial_{\tau}## (though, as we'll see, that is not a complete formula for ##\hat{e}_0##).

However, we have another issue to deal with. The above formulas were derived, strictly speaking, for a "reference" observer who is at ##\chi = 1 / g##, ##\psi = 0## in the train coordinates. But we want general formulas that are valid everywhere in the train chart. So we need to figure out how things vary with ##\chi## and ##\psi## and generalize the above formulas accordingly.

Simply applying a boost with velocity ##v## in the ##y## direction of Rindler coordinates gives us the ansatz:

$$
T = \chi \sinh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right]
$$

$$
X = \chi \cosh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right]
$$

$$
Y = \gamma v \tau + \gamma \psi
$$

Computing ##\partial_{\tau}##, ##\partial_{\chi}##, and ##\partial_{\psi}## and normalizing gives us the following:

$$
\hat{e}_0 = \frac{1}{\gamma \sqrt{g^2 \chi^2 - v^2}} \partial_{\tau} = \frac{g \chi}{\sqrt{g^2 \chi^2 - v^2}} \cosh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] \partial_T + \frac{g \chi}{\sqrt{g^2 \chi^2 - v^2}} \sinh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] \partial_X + \frac{v}{\sqrt{g^2 \chi^2 - v^2}} \partial_Y
$$

$$
\hat{e}_1 = \partial_{\chi} = \sinh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] \partial_T + \cosh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] \partial_X
$$

$$
\hat{e}_2 = \frac{1}{\gamma \sqrt{1 - g^2 \chi^2 v^2}} \partial_{\psi} = \frac{g \chi v}{\sqrt{1 - g^2 \chi^2 v^2}} \cosh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] \partial_T + \frac{g \chi v}{\sqrt{1 - g^2 \chi^2 v^2}} \sinh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] \partial_X + \frac{1}{\sqrt{1 - g^2 \chi^2 v^2}} \partial_Y
$$

For ##v = 0##, ##\gamma = 1##, this reduces to the standard frame field for Rindler observers. Also, for ##\chi = 1 / g##, ##\psi = 0##, it reduces to the expressions we derived previously. So it looks like we're on the right track.

Now we compute the coordinate differentials to find an expression for the metric in this chart:

$$
dT = g \gamma \chi \cosh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] \left( d\tau + v d\psi \right) + \sinh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] d\chi
$$

$$
dX = g \gamma \chi \sinh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] \left( d\tau + v d\psi \right) + \cosh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] d\chi
$$

$$
dY = \gamma v d\tau + \gamma d\psi
$$

Plugging these into the Minkowski metric gives, after some algebra (and after putting back the ##z## coordinate for completeness) [Edit: this is not correct, see post #79 for the correct form]:

$$
ds^2 = - \gamma^2 \left( g^2 \chi^2 - v^2 \right) d\tau^2 + 2 v \gamma^2 \left( 1 - g^2 \chi^2 \right) d\tau d\psi + d\psi^2 + d\chi^2 + dz^2
$$

This makes sense, first of all, because the factor in front of ##g_{tt}## exactly matches the factor in front of ##\partial_{\tau}## in the expression for ##\hat{e}_0## above, verifying that ##\hat{e}_0## is indeed the correct 4-velocity of an observer at rest in this chart. Second, for ##v = 0##, ##\gamma = 1##, this metric reduces to the Rindler metric, as it should. Third, the purely spatial part of the metric is Euclidean [Edit: no, it isn't; see post #79], as we had hoped.

However, this metric does not look like the one pervect derived; it only has one "cross term", not two. I'll save further comment on what that means, and in general on the physical interpretation of this metric and the associated basis vectors, for a follow-up post.
 
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  • #69
Clearly you are putting a lot of time into this, so I'm trying to follow the math.
PeterDonis said:
We also want the second coordinate ##\chi## to have a basis vector that points in the direction of proper acceleration, i.e., we want

$$
\partial_{\chi} = \frac{1}{g \gamma^2}\mathbf{a}= \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_T + \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) \partial_X
$$

Finally, we want the third coordinate ##\psi## to have a basis vector that is orthogonal to both of the above. Writing the three components of this basis vector in Minkowski coordinates as ##a##, ##b##, and ##c##, the two orthogonality conditions are:

$$
\mathbf{a} \gamma \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) - b \gamma \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right) - c \gamma v = 0
$$
That's nasty, switching the meaning of "a" like that :wideeyed:

PeterDonis said:
Simply applying a boost with velocity ##v## in the ##y## direction of Rindler coordinates gives us the ansatz:
$$T = \chi \sinh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right]$$
$$X = \chi \cosh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right]$$
$$Y = \gamma v \tau + \gamma \psi$$
Where does this come from? Is it pulled out of thin air? Anyway, the expression for Y seems to be somewhat asymmetric compared to the other two, should not it read
$$Y=\gamma\tau+\gamma v\psi \text{ }\,\,\,\,\,\text{?}$$

PeterDonis said:
Computing ##\partial_{\tau}##, ##\partial_{\chi}##, and ##\partial_{\psi}## and normalizing gives us the following:

$$\hat{e}_0 = \frac{1}{\gamma \sqrt{g^2 \chi^2 - v^2}} \partial_{\tau} = ...$$
$$\hat{e}_1 = \partial_{\chi} = ...$$
$$\hat{e}_2 = \frac{1}{\gamma \sqrt{1 - g^2 \chi^2 v^2}} \partial_{\psi} = ...$$
What is being normalized here? This is a bit over my head o_O
 
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  • #70
It seems that ##\hat e_0## and ##\hat e_1## are being normalized to ##|\hat e_0|=1## and ##|\hat e_1|=-1##, but ##\hat e_2## does not quite fit.
Plus, is it even legal to neglect the ##\partial_T## etc. during the normalization?
 
  • #71
SlowThinker said:
Where does this come from?

As I said, it is taking Rindler coordinates and boosting them in the ##y## direction with velocity ##v##. In other words, we take the coordinates ##t, x, y, z## as defined here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rindler_coordinates#Relation_to_Cartesian_chart

Then we use ##t = \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right)## and ##y = \gamma \left( \psi + v \tau \right)## to define ##\tau## and ##\psi## (note that this is just a Lorentz transformation), and substitute into the equations given on the Wikipedia page above for ##T##, ##X##, and ##Y## in terms of ##t##, ##x##, and ##y## (##z## is unchanged).

SlowThinker said:
What is being normalized here?

The idea is to get unit vectors in the directions of ##\partial_{\tau}##, ##\partial_{\chi}##, and ##\partial_{\psi}##; we do that by dividing each of those vectors by their norms, which is where the term "normalized" comes from.

SlowThinker said:
It seems that ##\hat e_0## and ##\hat e_1## are being normalized to ##|\hat e_0|=1## and ##|\hat e_1|=-1##, but ##\hat e_2## does not quite fit.

You're right, I had left out a factor of ##g \chi## in the first two components of ##\hat{e}_2##. Good catch. :oops: Fixed now.
 
  • #72
SlowThinker said:
is it even legal to neglect the ##\partial_T## etc. during the normalization?

I'm not sure what you mean by this, but perhaps you aren't familiar with the notation I'm using, which takes advantage of the fact that there is a one-to-one correspondence between vectors and directional derivatives. So when I write ##\partial_T##, that is best viewed not as a partial derivative with respect to ##T##, but as a vector that points in the positive ##T## direction. (In this particular case, it's a unit vector, because all of the metric coefficients in the Minkowski metric are ##\pm 1##. But in general, as the examples of ##\partial_{\tau}## and the other two vectors in the train chart show, simple vectors of the form ##\partial_x##, where ##x## is some coordinate, are not necessarily unit vectors.) The expressions for ##\hat{e}_0## and the other two basis vectors are simply forming a new set of basis vectors by taking linear combinations of the basis vectors in the Minkowski chart (##\partial_T## and friends).
 
  • #73
SlowThinker said:
the expression for Y seems to be somewhat asymmetric compared to the other two, should not it read
Y=γτ+γvψ ?​

No. Think of how ##t## and ##y## would transform to ##t'## and ##y'## in a Lorentz transformation in the ##y## direction. There is indeed a symmetry involved, but it's not quite the one you appear to be implicitly assuming should be there.
 
  • #74
PeterDonis said:
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but perhaps you aren't familiar with the notation I'm using, which takes advantage of the fact that there is a one-to-one correspondence between vectors and directional derivatives. So when I write ##\partial_T##, that is best viewed not as a partial derivative with respect to ##T##, but as a vector that points in the positive ##T## direction. (In this particular case, it's a unit vector, because all of the metric coefficients in the Minkowski metric are ##\pm 1##. But in general, as the examples of ##\partial_{\tau}## and the other two vectors in the train chart show, simple vectors of the form ##\partial_x##, where ##x## is some coordinate, are not necessarily unit vectors.) The expressions for ##\hat{e}_0## and the other two basis vectors are simply forming a new set of basis vectors by taking linear combinations of the basis vectors in the Minkowski chart (##\partial_T## and friends).
Indeed this is the first time I see partial derivatives of coordinates. What puzzles me, if the ##\partial_T## is not 1 (and it probably won't be), how can the ##\hat e_0## be normalized? It looks as if the normalization expects all the derivatives to be ##\partial_T=\partial_X=\partial_Y=1##. If you say it's correct, I guess I'll just play along.
Edit: Maybe ##\hat e_0## can be seen as the first row in some matrix ##\hat E##? You get ##(\partial_\tau, \partial_\chi, \partial_\psi)^T=\hat E \cdot (\partial_T, \partial_X, \partial_Y)^T##. It looks fishy to me but at least I can see why you want the rows of ##\hat E## to have unit length.
 
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  • #75
SlowThinker said:
this is the first time I see partial derivatives of coordinates.

Then I would strongly recommend taking some time to learn differential geometry, at least to the extent that it is used in physics. What I did is not intended to be obvious without that background knowledge. Even Einstein had to spend several years being taught differential geometry by his friend Marcel Grossman before he could come up with General Relativity.

I learned differential geometry from Misner, Thorne, and Wheeler, but that may not be the best source. Carroll's online lecture notes on GR have a good discussion of it in Chapter 2:

http://arxiv.org/abs/gr-qc/9712019

He talks about the equivalence between vectors and directional derivatives, which is the key thing I'm using here.

SlowThinker said:
It looks as if the normalization expects all the derivatives to be ##\partial_T=\partial_X=\partial_Y=1##.

No, they're not the number ##1##. They are unit vectors--vectors of length ##1## (more precisely, of squared length ##\pm 1##), but in different directions. So when we form linear combinations of them, we are doing vector addition, not number addition.

For a simpler example, consider a two-dimensional Euclidean plane. In standard Cartesian coordinates ##x, y##, the basis vectors are ##\partial_x## and ##\partial_y##; these are unit vectors in the ##x## and ##y## directions. The metric in this chart is

$$
ds^2 = dx^2 + dy^2
$$

Now suppose we form the vector

$$
v = \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \left( \partial_x + \partial_y \right)
$$

The length of this vector is

$$
| v | = \sqrt{\left( \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \right)^2 + \left( \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \right)^2} = 1
$$

so it is a unit vector, but pointing in a different direction, making an angle of 45 degrees with both ##\partial_x## and ##\partial_y##.
 
  • #76
PeterDonis said:
I'm going to try to do this using the notation I used in my previous posts. We start with the 4-velocity of a point on the floor of the train, which in Minkowski coordinates is

$$
U = \left[ \gamma \cosh \left( g \gamma \tau \right), \gamma \sinh \left( g \gamma \tau \right), \gamma v \right]
$$

where ##\tau## is the proper time along the worldline of the point on train with 4-velocity ##U##. We could rewrite this as a function of the coordinate time ##T##, but it's easier just to leave everything as a function of ##\tau## and then ask how we would need to transform the coordinates to make the 4-velocity be ##u = (1, 0, 0)##, the timelike basis vector of the new chart. (Note that ##\gamma## and ##v## are constants, and that we are leaving out the ##Z## coordinate since nothing changes in that direction.)

Reviewing my previous posts, I don't seem to be getting the same four-velocity U. Could you quickly review your notation for me? I'll try to translate my notation (which wasn't well documented) to yours to compare the results. We have three coordinate systems of some interest.

1) Minkowskii coordinates. I used (t,x,y,z) for these. What symbols did you use?

2) Rindler coordinates. These would be the coordinates in the rocket frame, an intermediate set of coordinates. I didn't really have a notation for them, an unfortunate oversight.

3) Block coordinates (the co-ordinates we are finding the metric in, the ones that are supposed to represent the viewpoint of the block.) We can regard the metric we find as a concise definition of the block coordinates.

Additionally, the acceleration of the rocket and rocket floor is in the "x" direction, the motion of the block relative to the floor is in the "y" direction, and we can pretty much ignore z?

Also is "v" the coordinate velocity of the block relative to the floor (in the Rindler frame) and can we assume c=1 and gamma = 1 / sqrt(1-v^2)?
 
  • #77
SlowThinker said:
Maybe ##\hat e_0## can be seen as the first row in some matrix ##\hat E##?

No. Vectors aren't matrices. They can be treated as one-dimensional arrays of components, if we have picked a particular coordinate chart; but their components will change if we change charts.

In the simple example I gave in my last post, the vector ##v## has components ##\left( \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}, \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} \right)## in the Cartesian chart. But if we switch to polar coordinates, the same vector ##v## now has components ##\left( 1, 0 \right)##, since the coordinate basis vectors are now ##\partial_r## and ##\partial_{\theta}##, and ##v## points in a purely radial direction.
 
  • #78
pervect said:
Reviewing my previous posts, I don't seem to be getting the same four-velocity U.

The one you quoted was preliminary only, it's not valid everywhere. The correct 4-velocity is the vector ##\hat{e}_0## in post #68. Note that as I expressed it there, it gives components in both the train (or sliding block) chart and the Minkowski chart, but expressed as linear combinations of the basis vectors, with components as functions of the train chart coordinates.

pervect said:
1) Minkowskii coordinates. I used (t,x,y,z) for these. What symbols did you use?

I used ##T, X, Y, Z##, because that's the notation used in the Wikipedia page on Rindler coordinates.

pervect said:
2) Rindler coordinates. These would be the coordinates in the rocket frame, an intermediate set of coordinates. I didn't really have a notation for them, an unfortunate oversight.

I only mention these a couple of times, but where I did, I used ##t, x, y, z##, again because that's the notation used in the Wikipedia page on Rindler coordinates.

pervect said:
3) Block coordinates (the co-ordinates we are finding the metric in, the ones that are supposed to represent the viewpoint of the block.) We can regard the metric we find as a concise definition of the block coordinates.

I used ##\tau, \chi, \psi, z##, to avoid any possible confusion with Rindler coordinates.

pervect said:
Additionally, the acceleration of the rocket and rocket floor is in the "x" direction, the motion of the block relative to the floor is in the "y" direction, and we can pretty much ignore z?

Yes, for both Rindler coordinates (lower-case x, y, z in my notation) and Minkowski coordinates (capital X, Y, Z in my notation).

pervect said:
Also is "v" the coordinate velocity of the block relative to the floor (in the Rindler frame) and can we assume c=1 and gamma = 1 / sqrt(1-v^2)?

Yes.

Edit: I should also add that I put the floor of the rocket/train at ##\chi = 1 / g##, whereas you are putting it at your ##X = 0##. So my metric wouldn't be exactly the same as yours; mine is a kind of Rindler-like chart for the train, whereas yours is a kind of not-quite-Fermi normal chart (since you don't Fermi-Walker transport all your basis vectors). So they should be closely related, but not necessarily identical.
 
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  • #79
PeterDonis said:
Plugging these into the Minkowski metric gives, after some algebra

I just realized that I did some of the algebra wrong. The coefficient of ##d\psi^2## can't be 1, because the vector ##\partial_{\psi}## is not a unit vector; as we can read off from the definition of ##\hat{e}_2##, the norm of ##\partial_{\psi}## is ##\gamma \sqrt{1 - g^2 \chi^2 v^2}## (and we can check this by direct computation from the coordinate transformation given). So the coefficient of ##d\psi^2## in the metric should be the square of that, and re-checking my algebra I find that it is. So the correct line element is

$$
ds^2 = - \gamma^2 \left( g^2 \chi^2 - v^2 \right) d\tau^2 + 2 v \gamma^2 \left( 1 - g^2 \chi^2 \right) d\tau d\psi + \gamma^2 \left( 1 - g^2 \chi^2 v^2 \right) d\psi^2 + d\chi^2 + dz^2
$$

So the spatial part of the metric is not, in fact, Euclidean; it is curved in the ##\psi## direction. I'll leave further comment to a follow-up post.
 
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  • #80
Ok, I've been promising a follow-up on the physical meaning of the metric I derived, so here it is. :wink:

First, let's invert the coordinate transformation to get the "train frame" coordinates in terms of the Minkowski coordinates. This turns out to be:

$$
\tau = \gamma \left( \frac{1}{g} \tanh^{-1} \frac{T}{X} - v Y \right)
$$

$$
\chi = \sqrt{X^2 - T^2}
$$

$$
\psi = \gamma \left( Y - \frac{v}{g} \tanh^{-1} \frac{T}{X} \right)
$$

We note that ##\chi## is the same as the Rindler ##x## coordinate; it corresponds to the Minkowski ##X## coordinate of a train observer's worldline when ##T = 0##, i.e., when the rocket is at rest in the Minkowski frame. However, ##\tau## and ##\psi## are more complicated; we can see from the above that they are linear combinations of the Rindler ##t## and ##y## coordinates, of the sort we would expect from a Lorentz boost in the ##y## direction with velocity ##v##.

Next, let's look at the three metric coefficients ##g_{\tau \tau}##, ##g_{\tau \psi}##, and ##g_{\psi \psi}##. All three of these go to zero at particular values of ##\chi##, i.e., at particular altitudes. For ##g_{\tau \tau}##, this value is

$$
\chi = \frac{v}{g}
$$

This is below the floor of the rocket/train (fortunately!), which is at ##\chi = 1 / g##, since ##v < 1##. However, it is not at ##\chi = 0##, which is where the Rindler horizon is in standard Rindler coordinates. In other words, the "Rindler horizon" for the train observers (I put it in quote because they are not standard Rindler observers) is a shorter distance below them than the Rindler horizon is for the rocket observers.

For ##g_{\tau \psi}##, the value at which it vanishes is

$$
\chi = \frac{1}{g}
$$

In other words, on the floor of the rocket/train, the metric is orthogonal; non-orthogonality only appears above or below that altitude. What's more, if we plug ##\chi = 1 / g## into ##g_{tt}## and ##g_{\psi \psi}##, we find that those metric coefficients become ##-1## and ##1##, respectively. So on the floor of the rocket/train, this metric is actually the Minkowski metric. This tells us that our metric is indeed similar to Fermi normal coordinates for a train observer on the floor of the train ("similar" because the spatial origin is not on the worldline--the worldline is at ##\chi = 1 / g## instead of ##\chi = 0##).

For ##g_{\psi \psi}##, the value at which it vanishes is

$$
\chi = \frac{1}{v g}
$$

This tells us that at some altitude above the floor of the rocket/train, the vector ##\partial_{\psi}## becomes null instead of spacelike. This is actually to be expected at some point because of the non-orthogonality of ##\partial_{\tau}## and ##\partial_{\psi}##. But we don't really have enough information at this point to understand what it means, physically.

To better understand what is going on, it is useful to compute the kinematic decomposition of the congruence describing the train observers. I'll do that in yet another follow-up post. :wink:
 
  • #81
As the next follow-up, I'll compute the kinematic decomposition of the "train observer" congruence. It will be useful to re-express the 4-velocity ##\hat{e}_0## purely in terms of Minkowski coordinates. This will simplify computing covariant derivatives since all of the connection coefficients are zero in the Minkowski chart.

We have the inverse coordinate transformation from my previous post, but it will help to have the following additional formulas, which are straightforward to derive:

$$
\cosh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] = \frac{X}{\sqrt{X^2 - T^2}}
$$

$$
\sinh \left[ g \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right] = \frac{T}{\sqrt{X^2 - T^2}}
$$

Armed with all that, we can rewrite the 4-velocity as follows:

$$
\hat{e}_0 = U = \frac{1}{\sqrt{g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2}} \left( g X \partial_T + g T \partial_X + v \partial_Y \right)
$$

As a first check, let's compute the proper acceleration of this; it is ##A^a = U^b \partial_b U^a##, which in components gives, after some algebra:

$$
A = \frac{g^2}{g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2} \left( T \partial_T + X \partial_X \right)
$$

If we refer back to the unit basis vectors, we will see that we have

$$
A = \frac{g^2 \chi}{g^2 \chi^2 - v^2} \hat{e}_1
$$

So the proper acceleration does indeed always point in the ##\chi## direction, as expected. (Also, for ##\chi = 1 / g##, the magnitude of ##A## is ##g \gamma^2##, which is consistent with our previous results.)

Next, we compute the tensor ##A_a U_b + \partial_b U_a##, which will give us the rest of the kinematic decomposition. Note that the indexes are lowered; that means that the ##T## components of vectors will have their signs flipped from what is written above (but the product ##A_T U_T## will have two minus signs compared to ##A^T U^T##, so the sign flips cancel). Since all quantities are functions of ##T## and ##X## only (and the ##Y## component of ##U## is constant), we will have the six potentially nonzero components. After computation, the results are:

$$
A_T U_T + \partial_T U_T = 0
$$

$$
A_T U_X + \partial_X U_T = \frac{g v^2}{\left( g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2 \right)^{3/2}}
$$

$$
A_T U_Y = - \frac{g^2 v T}{g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2}
$$

$$
A_X U_T + \partial_T U_X = - \frac{g v^2}{\left( g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2 \right)^{3/2}}
$$

$$
A_X U_X + \partial_X U_X = 0
$$

$$
A_X U_Y = \frac{g^2 v X}{g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2}
$$

There are no nonzero diagonal components, so the expansion scalar is zero. The symmetric and antisymmetric parts give the shear ##\sigma## and vorticity ##\omega##:

$$
\sigma_{TY} = \sigma_{YT} = - \frac{1}{2} \frac{g^2 v T}{g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2}
$$

$$
\sigma_{XY} = \sigma_{YX} = \frac{1}{2} \frac{g^2 v X}{g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2}
$$

$$
\omega_{TX} = - \omega_{XT} = \frac{g v^2}{\left( g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2 \right)^{3/2}}
$$

$$
\omega_{TY} = - \omega_{YT} = - \frac{1}{2} \frac{g^2 v T}{g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2}
$$

$$
\omega_{XY} = - \omega_{YX} = \frac{1}{2} \frac{g^2 v X}{g^2 \left( X^2 - T^2 \right) - v^2}
$$

So this congruence has both nonzero shear and nonzero vorticity (unlike the Rindler congruence, for which expansion, shear, and vorticity all vanish). I'll comment further on those in one more follow-up post.
 
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  • #82
I have been away from this thread for a while. as I've been trying to work through it myself. So I'm hopelessly out of date with what's been written here. Hence the following question may be nonsensical or out of context, but I'll ask it anyway. It's about this:
PeterDonis said:
it is taking Rindler coordinates and boosting them in the ##y## direction with velocity ##v##. In other words, we take the coordinates ##t, x, y, z## as defined here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rindler_coordinates#Relation_to_Cartesian_chart

Then we use ##t = \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right)## and ##y = \gamma \left( \psi + v \tau \right)## to define ##\tau## and ##\psi## (note that this is just a Lorentz transformation)
My understanding is that a Lorentz transformation is defined, and has the quoted form, for a transformation between two inertial frames. A frame of Rindler coordinates is not inertial. Doesn't that disqualify it from being able to handle a velocity boost with just a Lorentz transformation?
 
  • #83
andrewkirk said:
My understanding is that a Lorentz transformation is defined, and has the quoted form, for a transformation between two inertial frames. A frame of Rindler coordinates is not inertial. Doesn't that disqualify it from being able to handle a velocity boost with just a Lorentz transformation?

I was using sloppy terminology; I should have said that the transformation from ##t, y## to ##\tau, \psi## has the same form as a Lorentz transformation, if you just look at the transformation equation. But of course it isn't really a Lorentz transformation, as you say, since the metric in both charts is not the Minkowski metric (because they're not inertial coordinates). The point is that, heuristically, we can view the "train coordinates" as Rindler coordinates that have been "boosted" in the ##y## direction with velocity ##v##; that is what motivates the coordinate transformation I gave. But my derivation certainly does not rest on the claim that the transformation is an actual Lorentz transformation between inertial frames; obviously it's not.
 
  • #84
PeterDonis said:
I should have said that the transformation from ##t, y## to ##\tau, \psi## has the same form as a Lorentz transformation, if you just look at the transformation equation.
Can you please link to where you derived the transformation? Sorry to be a nuisance but this thread has grown so much, and contains so much maths that I've lost track of what's where.

In my own meanderings I had been pursuing the line of trying to get things in 'train coordinates' (by which I mean a coordinate system in which the centre of the train remains at the origin) by first getting the 'rocket coordinates' as Rindler coordinates and then applying a velocity boost. But I hit a brick wall when I realized I couldn't use the Lorentz transformation for that last step. It looked like I'd have to work out the transformation from first principles using reflected beams of light etc, and that looked like so much work that I left it to try another avenue.

Thank you.
 
  • #85
andrewkirk said:
Can you please link to where you derived the transformation? Sorry to be a nuisance but this thread has grown so much, and contains so much maths that I've lost track of what's where.
From post #67 it follows quite straight forward, with a few references to page 3.
I have to admit I find some things hard to swallow, but Peter seems confident in those steps, so I'm just trying to follow.

I'm plowing through the Carroll's book, but it's not an easy read. After 11 pages of definitions, my morale is a bit low.
 
  • #86
andrewkirk said:
Can you please link to where you derived the transformation? Sorry to be a nuisance but this thread has grown so much, and contains so much maths that I've lost track of what's where.

It's not a nuisance, I'm having trouble keeping track myself of all the stuff I've posted. o_O

Post #67, which SlowThinker referred to, is the start of a derivation, but the basis vectors given there are only correct for ##\chi = 1 / g, \psi = 0## (which corresponds to a "reference observer" at rest on the floor of the train, who is at Minkowski coordinate ##Y = 0## at ##T = 0##). The correct general basis vectors and the coordinate transformation are given in post #68, but the line element given there is not completely correct. Post #79 gives the correct line element. Post #80 gives the inverse coordinate transformation.

As far as "derivation" goes, I haven't by any means given a complete one; I've left out a lot of algebra, and in any case a coordinate transformation isn't really "derived", it's guessed, first, and then the consequences of the guess are worked out to see if they make sense and meet the original requirements. The key steps in my reasoning are:

(1) We want a transformation that makes the 4-velocity of a "train observer" (strictly speaking, one on the floor of the train--see item 4 below) look, heuristically, like the 4-velocity of a Rindler observer boosted in the ##y## direction with velocity ##v##. The transformation in post #68, and its inverse in post #80, do that; that's what the computations in post #68 of the 4-velocity confirm (and the further computations in post #81, expressing the 4-velocity purely in terms of Minkowski coordinates, provide further confirmation).

(2) In the new coordinate chart, the 4-velocity of a "train observer" should be a unit timelike vector purely in the ##\tau## direction, i.e., it should be ##\partial_{\tau} / \sqrt{- g_{\tau \tau}}##. This is obvious from the computations referred to above.

(3) In the new coordinate chart, the proper acceleration of a "train observer" should be purely in the ##\chi## direction, i.e., it should be ##a \partial_{\chi}##, where ##a## is the magnitude of the proper acceleration. I verified this when I did the computations underlying post #68, but I didn't actually post a confirmation until post #81. Note that this requirement implies, since the 4-velocity and proper acceleration must be orthogonal, that the ##\tau## and ##\chi## coordinates are orthogonal (no ##d\tau d\chi## "cross terms" in the metric), which can easily be verified by looking at the line element in post #79.

(4) On the floor of the train, which corresponds to ##\chi = 1 / g##, all of the stuff above should reduce to what was given in post #67--i.e,. the metric should be orthogonal (i.e., the ##d\tau d\psi## cross term should vanish), the 4-velocity should be simply ##\partial_{\tau}## (i.e., ##\partial_{\tau}## should be a unit vector, meaning that the ##\tau## coordinate measures proper time for observers on the floor of the train), the spatial part of the metric should be Euclidean (i.e., ##\partial_{\psi}## should also be a unit vector), and the form of ##\partial_{\tau}## and ##\partial_{\psi}## should make evident the "Lorentz boost" in the ##y## direction compared to Rindler coordinates. These can all be verified by looking at the posts referenced above.

So the coordinate transformation I guessed in post #68 turns out to work, in the sense that it meets the requirements above for a "train frame". But, as I noted in post #79, this chart does not have at least one property that pervect was trying to achieve: the spatial part of the metric is not Euclidean everywhere. (It is on the floor of the train, as noted above, but not elsewhere--by contrast, the spatial part of the metric in Rindler coordinates is Euclidean everywhere.) Also, other than on the floor of the train, the ##\tau## and ##\psi## coordinates are not orthogonal, which means that the basis vectors ##\hat{e}_0## and ##\hat{e}_2## do not exactly look like Rindler basis vectors "boosted" in the ##y## direction with velocity ##v##.
 
  • #87
I am still re-working through the problem - however, I don't see how the spatial slices can possibly be curved. To be curved, the spatial displacement vectors in a surface of constant coordinate time ##\tau## would have to not commute, i.e. ##\hat{\chi} + \hat{\psi}## would not be equal to ##\hat{\psi} + \hat{\chi}##, similar to the way that going in a great circles on a sphere one mile east, followed by going one mile north, doesn't wind up at the same spot as going one mile north first, then one mile east second. But I believe we we (and MTW in similar derivations for Rindler coordinates) set out by assuming that the space was an affine space, where we could add displacement vectors linearly and without regard to order.

Additionally, I'd expect the off-diagional terms in a rotating metric to look like ##d\phi \, dt## in polar coordinates. Considering that ##\phi = \arctan y/x## in cartesian coordinates, then the cartesian equivalent of the ##d\phi## term is ##({x\,dy - y\,dx}) / ({x^2+y^2})##, which has the form that I originally had but you objected to.

That said, your expression for the 4-velocity looks right to me, and I haven't been able to convince myself yet that it's the same as the expressio in my original posts, so I'm not convinced that they're right, either.
 
  • #88
pervect said:
I don't see how the spatial slices can possibly be curved. To be curved, the spatial displacement vectors in a surface of constant coordinate time ##\tau## would have to not commute, i.e. \hat{\chi} + ##\hat{\psi}## would not be equal to ##\hat{\psi} + \hat{\chi}##, similar to the way that going in a great circles on a sphere one mile east, followed by going one mile north, doesn't wind up at the same spot as going one mile north first, then one mile east second

I agree this is a good test for curvature, so I'll see if I can compute it. I was inferring spatial curvature simply on the basis of the fact that ##g_{\psi \psi}## is not ##1##, but it's possible that that is a coordinate artifact, so you're right that we should test it by computing invariants.

pervect said:
I believe we we (and MTW in similar derivations for Rindler coordinates) set out by assuming that the space was an affine space

I didn't assume that, at least I don't see that I did--except in the obvious sense that the underlying manifold is still Minkowski spacetime.

pervect said:
I'd expect the off-diagional terms in a rotating metric to look like ##d\phi dt## in polar coordinates.

If the rotation--by which we really mean nonzero vorticity of the congruence of observers at rest in the chart--were generated in the "usual" way, by observers following worldlines whose spatial projections were closed curves--more precisely, whose spatial projections were closed orbits of a spacelike Killing vector field--I would agree. But the rotation of this congruence is not being generated that way; the spatial projections of the worldlines in the congruence are not closed orbits of a spacelike KVF.

I admit this is just an intuitive, heuristic argument; but in any case, I have checked and re-checked the part of the computation that relates to a possible ##d\tau d\chi## cross term in the metric, and I am convinced that that term vanishes. Or, to put it another way, I am convinced that the vectors ##\partial_{\tau}## and ##\partial_{\chi}## are orthogonal everywhere; this is easy to verify from the forms of the basis vectors given in post #68, and as far as I can tell, everything else is consistent with those forms of the basis vectors.
 
  • #89
I have just run the metric I derived through Maxima and confirmed that its Riemann tensor vanishes (Maxima actually couldn't quite derive this on its own, I had to check some output by hand to confirm that terms cancelled), which is good because it means it actually does describe Minkowski spacetime! Also this gives the connection coefficients in the "train frame", which I will be using to check the computations I did in the Minkowski chart. For reference, here they are (note that I have not included some which are related to the below by symmetry in the lower indexes):

$$
\Gamma^{\tau}{}_{\tau \chi} = \frac{\gamma^2}{\chi}
$$

$$
\Gamma^{\tau}{}_{\chi \psi} = \frac{\gamma^2 v}{\chi}
$$

$$
\Gamma^{\chi}{}_{\tau \tau} = \gamma^2 g^2 \chi
$$

$$
\Gamma^{\chi}{}_{\tau \psi} = \gamma^2 v g^2 \chi
$$

$$
\Gamma^{\chi}{}_{\psi \psi} = - \gamma^2 v^2 g^2 \chi
$$

$$
\Gamma^{\psi}{}_{\tau \chi} = - \frac{\gamma^2 v}{\chi}
$$

$$
\Gamma^{\psi}{}_{\chi \psi} = - \frac{\gamma^2 v^2}{\chi}
$$

The first and third of these reduce to the familiar values for Rindler coordinates if we set ##v = 0## (and therefore ##\gamma = 1##); the others all vanish, as they should. Also, the third can be used to check the proper acceleration of a train observer, whose 4-velocity is ##\hat{e}_0 = (1 / \sqrt{-g_{\tau \tau}}) \partial_{\tau}##; this gives

$$
A = \frac{\Gamma^{\chi}{}_{\tau \tau}}{- g_{\tau \tau}} \partial_{\chi} = \frac{g^2 \chi}{g^2 \chi^2 - v^2} \partial_{\chi}
$$

which agrees with what was computed in post #81 (since ##\partial_{\chi} = \hat{e}_1##).
 
  • #90
I worked through the problem using Peter's notation.

I agree with Peter's 4-velocity.

A simple derivation. In Rindelr coordinates (t,x,y), we can write the motion of the sliding block as y=vt. We can say ##t = \gamma \tau##. This gives us the 4-velocity in Rindler coodinates as

U = (##dt/d\tau, dx/d\tau, dy/d\tau##) = (##\gamma, 0, \gamma \, v##).

Converting to Minkowskii coordinates (T,X,Y) we get in those coordinates Peter's result

U = ##( dT/d\tau, dX/d\tau, dY/d\tau)## = ##( \gamma \cosh \gamma g \tau, \gamma \sinh \gamma g \tau, \gamma v)##

Integrating the four velocity we find the position vs time of the block parameterized by proper time ##\tau##

##T(\tau) = (1/g) \sinh \gamma g \tau \quad X(\tau) = (1/g) [ \cosh \gamma g \tau -1 ] \quad Y(\tau) = \gamma v \tau ##

Peter's values for ##(\hat{e}_i)## in https://www.physicsforums.com/threads/gravity-in-einsteins-train.835994/page-4#post-5254985 check out. Thus we can write

##T = (1/g) \sinh \gamma g \tau + \chi (e_1)^0 + \psi (e_2)^0##
##X = (1/g) [ \cosh \gamma g \tau -1 ] + \chi (e_1)^1 + \psi (e_2)^1##
##Y = \gamma v \tau + \chi (e_2)^1 + \psi (e_2)^2##

The notation here is slightly different than Peter's (it is the same notation as used in MTW). Here ##(e_i)^0## is the ##\partial_T## component of the basis vector ##e_i## in Peter's notation, where i=0,1,2. Similarly ##(e_i)^1## is the ##\partial_X## comonent and ##(e_i)^2## is the ##\partial_Y## component of said basis vector.

[edit for consistenh]
If this seems daunting, it's not. In vector notation we are just saying that the position at time ##\tau## is ##\vec{P_0 }+ \chi \vec{e_\chi} + \psi \vec{e_\psi}##, where ##\vec{P_0}## is the position of the block at time ##\tau##, ##\vec{e_\chi}## and ##\vec{e_\psi}## have at time ##\tau## the component values that Peter found. We have replaced the numeric indices (0,1,2) that Peter used with symbolic indices (##\tau, \chi, \psi)##. - We we multiply these purely spatial basis vector by the spatial coordinate value (##\chi, \psi##) to get the spatial displacement from the block position. Thus, by adding the initial block position ##\vec{P_0}## to the spatial displacement vector we calculate, we find the spatial position of the point specified by coordinates ##(\chi, \psi)## at time ##\tau##. This all happens on a surface of constant coordinate time ##\tau##. Of course, because of the relativity of simultaneity, a surface of constant coordinate time ##\tau## isn't a surface of constant cordinate time T, this is the reason our spatial vectors have components in the ##\partial_T## direction. This process specifies a momentarily co-moving spatial frame of reference, though it's a rotating co-moving frame and not an inertial co-moving frame.

Carrying this out yields the following equations which transform from ##\tau, \chi, \psi## coordinates to T,X,Y, coordinates:

##T = (1/g) \sinh \gamma g \tau + \chi \, \sinh \gamma g \tau + \psi \, \gamma v \cosh \gamma g \tau##
##X = (1/g) [ \cosh \gamma g \tau -1 ] + \chi \, \cosh \gamma g \tau + \psi \, \gamma v \sinh \gamma g \tau##
##Y = \gamma v \tau + \psi \, \gamma##

The remaining part requires a lot of computer algebra, plus a fair amount of manual simplification and collection of terms, but is concetually easy. We find the metric in the new coordinates by using the chain rule to find dT, dX, and dY in terms of ##d\tau##, ##d\chi##, ##d\psi##. Then we calculate the line element -dT^2 + dX^2 + dY^2

The result I get for the resulting metric is

##ds^2 = \alpha d\tau^2 + \beta (\psi d\chi- \chi d\psi) d\tau + d\chi^2 + d\psi^2##

where
\alpha =<br /> -{\frac { \left( \chi\,g+1 \right) ^{2}}{-{v}^{2}+1}}+{\frac {{v}^{2}<br /> }{-{v}^{2}+1}}+{\frac {{g}^{2}{\psi}^{2}{v}^{2}}{ \left( -{v}^{2}+1<br /> \right) ^{2}}}
\beta =\frac{ 2 g v}{1-v^2}

The physical interpretation of this is fairly straightforwards, it's just an expression for time dilation (the alpha coefficient) and rotation (the beta coefficient), with the spatial part of the metric being perfectly ordinary Euclidean space.
 
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  • #91
pervect said:
Converting to Minkowskii coordinates (T,X,Y) we get in those coordinates Peter's result

##U = ( dT/d\tau, dX/d\tau, dY/d\tau) = ( \gamma \cosh \gamma g \tau, \gamma \sinh \gamma g \tau, \gamma v)##

As I said before, this is only valid for ##\chi = 1/g##, ##\psi = 0##--i.e., . It is not valid in general. The general form of the 4-velocity is given in post #68.

pervect said:
Integrating the four velocity we find the position vs time of the block parameterized by proper time ##\tau##

##T(\tau) = (1/g) \sinh \gamma g \tau \quad X(\tau) = (1/g) [ \cosh \gamma g \tau -1 ] \quad Y(\tau) = \gamma v \tau##

This is also not valid generally. (You have also put an offset in the ##X## coordinate which I didn't put in; as I said before, I am putting the floor of the train at ##\chi = 1/g## instead of ##\chi = 0##.) The correct general transformation is given in post #68. (For your placement of the spatial origin, you would put ##\cosh - 1## instead of ##\cosh## in the definition of ##X##. I kept the spatial origin at ##\chi = 1 / g## to keep as close to the convention of standard Rindler coordinates as possible.)
 
Last edited:
  • #92
pervect said:
Carrying this out yields the following equations which transform from ##\tau, \chi, \psi## coordinates to T,X,Y, coordinates:

$$
T = (1/g) \sinh \gamma g \tau + \chi \, \sinh \gamma g \tau + \psi \, \gamma v \cosh \gamma g \tau
$$
$$
X = (1/g) [ \cosh \gamma g \tau -1 ] + \chi \, \cosh \gamma g \tau + \psi \, \gamma v \sinh \gamma g \tau
$$
$$
Y = \gamma v \tau + \psi \, \gamma
$$

Ok, but now you have to verify that this gives you the correct 4-velocity. Your formulas give

$$
\frac{\partial T}{\partial \tau} = \gamma \left[ \left( 1 + g \chi \right) \cosh \gamma g \tau + g \gamma v \psi \sinh \gamma g \tau \right]
$$
$$
\frac{\partial X}{\partial \tau} = \gamma \left[ \left( 1 + g \chi \right) \sinh \gamma g \tau + g \gamma v \psi \cosh \gamma g \tau \right]
$$

Those aren't the right formulas; they should be ##\partial T / \partial \tau = \gamma g \cosh \gamma g \tau##, ##\partial X / \partial \tau = \gamma g \sinh \gamma g \tau##. The only way to get the right formulas for ##\partial T / \partial \tau## and ##\partial X / \partial \tau##, and to have them remain valid for ##\chi \neq 1 / g## and ##\psi \neq 0##, is to have

$$
T = \chi \sinh \left[ \gamma g \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right]
$$

$$
X = \chi \cosh \left[ \gamma g \left( \tau + v \psi \right) \right]
$$

For ##\chi = 1 / g##, ##\psi = 0##, this reduces to ##T = (1 / g) \sinh \gamma g \tau##, ##X = (1 / g) \cosh \gamma g \tau##, so it is consistent with your restricted formula for the 4-velocity. But it continues to give the right formula for the 4-velocity in general (which, as I've noted, is given in post #68).
 
  • #93
pervect said:
A simple derivation. In Rindelr coordinates (t,x,y), we can write the motion of the sliding block as y=vt.

Agreed.

pervect said:
We can say ##t = \gamma \tau##.

No, we can't, at least not in general. For the center of the block (or the train), which is ##\psi = 0##, this works; but in general, a boost in the ##y## direction should give for the transform between ##(\tau, \psi)## and ##(t, y)##

$$
t = \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right)
$$
$$
y = \gamma \left( \psi + v \tau \right)
$$

This is the substitution I used to obtain my formulas for ##T##, ##X##, and ##Y## in terms of ##\tau##, ##\chi##, and ##\psi##.
 
  • #94
PeterDonis said:
Agreed.
No, we can't, at least not in general. For the center of the block (or the train), which is ##\psi = 0##, this works; but in general, a boost in the ##y## direction should give for the transform between ##(\tau, \psi)## and ##(t, y)##

$$
t = \gamma \left( \tau + v \psi \right)
$$
$$
y = \gamma \left( \psi + v \tau \right)
$$

This is the substitution I used to obtain my formulas for ##T##, ##X##, and ##Y## in terms of ##\tau##, ##\chi##, and ##\psi##.

While I would agree that my formula doesn't give a 4-velocity other than at the origin of the coordinate systems, I don't think it has to. Basically, what I'm doing is creating Fermi-Normal like coordinates, as on MTW pg 329, except that I'm not using Fermi-Walker transport to transport the basis vectors. Instead I'm allowing the spatial basis vectors to rotate, because it makes the problem tractable and also because it results in a stationary metric we can write in closed form. This is a vast improvement over a non-stationary metric that doesn't have a simple closed-form solution.

MTW said:
The observer constructs his proper reference frame (local coordinates) in a manner analogous to the Riemann normal construction. From each event ##P_0(\tau)## on his worldline, he sends out purely spatial geodesics (geodesics orthogonal to U = ##\partial P_0 / d\tau)## with an affine parameter equal to the proper length...

U is only specified at the origin of the reference frame, it's used to pick out the set of geodesics that are orthogonal to U, defining a space-like hypersurface of events "simultaneous with ##P_0##. There is no require that the spatial geodesics remain perpendicular to U in Fermi-Normal coordinates, they just start out perpendicular. In fact, the geodesic is specified by its straightness and it's starting direction, so a curve that remained perpendicular to U would not necessarily remain a geodesic. I gather that you are attempting to find curves that remain perpendicular to U - while it leads to _a_ metric, it doesn't lead to the same metric I found. I haven't checked your work, but assuming that you've not made any mistakes, it would be a perfectly valid metric , but it would not meet the goals I outlined in ttps://www.physicsforums.com/threads/gravity-in-einsteins-train.835994/page-4#post-5254985. I also think that my metric is "simpler" - its easier to find geodesics (which are straight lines in the flat space-time) than non-geodesic curves. I would argue that in a rotating frame of reference one expects the ordinary velocity away from the origin to be ##r\omega##, and not zero, which imples that one does not expect the orthogonality condition to hold away from the origin.

It would be useful to have some more papers on how "rotating frames of reference" are usually treated in terms of what sort of coordinates are usually used. The published ones I've found seem to use polar coordinates. Our problem involves acceleration and rotation, so the usual radial symmetry is broken, meaning that we really wan rotating cartesian coordinates rather than rotating polar coordinates. For non published online documents,, http://physics.stackexchange.com/qu...to-a-relativistic-rotating-frame-of-reference seems to have an approach similar to my own.
 
  • #95
Some more comments on interpreting the metric we got earlier. To recap, the block coordinates are ##(\tau, \chi, \psi)##, the inertial coordinates are (T,X,Y), and we've neglected Z because it's not interesting.

pervect said:
The result I get for the resulting metric is

##ds^2 = \alpha d\tau^2 + \beta (\psi d\chi- \chi d\psi) d\tau + d\chi^2 + d\psi^2##

where
\alpha =<br /> -{\frac { \left( \chi\,g+1 \right) ^{2}}{-{v}^{2}+1}}+{\frac {{v}^{2}<br /> }{-{v}^{2}+1}}+{\frac {{g}^{2}{\psi}^{2}{v}^{2}}{ \left( -{v}^{2}+1<br /> \right) ^{2}}}
\beta =\frac{ 2 g v}{1-v^2}

The ##\alpha## term represents overall time dilation. The ##-\gamma^2 \left( \chi\,g+1 \right) ^2+\gamma^2 v^2## terms represents the time dilation due to the linear acceleration and results in "downwards gravity". Note that when v=0 the metric coefficient of ##d\tau^2##, which we'll call ##g_{00}##, is -##(1+g\chi)^2##, as it is in the Rindler metric. If ##\chi##=0 as well, then ##g_{00} = -1##. The ##\gamma^2 g^2 v^2 \psi^2## term represents the time dilation due to the rotation and gives rise to an "outward centrifugal force". When ##\psi## becomes large enough, ##g_{00}## becomes equal to zero, making the metric singular. This happens in any rotating frame when the rotation would make an object at rest in the frame move at the speed of light.

The track that the block slides upon, as previously mentioned, is curved in these coordinates, so that the force on the block is always perpendicular to the track.

The ##\beta## cross terms are a consequence of rotation, and give rise to Coriolis forces.

I'm not going to go into the details of deriving the forces, which in GR are represented by the Christoffel symbols, except to say that one can get an intuitive idea of how the metric causes forces by considering the principle of maximal aging (sometimes more accurately called the principle of extremal aging. Various papers and books, such as Feynman's lectures and Thorne's "Exploring Black Holes" can provide more detail on this principle, as can a google search. Basically, though, in GR an objects move on a trajectory that locally maximizes proper time.

This metric I give has flat spatial slices, so if we consider the spatial volume of constant ##\tau##, surfaces of constant ##\chi## are flat planes, as are surfaces of constant ##\psi##. (I don't believe this is true in Peter's metric).

Because we are just reparameterizing the flat space-time of special relativity, we don't actually need to use the methods of GR, but the mathematical tecnhiques used here are usually taught in GR courses, even though we are applying them to a SR problem.
 
  • #96
pervect said:
the methods of GR, but the mathematical techniques used here are usually taught in GR courses, even though we are applying them to a SR problem.
Indeed this feels like a not-so-gentle introduction to GR, but it's great to witness a real problem being solved, so I'm grateful for that. Hopefully I'll eventually understand all the steps.

But perhaps, as a sanity check, could we go back to I or B level for a bit? I was thinking about this scenario:
The passengers drop another marble out of the train (or just out of the rocket if that's simpler) and point a laser beam at it. In which direction do they need to aim?
It seems that if the train rotates, they'd eventually have to point upwards? Or does the rotation get slower over time?

Peter's transformation seems OK in this experiment, however checking if his metric is consistent with the transformation is well beyond my skill.
 
  • #97
pervect said:
While I would agree that my formula doesn't give a 4-velocity other than at the origin of the coordinate systems, I don't think it has to.

I'm not sure I agree, but I think this question can be tabled for now, because even if we restrict to the "origin" (by which I assume you actually mean the worldline of the point on the train/sliding block that I am labeling ##\chi = 1/g##, ##\psi = 0##), your transformation still does not give the correct 4-velocity components, as I show in post #92. If your transformation gets that wrong, it can't be right, regardless of any other considerations.

pervect said:
Basically, what I'm doing is creating Fermi-Normal like coordinates, as on MTW pg 329, except that I'm not using Fermi-Walker transport to transport the basis vectors.

I have no issue with this; what I tried to do is similar. However, I'm not sure about your interpretation of MTW here; see below.

pervect said:
U is only specified at the origin of the reference frame, it's used to pick out the set of geodesics that are orthogonal to U, defining a space-like hypersurface of events "simultaneous with ##P_0##. There is no require that the spatial geodesics remain perpendicular to U in Fermi-Normal coordinates, they just start out perpendicular.

As I read MTW here, the requirement is that spatial geodesics must be orthogonal to U all along the worldline, not just at the point we pick as the spacetime origin of the frame. This can always be done, provided that the coordinates only have to cover a small enough "world tube" around the chosen worldline. What can't always be done is to pick spatial geodesics that are orthogonal to other worldlines in some congruence that describes the entirety of the object of interest (such as the train/sliding block), not just the single worldline we are using to construct the coordinates

In the case under discussion, spatial geodesics are in fact orthogonal to the worldline I have labeled as ##\chi = 1 / g##, ##\psi = 0##, everywhere along that worldline. But they are not orthogonal to other worldlines in the congruence (worldlines with either a different ##chi## or a different ##\psi##).

pervect said:
the geodesic is specified by its straightness and it's starting direction, so a curve that remained perpendicular to U would not necessarily remain a geodesic

Yes; in fact, I haven't checked to see whether integral curves of my ##\hat{e}_1## and ##\hat{e}_2## are geodesics everywhere. I think they are, but I'll have to check to see for sure.

pervect said:
I gather that you are attempting to find curves that remain perpendicular to U

Only along the worldline labeled ##\chi = 1/g##, ##\psi = 0##. Not elsewhere. Indeed, since the congruence has nonzero vorticity, it is not hypersurface orthogonal, so there are no curves that remain orthogonal to U everywhere.

pervect said:
Some more comments on interpreting the metric we got earlier.

As I said above, the coordinate transformation you used to obtain this metric can't be right, since it gives the wrong 4-velocity components for the restricted case you are considering.
 
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  • #98
pervect said:
Because we are just reparameterizing the flat space-time of special relativity

In addition to my previous comments on this metric (the one quoted in post #95), there is another issue: I have run the metric through Maxima, and it computes a nonzero riemann tensor (actually all of the formulas it spit out were very complicated, so the easiest one to check to verify that it was not zero was the scalar curvature). So this metric cannot be describing flat Minkowski spacetime.
 
  • #99
pervect said:
Thus we can write

$$
T = (1/g) \sinh \gamma g \tau + \chi (e_1)^0 + \psi (e_2)^0
$$
$$
X = (1/g) [ \cosh \gamma g \tau -1 ] + \chi (e_1)^1 + \psi (e_2)^1
$$
$$
Y = \gamma v \tau + \chi (e_2)^1 + \psi (e_2)^2
$$

This seems to me to be the point at which the logic leading to your coordinate transformation goes wrong. You are assuming here that the ##0## and ##1## components of ##(e_1)## and ##(e_2)## are not functions of ##\tau##. (You are also assuming that there is no ##\chi## or ##\psi## dependence in the ##\sinh## and ##\cosh## terms.) Only on that assumption do these formulas match the integrals of the 4-velocity that you give, since those integrals only have one term each that depends on ##\tau##. But the final transformation equations you derive have the terms corresponding to ##(e_1)^0##, ##(e_2)^0##, etc. depending on ##\tau## (because they have factors of ##\sinh \gamma g \tau## or ##\cosh \gamma g \tau## in them)--as they must, because the ##0## and ##1## components of ##(e_1)## and ##(e_2)## do in fact depend on ##\tau##. So your derivation ends up with formulas that violate an assumption made at the start.

In fact, if you integrate components of U with respect to ##\tau##, you must allow the coefficients, and also the arguments of functions like ##\cosh## and ##\sinh##, to be functions of ##\chi## and/or ##\psi##. So, for example, to get ##U^T = \gamma \cosh \gamma g \tau##, the correct general integral would be of the form

$$
T = f(\chi) k(\psi) \frac{1}{g} \sinh \left[ \gamma g \tau + j(\chi) + h(\psi) \right]
$$

with other possible terms that are not functions of ##\tau##; but the above is the only possible function of ##\tau## that can occur in the integral. To get the correct 4-velocity, we then must have ##f(\chi) = k(\psi) = 1## and ##j(\chi) = h(\psi) = 0## at the values of ##\chi## and ##\psi## that describe the worldline we are using to define ##U##. I achieved this by setting ##f(\chi) = g \chi##, ##j(\chi) = 0## (because it turns out we don't need any ##\chi## dependence in the arguments of the hyperbolic funcions), ##k(\psi) = 1## (because we don't need any ##\psi## dependence in the coefficient) and ##h(\psi) = \gamma g v \psi## and labeling the chosen worldline with the values ##\chi = 1 / g## and ##\psi = 0##. If you want to label that worldline by ##\chi = 0##, then you would make ##f(\chi) = 1 + g \chi## instead.

Similar logic gives the most general integral of ##U^X## as

$$
X = f(\chi) k(\psi) \frac{1}{g} \cosh \left[ \gamma g \tau + j(\chi) + h(\psi) \right]
$$

plus possible terms that don't depend on ##\tau##, but again, this is the only possible ##\tau## dependent term.
 
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  • #100
PeterDonis said:
In addition to my previous comments on this metric (the one quoted in post #95), there is another issue: I have run the metric through Maxima, and it computes a nonzero riemann tensor (actually all of the formulas it spit out were very complicated, so the easiest one to check to verify that it was not zero was the scalar curvature). So this metric cannot be describing flat Minkowski spacetime.

I just got through reinstalling (disk crash) Grtensor and the old version of maple that (appears to be) needed to run it. I found a flat Riemann tensor. I latexified the line element I used in Grtensor just to be sure there were not any transcription errors - it should be the same as my post however.

(-(chi*g+1)^2/(1-v^2) + v^2/(1-v^2) + g^2*psi^2*v^2 /(1-v^2)^2)*d[tau]^2 + (2*g*v/(1-v^2))* (psi*d[chi]-chi*d[psi])*d[tau] + d[chi]^2 + d[psi]^2;<br />

Calculating the Rimeann, I got the following
Covariant Riemann
R(dn,dn,dn,dn) = All components are zero
 
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