Schools What is the purpose of a college education?

[smashbrohamme]

I didnt read pages 1.5-4 because this thread was simply getting derailed.

I will tell you my purpose of getting a college eduction, to shove it down the throats of people who looked down on me during my teenage years.

I was a kid who goofed off in high school, so many family members and people around me wrote me off as a potential loser and idiot.

It was a long hard road but I eventually went back to school full-time at age 22, and I turn 25 tommorow. Since returning I have accomplished a AAS degree in CAD with a 3.9 GPA, Only B was in Macro Economics...go figure.

I am currently majoring in EE in a transfer program and I am sustaining a 3.8+ GPA in the good ol engineering classes.

On a side note I have always wanted to be in the electrical field, as a boy I wondered what it would be like to work with electricity.

By trade I have been an industrial electrician for 5 years, recently promoted as a electrical/mechanical designer with my company due to my success in school.

But at the end of the day...there is only one true thing that fuels that fire...people who tell you, "you can't do it"...oh man its like crack.

 

[chiro]

But at the end of the day...there is only one true thing that fuels that fire...people who tell you, "you can't do it"...oh man its like crack.

I'm glad you are proving your naysayers wrong since one thing I can't stand is people putting down other people in a non-constructive manner whether it be based on personal insecurities or any other reason.

Having said that, I would caution you to remain as humble as you can when you end up "making it there". You've put in the work, and you are reaping what you sow, but just remember that we are all human and we all get emotional.

If these people are willing to listen, try and educate them. By this I do not mean to force your opinion down their throats (even if you are right anyway), but just give them enough info so that they can make a choice to at least acknowledge what you had to say and then take that into account. Who knows you might be right or you might be wrong, but chances are you will be right and wrong since life is never so black and white.

One reason I am telling you the above is because since you want to be an engineer and also be in a knowledge related profession with many grey area decisions to be made, you need to keep open minded, even to the people that are telling you "it will never work". It might even be that the senior engineer you work for is telling you this. Can you picture a senior engineer telling a high level executive "it can't work" and then have the executive go on to say "You WILL make it work. Have a finished summary on my desk on Monday".

So yes congratulations on your achievements and I'm sure you'll have plenty more, but I advise you to remain humble as you possibly can for your future endeavors.

 

[Char. Limit]

You do have to remember, that sometimes when someone tells you "you can't do it", you really CAN'T do it. For example, you can't trisect a general angle with only straightedge and compass.

 

[wukunlin]

You do have to remember, that sometimes when someone tells you "you can't do it", you really CAN'T do it. For example, you can't trisect a general angle with only straightedge and compass.

out of curiosity, what would be the best way to deal with such situations?

my instinct would be like "hmmm, I don't see how this is possible since [insert logical reasons]"
but people don't always see reason

 

[Nano-Passion]

Some people go for college with the intent of a job. Others go to quench their thirst for knowledge. Personally, I am proud to be part of the latter.

 

[Rayquesto]

I think the purpose of a college education is being able to have people skills and being able to communicate with people that will have the same aspirations as you. Basically, if you teach yourself everything without a college education, you will have less self-esteem to be able to work with others with the same or similar job. My engineering teacher just told us that the kind of skills you need most for a job are computation and communication. They are just as good as the other. Plus if you have enough esteem, getting interviewed will be easier in general. SO, yea, I think It's mostly a self-esteem component, which I don't think you get if you choose to do strictly independent studying.

 

[chiro]

You do have to remember, that sometimes when someone tells you "you can't do it", you really CAN'T do it. For example, you can't trisect a general angle with only straightedge and compass.

Even if that is so, it's important for everyone to arrive at the answer in the right way.

For example if you want to prove something is true, it's a much better way to assume something is false and find a hole in this way of thinking than to just assume it is true. If you just assume something is true straight away, it doesn't really set the scene for a good constructive debate.

Mathematicians do this on a regular basis, but a lot of people do not and they start off with their premise in their minds that "they are simply right" and in this kind of environment no-one gets anywhere.

Instead it is better to assume that the other person is right and then find some kind of contradiction so that they can spell it out to the other person.

Also another thing is that humans, even if they are mathematicians or scientists, tend to be emotional. It's genuinely very hard for anyone to be completely unemotional and completely unegotistical, especially in the face of criticism. If you have had a belief that you have clung to for most of your life, you're not going to let it go lying down in a most likely scenario.

This gets even more exacerbated when you get two scientists who work in the same kind of field who have conflicting theories based on observations that both scientists have been personally involved in. As an observation that I have found, most things are both right and wrong and not just right or wrong. With something like mathematics, this is more of the exception rather than the rule when it comes to truth, because in math we generally define the rules whereas in other circumstances, we don't.

It would be nice if people would use the approach that mathematicians use (especially religious and political bodies) but I am not going to hold my breath for it to happen any time "soon".

 

[CheckMate]

Some people go for college with the intent of a job. Others go to quench their thirst for knowledge. Personally, I am proud to be part of the latter.

Why would you have to pay in order to get "knowledge"?

I would rather get a degree that would guarantee a miserable but financially rewarding job rather than get a degree and get a miserable job that doesn't pay the bills.

 

[Nano-Passion]

Why would you have to pay in order to get "knowledge".

I would rather get a degree that would guarantee a good career and get a job not of my preference but financially rewarding rather than get a degree and get a job that I hate and it just pays the bills.

So you would recommend someone trying to understand up to PhD level work through-self study? And then being able to make meaningful contributions to the mathematics and scientific world?

Of course you would rather get a miserable but financially rewarding job then a miserable and non-rewarding one. Where is the third option?? I would rather get a degree, get a job that I love and be able to live comfortably. $40k is comfortable to me. You work 1/3 of your life, stress another third of your life ( attempted leisure time ) sleep the other third of your life. Heck I want to enjoy all three-thirds!

 

[CheckMate]

So you would recommend someone trying to understand up to PhD level work through-self study? And then being able to make meaningful contributions to the mathematics and scientific world?

Of course you would rather get a miserable but financially rewarding job then a miserable and non-rewarding one. Where is the third option?? I would rather get a degree, get a job that I love and be able to live comfortably. $40k is comfortable to me. You work 1/3 of your life, stress another third of your life ( attempted leisure time ) sleep the other third of your life. Heck I want to enjoy all three-thirds!

I can understand the path to a PhD. You need proof of an academic education before entering graduate school.

I was referring to getting an undergraduate degree just to get "knowledge" without a PhD as a goal.

Trust me, there is way too many people that get an undergraduate degree and end up flippin burgers because they were lied to by universities that their degree would guarantee them a good salary. As a matter of fact, in these hard economic times, 40k is not enough when you have to pay insurance and loans.

You could easily be making 40k$ without a degree.

 

[Nano-Passion]

I can understand the path to a PhD. You need proof of an academic education before entering graduate school.

I was referring to getting an undergraduate degree just to get "knowledge" without a PhD as a goal.

Trust me, there is way too many people that get an undergraduate degree and end up flippin burgers because they were lied to by universities that their degree would guarantee them a good salary. As a matter of fact, in these hard economic times, 40k is not enough when you have to pay insurance and loans.

You could easily be making 40k$ without a degree.

I see your point. I was referring to going to college for the love of knowledge, not for the (sometimes) misled "knowledge" in getting a job.

I disagree that 40k isn't enough, if you know how to budget yourself it isn't so bad at all. You have approximately $3333/month. The numbers seem to add up to a comfortable yet modest living. I don't see what is so terrible about that. Physicists don't come out with much loans at all. If you are a med major on the other hand then paying off loans are a major factor.

 

[CheckMate]

I see your point. I was referring to going to college for the love of knowledge, not for the (sometimes) misled "knowledge" in getting a job.

I disagree that 40k isn't enough, if you know how to budget yourself it isn't so bad at all. You have approximately $3333/month. The numbers seem to add up to a comfortable yet modest living. I don't see what is so terrible about that. Physicists don't come out with much loans at all. If you are a med major on the other hand then paying off loans are a major factor.

I did a mistake by assuming that the cost of a physics degree would be somewhat around the same as an EE degree.

However, I still think that a physics degree should be free when it comes to tuition. I am sick and tired of universities lying to prospective students in order to sucking every single penny and credit out of their pockets.

 

[Nano-Passion]

I did a mistake by assuming that the cost of a physics degree would be somewhat around the same as an EE degree.

However, I still think that a physics degree should be free when it comes to tuition. I am sick and tired of universities lying to prospective students in order to sucking every single penny and credit out of their pockets.

Sounds like you would be more accustomed to a social government rather than a capital one. I would personally love to get out of America and live under a social government. It looks to be a less stressful environment. You will know what I'm talking about if you've watched Michael Moore's films such as 'Sicko'. But hey, looks can be deceiving, I don't have a deep knowledge of this subject.

 

[CheckMate]

I don't have any problem with capitalism. I believe the economic system should be a mixture of capitalism and socialism. Some things people need should be covered by the government if and only if the economy is strong (done by capitalism). These things should be certain areas of education (everything before graduate), necessary food,clothing, housing and so on.

I haven't watched Michael Moore's Sicko but I do agree with a lot with him when it comes to America's economic issues.

I live in Canada: social government, free healthcare and other benefits, but rising tuition costs and heavy taxes. Free healthcare is great but we have a rising unhealthy population and not enough docs---> rising health care costs--->more old people living and not dying yet---> rising health care costs----> more taxes----> potential loss of jobs or migration

 

[Vanadium 50]

0 Trust me, there is way too many people that get an undergraduate degree and end up flippin burgers because they were lied to by universities that their degree would guarantee them a good salary.

Trust but verify. Please provide evidence of one of these guarantees.

 

[CheckMate]

Trust but verify. Please provide evidence of one of these guarantees.

Most university websites. Most speeches by university recruiters.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/19/university-of-phoenix-rec_n_687681.html

That's just 1 example.

 

[Vanadium 50]

Most university websites.

Please cite one.

Most speeches by university recruiters.

Please cite one from a non-profit university - like the majority of them in this country.

 

[CheckMate]

I did not claim that unis are for profit. I said their goal was to get as many students as they can, in order to cover their own expenses.

I can find a source, but after many journalistic investigations, universities have changed their websites. What I claimed is what I have read back when I was a high school student and I cannot cite what recruiters said. I don't have the conversation on tape.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I see. So you can't support your inflammatory claim. (Apart from one statement from a for-profit university).

In the future, it's good to be able to back up what you say before you say it - particularly something that accuses a large number of people of fraud.

 

[CheckMate]

Alright you got me, I made the mistake to generalize (assuming that 1 for profit university= others).

Regardless, you can't deny that there is an increasing number of folks with undergraduate degrees working in a job that offers a lower salary than expected.

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Alright you got me, I made the mistake to generalize (assuming that 1 for profit university= others).

Regardless, you can't deny that there is an increasing number of folks with undergraduate degrees working in a job that offers a lower salary than expected.

Most definitely. I know people personally. One guy is working at Macy's and is considering going back to school for nursing because the first time around was just a waste of time. Another kid started out with nursing then switched to catering and now times are hard for them. They are dependent on their parents more than before they left for college.

We are getting to a point where certain degrees just don't pay anymore. Why go to school for many years then I can't find work with what I went to school for? Waste of time don't you think?

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Some people go for college with the intent of a job. Others go to quench their thirst for knowledge. Personally, I am proud to be part of the latter.

You don't have to go to college to "quench your thirst for knowledge". Ever hear of the internet or the library?

Here's a dialogue you from the movie Good Will Hunting:

Will: See the sad thing about a guy like you, is in about 50 years you’re going to start doin' some thinkin' on your own and you’re going to come up with the fact that there are two certainties in life. One, don't do that. And two, you dropped a hundred and fifty grand on a f****g education you coulda' got for a dollar fifty in late charges at the Public Library.
Clark: Yeah, but I will have a degree, and you'll be serving my kids fries at a drive-thru on our way to a skiing trip.

Both characters are right in their own way. There's a wealth of knowledge that can be acquired outside of college for a very low price. But you see, education isn't just a paper that says so and so has completed x amount of years of study in a specific field/subject. I don't have to ever set foot in an ivy league school building to be "well educated". But education and the school system today has changed. College is about learning but learning goes beyond math, science, etc., how many college's promote the idea of "preparing you for life / the real world"? What does that mean?

 

[Edin_Dzeko]

Guys, ultimately, we should first define what education really is. Once we define education then we can determine what constitutes a good, bad, above average education and the purpose of education.

Second of all, if you look at the history of universities (medieval times) you will see that the purpose of college goes beyond "education" in the sense that people are arguing about here. It's not just about math, science, etc., think about the idea of leaving mom and dad around the age of 17/18 and being on your own for most of the year. What's that supposed to train you for / prepare you for?

 

[Nano-Passion]

You don't have to go to college to "quench your thirst for knowledge". Ever hear of the internet or the library?

Do you think the internet and the library would suffice for PhD level work? I am talking about the deep and complex knowledge that is at the forefront of math and science. Not the schaum's outline for dummies. Or whatever they call it nowadays.

 

[Rayquesto]

I would agree that a PhD would require not only research, but acquired knowledge and mostly outside experience. I'm only a freshman in college, but I would think that is true!

 

[GregJ]

Well, to the question of this thread: "What is the purpose of a college education?". Well let's first see how they advertise themselves to prospective students.

1) To improve career prospects
2) To pursue a vocation
3) To earn a larger salary (often compared to the "lower" incomes of non-graduates).
4) To develop employable skills
5) To build self-confidence, independence & responsibility
6) To Study a subject which is enjoyed

Some "facts" used by universities:
1) Only 6% of graduates are unemployed after 6 months.
2) According to the Government, by 2010 50% of all jobs will require someone educated to degree level.
3) It is estimated that over a lifetime the average graduate would have earned almost 50% more than the average non-graduate.
4) Around 7 million of the jobs expected to be filled by 2012 are in occupations most likely to demand graduates.
5) Research supports the fact that employers are increasingly seeking graduates.As you may see, most colleges/universities get sold to students playing on their fears of the "real world" outside high/secondary school (that they will not get a job, earn little money, etc.). Not that I disagree with going to college/university at all, it's just that a lot of students go for the wrong reasons.

Which leads to my conclusion, "What is the purpose of a college education?": For the colleges/universities (perhaps the government too if on a government student loan) to make more money. Of course this applies only to a certain group of people. To others, the purpose of college/uni is to get an education to be used in a specific profession/career or purely to learn a subject of interest (and they go into college/uni knowing that from the start).
***Edit: How could I forget. Some people go just to have wild parties.***Sources:
http://www.cardiff.ac.uk/simplyparents/whygotouni/index.html
http://www.kent.ac.uk/secondary/pdf/tips_whyuni.pdf
http://www.port.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/parentspages/whygotouniversity/

 

[Rayquesto]

"Well, to the question of this thread: "What is the purpose of a college education?". Well let's first see how they advertise themselves to prospective students.

1) To improve career prospects
2) To pursue a vocation
3) To earn a larger salary (often compared to the "lower" incomes of non-graduates).
4) To develop employable skills
5) To build self-confidence, independence & responsibility
6) To Study a subject which is enjoyed

Some "facts" used by universities:
1) Only 6% of graduates are unemployed after 6 months.
2) According to the Government, by 2010 50% of all jobs will require someone educated to degree level.
3) It is estimated that over a lifetime the average graduate would have earned almost 50% more than the average non-graduate.
4) Around 7 million of the jobs expected to be filled by 2012 are in occupations most likely to demand graduates.
5) Research supports the fact that employers are increasingly seeking graduates.


As you may see, most colleges/universities get sold to students playing on their fears of the "real world" outside high/secondary school (that they will not get a job, earn little money, etc.). Not that I disagree with going to college/university at all, it's just that a lot of students go for the wrong reasons.

Which leads to my conclusion, "What is the purpose of a college education?": For the colleges/universities (perhaps the government too if on a government student loan) to make more money. Of course this applies only to a certain group of people. To others, the purpose of college/uni is to get an education to be used in a specific profession/career or purely to learn a subject of interest (and they go into college/uni knowing that from the start).
***Edit: How could I forget. Some people go just to have wild parties.***"

I completely agree! Some decide to achieve these goals in other ways more independently, but it's much more easier to achieve through going to college. When money becomes an nuissance, that's when they try to find ways around those goals by avoiding paying for college, going on the internet, studying at the library during own time, and doing other things. College, none the less, is the best method to achieve those things hands down. I don't think there is anything better than going to college to achieve all those goals. It's the best bang for you buck, you time, etc.

 

[twofish-quant]

You don't have to go to college to "quench your thirst for knowledge". Ever hear of the internet or the library?

Yes. The internet is great at providing raw data, but its incredibly unorganized, and there are things that you just can't learn by reading about it. One example which comes from another thread is how to handle yourself in a job interview. You have to do it to learn out to do it.

Libraries are useful, but it's really, really expensive to put together a well run research library, and one of the big problems that I have is that I don't have easy access to a research library.

Also the important thing to learn is people, and universities end up putting people in the same room.

Even the free stuff isn't free. Google is a multi-billion corporation, and over the last several decades tens of billions of dollars have gone into putting together the internet. A lot of this is paid for by advertising and tax dollars, but the fact is that someone has to pay. It may not be you, and it probably shouldn't be you, but someone has to pay.

There's a wealth of knowledge that can be acquired outside of college for a very low price.

And there is knowledge that really can't be. Most of the really important bits of knowledge involves interacting with people, and people are busy, so you end up having to pay them for their time.

I don't have to ever set foot in an ivy league school building to be "well educated".

It helps a lot. A lot of the people that run the world have degrees from Harvard, and if you spend some time on campus, you learn about the psychology of people that go to Harvard. This is not a minor thing to figure out.

Also in order to get anywhere you have to have friends and connections, and college is one place where you end up with friends and connections.

College is about learning but learning goes beyond math, science, etc., how many college's promote the idea of "preparing you for life / the real world"? What does that mean?

They do. One of the important functions of colleges is "young adult daycare." You end up learning about how to handle sex, drugs, alcohol, and human relationships in an environment in which you won't do permanent damage. Suppose you party all night, and you get totally sick. In college, you miss a class, and you learn not to do that again (or you learn to do that again), and nothing bad happens. If you are in a family, you could get fired, and very bad things can happen to you.

 

[twofish-quant]

Please cite one.

start with

http://nber.nber.org/~peat/PapersFolder/Papers/SG/NSF.html

and then go to

http://www.phds.org/the-big-picture/scientist-shortages/

Granted, none of them are recent, and around 2007 people stopped talking about shortages in skilled labor, but I think it's a bad thing to try to rewrite history and pretend that people weren't talking about as late as 2005.

Also, putting things down the "memory hole" is something that you'd expect from George Orwell. One thing that worries me a bit about everything going online is that it makes it easier for people to pretend that they didn't say things that they did.

You can say "we'll we didn't promise *you* a job" but that's the sort of thing that I'd expect from used car dealers and bond salesman, and not from people that are supposed to be 'in loco parentis'.

 

[twofish-quant]

Guys, ultimately, we should first define what education really is. Once we define education then we can determine what constitutes a good, bad, above average education and the purpose of education.

And one thing that I think you'll quickly figure out is that "we" will never agree, and waiting until "we" agree means that nothing will get done.

I happen to have a personal definition of what it means to be educated. It works for me, and if you like it/hate it/are indifferent to it, then that's fine. For me, part of being educated is to figure out where and how I got my ideas about what it means to be educated.

Second of all, if you look at the history of universities (medieval times) you will see that the purpose of college goes beyond "education" in the sense that people are arguing about here. It's not just about math, science, etc., think about the idea of leaving mom and dad around the age of 17/18 and being on your own for most of the year. What's that supposed to train you for / prepare you for?

Something that you quickly figure out when you investigate things is that it turns out that some things happened by historical accident. If you talk to people in my father's generation, it was expected that you'd leave home around 17/18 and join the army, which also fulfils the function of "young adult daycare." Around the 1960's, that became unpopular in the United States, so you had the rise of colleges that filled the same social role.