What's the energy-spread of the quantum Universe state?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the energy state of the universe from a quantum mechanics perspective, particularly focusing on whether the universe can be considered in an energy eigenstate and the implications of such a state on dynamic variables. Participants explore concepts related to energy spread, entropy, and the evolution of the quantum state of the universe.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants argue that if the universe were in an energy eigenstate, the time derivative of any dynamic variable would be zero, suggesting that the universe is not in such a state.
  • Others propose that the increasing entropy of the universe indicates a low-entropy state in the past, raising questions about how this state originated.
  • One participant questions what laws or equations govern the evolution of the quantum state of the universe, emphasizing that entropy is just one property of the state.
  • Some discuss the concept of non-stationary state solutions in toy models like the harmonic oscillator, questioning how these ideas apply to larger systems like the universe.
  • There are inquiries about the applicability of quantum mechanics (QM) to systems not prepared in laboratories and whether preparation must be conducted by trained physicists.
  • Participants note that QM can describe the universe, suggesting that if the expected value of energy is constant, the universe must be a superposition of states rather than an eigenstate.
  • Some emphasize the distinction between expected values derived from ensembles of systems versus single measurements, highlighting the challenges in applying QM concepts to the universe as a whole.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express multiple competing views regarding the nature of the universe's quantum state, with no consensus reached on whether it can be considered an energy eigenstate or how to appropriately apply QM principles to the universe.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in measuring the universe as a whole and the challenges in applying QM to macroscopic phenomena, indicating a dependence on definitions and unresolved questions regarding measurement in quantum terms.

  • #61
kimbyd said:
ated quantum system in a mixed state

How can an isolated quantum system be in a mixed state? Again, I understand that you can write down such a state mathematically. But how does it make sense physically?
 
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  • #62
PeterDonis said:
Mathematically, yes, as I have already said in response to @kimbyd. Math is not the same as physics. Physically, I do not think these solutions are reasonable for closed systems, for reasons I have already explained.
Ok let's take the simplest quantum Hamiltonian, zero potential energy everywhere.

Then form a wavepacket.

Wavepackets can exist in isolated closed systems.

Yet they are superpositions of energy levels
 
  • #63
Robert Shaw said:
Ok let's take the simplest quantum Hamiltonian, zero potential energy everywhere.

Then form a wavepacket.

Wavepackets can exist in isolated closed systems.

Yet they are superpositions of energy levels
Reality is too complex for physics to model.

Football, a game of football, obeys the laws of physics. Physicists cannot model it however, not quantum nor classical.

Knowledge is the problem. We don't know enough about almost everything to write equations.

Look around you. Mostly complex molecules. Air is mostly molecules.

That's for engineers who do a great job using approximations of physics.
 
  • #64
Robert Shaw said:
Reality is too complex for physics to model.

Football, a game of football, obeys the laws of physics. Physicists cannot model it however, not quantum nor classical.

Knowledge is the problem. We don't know enough about almost everything to write equations.

Look around you. Mostly complex molecules. Air is mostly molecules.

That's for engineers who do a great job using approximations of physics.
Closed systems are idealisations.

Reality seldom approximates to a closed system.

On rare occasions real systems can be created that approximate to an idealised closed system.

Our knowledge of such systems is from the mathematics of the idealised closed system, for which we can write down equations.

Quantum physics textbooks are mostly concerned with closed systems. They tend to focus on eigenstates because they are mathematically simple and good for teaching purposes. They say a little about superpositions - the wavepacket, the Gaussian superposition of oscillator states, etc. but these are more difficult mathematically so get limited coverage.
 
  • #65
Why don't you write it all in ONE post? There is edit button.
 
  • #66
@Robert Shaw you are simply repeating your position without responding to what anyone else has said. That is not going to lead to a productive discussion.

Thread closed.
 
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