Where Does an Object Move in Space?

[fredreload]

When an object move in space, what decides where it moves to? For instance there's no rule saying you can't move from 0 to 3, but have to move from 0 to 1 simply because 1 is next to 0 in terms of distance.

 

[WannabeNewton]

I'm not entirely sure what your question is but I believe what you are asking about is the principle of stationary action: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_least_action

 

[fredreload]

I'm looking more for a science proof has to do with the particle movement. The smallest distance is known as Planck Length as someone mentioned. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length) So if you move through Planck Length from point A to point B, what decides where you show up when you hit point B, because with Planck Length being the smallest distance it seems like you've skipped this distance and ended up in a new place. Does movement of any length and size comes down to this as a minimum?

 

[sophiecentaur]

I'm looking more for a science proof has to do with the particle movement. The smallest distance is known as Planck Length as someone mentioned. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Planck_length) So if you move through Planck Length from point A to point B, what decides where you show up when you hit point B, because with Planck Length being the smallest distance it seems like you've skipped this distance and ended up in a new place. Does movement of any length and size comes down to this as a minimum?

Don't forget - "you" are a lot bigger than the Planck length.

 

[mikeph]

There are no "proofs"; the physical interpretation of the Planck length still seems to depend on what theory you subscribe to. But I think it is important to note that under a common interpretation, it is defined as the shortest "measurable" length, not the shortest length.

 

[CWatters]

I'm no expert on this but...

It sounds like the OP is assuming particles can only occupy positions that are on a plank scale grid. Are there theories that suggest this might be the case?

 

[BenG549]

When an object move in space, what decides where it moves to? For instance there's no rule saying you can't move from 0 to 3, but have to move from 0 to 1 simply because 1 is next to 0 in terms of distance.

Well for an object to be moving it must have some kinetic energy*. This describes the work needed to accelerate a body, the direction of travel will be dependant on how the body received this energy i.e. if some one pushed it, the direction of travel and where it ends up will be in the direction of the applied force i.e. the push.

As for the second part of this question I'm not sure what you mean by selecting arbitrary numbers and saying there is no rule against moving from one to the other. If you are using them as a measure of displacement from a starting point, in meters say, then there is a general rule that you have to move 1, 2 meters before you can have moved 3, unless you found a suitable method of teleportation.

Have I misunderstood the question?

* http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinetic_energy

 

[sophiecentaur]

I'm no expert on this but...

It sounds like the OP is assuming particles can only occupy positions that are on a plank scale grid. Are there theories that suggest this might be the case?

This brings in the question of the size of the smallest particle. Is a particle of 'zero' size really to be regarded as less than the Planck length?

Whatever the answer is to the above, I think that Space must be assumed to be monotonic - at least when considering three dimensional space. But when the multidimensional space of String Theory is brought into it, this may not be right.

 

[Bhumble]

Or are you referring to the discrete nature of energies and confusing this with the inability of a particle to stay at a location with not being able to move through it?

Let's say there is some minimum movement for a particle based on a discrete energy that causes it to move some distance from A to B, as it's semi stable able to occupy those locations space. That does not indicate that it did not pass through an infinite number of possible locations in between.

My interpretation from quantum mechanics is that there are a number of discrete locations that could be inhabited by a particle but I believe this is the nature of the particle not the nature of space and motion itself.
Although if someone wouldn't mind explaining the physical path followed by a particle during tunneling.

 

[fredreload]

I understand the object is supposed to move in the direction of the applied force, I'm just not sure how the object ends up at that position after the displacement. To me it seems like every movement made is going through multiples of Planck Length, and since movement is possible, there must be a smooth transition for an object to travel from one location to the next. Like something is telling you, after you move away from point A, you will end up in point B. I guess my question would be what goes on between Planck Length that displaces you to the next position.

 

[ZapperZ]

I understand the object is supposed to move in the direction of the applied force, I'm just not sure how the object ends up at that position after the displacement. To me it seems like every movement made is going through multiples of Planck Length, and since movement is possible, there must be a smooth transition for an object to travel from one location to the next. Like something is telling you, after you move away from point A, you will end up in point B. I guess my question would be what goes on between Planck Length that displaces you to the next position.

Are you aware that you're asking for what is going on for something that (i) is hypothetical and (ii) no one has observed/detected before? There's a distinct possibility that this "Planck Length" might not even exist the way it has been envisioned. Wouldn't such a discussion be a total waste of time if that were to happen?

Zz.

 

[Kyxha]

When a paritlce moves from A -> B is its motion broken into finitely many small jumps as I think the OP is suggesting, or is the motion more accurately described as a smooth transition with no possible way to break it down into steps?
Is there/Has there been a way to prove this theoretically one way or another?

 

[Kyxha]

Maybe it's easier to think of a probability density instead of a point particle. So then you can invision a continuous smooth shift in the most likely place for the particle to exist, because I guess you can assign an infinite number of points in space with a probability function.

 

[BruceW]

To me it seems like every movement made is going through multiples of Planck Length, and since movement is possible, there must be a smooth transition for an object to travel from one location to the next.

The idea of the Planck length is that you could not use quantum mechanics (as it is now) to describe motion on a length of scale smaller than the Planck length. You would need some kind of theory of quantum gravity, or some other extension which they haven't thought up yet. But this doesn't necessarily mean that motion occurs in 'steps' of the Planck length.

 

[arul_k]

When an object move in space, what decides where it moves to? For instance there's no rule saying you can't move from 0 to 3, but have to move from 0 to 1 simply because 1 is next to 0 in terms of distance.

For a single object in space, without any fixed point of reference, does displacement/distance have any meaning? So the question is what does motion mean to the object itself.

BTW you may be interested in reading up on Zeno's paradox...

 

[fredreload]

After some thought, I think force decides the direction the object is supposed to travel, but not the destination. Since force remain constant at all places, but the place you travel to is different. So does that mean the space you're in uses force to find the destination you travel to? And does bending space generate a force in return. Just some thought, hopefully I'm not off topic.

 

[BruceW]

yeah, and no. I would agree with some of the stuff you're saying. (Talking about non-quantum physics now). Force is the instantaneous rate of change of momentum, so the force tells us how the motion is changing in that instant. I don't understand what you mean by "Since force remain constant at all places, but the place you travel to is different." Do you mean that if the force is constant, then the place you travel to can still be different? This is because force only tells us the second differential of position, so if we know the constant force, then there are still two (vector) unknowns, which correspond to initial position and initial velocity.

 

[fredreload]

What you said is correct, I'm just wondering where the information of the destination is held. The idea about moving object with force is credited to BenG549 and the direction is through someone I met online. I think I'll stop here. There might be more questions in the future.

 

[uperkurk]

I think the OP means if you were to roll a single atom along a desk for example. You lay a (planck length measuring stick) on the desk next to it. Then when you roll the atom, it has to move in the form;

1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 ect Planck length at a time.

What is the law that governs this movement? Why can the atom not jump a few spaces. This is what the OP is asking I think.

Well if the atom did jump a few spaces, that would be teleportation. What law tells the atom it must move in this fashion? I do not know if such a law exists... I think it most certainly exists though otherwise atoms would teleport micro-distances all the time I would think.

 

[fredreload]

Right but as soon as the atom moves from stationary it should make a jump since the atom's shape doesn't change. And it jumps from the center of a sphere by its radius according to the direction of the force. Then again there might be other explanation if the atom does not "jump".

 

[BruceW]

Then when you roll the atom, it has to move in the form;
1 - 2 - 3 - 4 - 5 ect Planck length at a time.

I am pretty sure that this is not correct.

 

[Khashishi]

When an object moves from point A to point B, unless you actually make a measurement of the object in an intervening point, you can't say for certain that it has passed through this intervening point. According to Dr. Feynman, you have to take into account ALL possible routes connecting point A to point B to calculate the probability for the object to end up at B. The exact path is unknowable and unphysical, so you might as well say that the object jumps from A to B.

 

[MikeGomez]

After some thought, I think force decides the direction the object is supposed to travel, but not the destination. Since force remain constant at all places, but the place you travel to is different. So does that mean the space you're in uses force to find the destination you travel to? And does bending space generate a force in return. Just some thought, hopefully I'm not off topic.

You are on the right track, but remember that the force is external to the particle. As you are considering the particle itself and not the external force, you should think of it in terms of the energy/momentum of the particle.

The force applied to the particle imparts energy/momentum to the particle. This includes both the amount of energy as well as the direction. So now the particle has the new energy/momentum as contributed by the force, in addition to what it had before.

Now how the particle uses it’s energy/momentum (with it’s direction information) to evaluate where to exist in the next instant in time is an unsolved problem in physics.

There are many opinions, and I hope this discussion continues to get some more ideas.
[Edit] After sending this post it occurred to me that it seems against the forum policies to speculate or theorize on unsolved issues in physics. Please kindly disregard the above comment.
[End edit]

 

[MikeGomez]

Here are a few references to what I consider legitimate research related to the subject. Admittedly some are quite old, but I guess you have to start somewhere, especially if you are just learning the material as I am.


On the Origin of Inertia: D.W. Sciama 1952
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu/cgi-bin/nph-iarticle_query?1953MNRAS.113...34S&data_type=PDF_HIGH&whole_paper=YES&type=PRINTER&filetype=.pdf

Phase waves of Louis deBroglie:
http://users.df.uba.ar/giribet/f4/debroglie2.pdf

Louis deBroglie’s PHD thesis in its entirety:
http://www.fisicateorica.me/reposit...roglie_Kracklauer On the theory of quanta.pdf

Does the Inertia of a Body Depend Upon its Energy-Content: Einstein 1905
http://www.fourmilab.ch/etexts/einstein/E_mc2/www/

Energy Flow as the Cause of Inertia: Maciej Rybicki 2007
http://redshift.vif.com/JournalFiles/V14NO3PDF/V14N3RYB.pdf

 

[BruceW]

When an object moves from point A to point B, unless you actually make a measurement of the object in an intervening point, you can't say for certain that it has passed through this intervening point. According to Dr. Feynman, you have to take into account ALL possible routes connecting point A to point B to calculate the probability for the object to end up at B. The exact path is unknowable and unphysical, so you might as well say that the object jumps from A to B.

Yeah, that is true. But this is true for a path of any length, for example A and B could be meters away from each other. This is why I was saying that particles don't just do little jumps on the order of the Planck length.

Edit: also, I don't really like the term 'jump' because it implies something about the motion of the particle, but really in this context it just means 'it was there at one time, then at a later time, it was somewhere else"

 

[MikeGomez]

Yeah, that is true. But this is true for a path of any length, for example A and B could be meters away from each other. This is why I was saying that particles don't just do little jumps on the order of the Planck length."

Lets not forget the distinction between the nature of motion of the photon with no rest mass, and the nature of the motion of a particle with mass.

A photon travels at the speed of light, so it covers a fixed distance per time unit. If it moves in discrete increments (alternate paths notwithstanding) it moves either exactly one Plank length at a time or by some exact proportion to it.

A massive particle on the other hand, although composed of bound energy, does not move at the speed of light. What I have researched so far leads me to believe that the Plank unit governing the motion of a massive particle seems much more likely to be the Plank energy.

deBroglie said that all motion requires frequency. It struck me as profound.

 

[fredreload]

I think spacetime decides how particle should travel. The thing is we do not know about the structure of spacetime other than it is three dimensional and continuous. By looking at how particle travels should reveal more about spacetime. I think base on special relativity spacetime would contract at high speed and distance changes. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Length_contraction)

 

[MikeGomez]

I think spacetime decides how particle should travel.

Absolutely. But spacetime also needs information from the particle.

In case #1 the particle is moving at some velocity and we say that spacetime moves the particle.

In case #2 accelerate the particle to twice it’s initial velocity. Now spacetime moves the particle at twice the original velocity.

So how does spacetime ultimately decide at what velocity to move the particle? How does it decide which velocity of the two cases to use, or of an infinity of other possible cases? Spacetime uses information (kinetic energy etc) of the particle itself.

 

[ZealScience]

Are you asking about the destination or the trajectory? The trajectory is determined because that particular EOM minimize the action using Hamilton's principle. I think the final position however is confined by the trajectory on the phase space

 

[fredreload]

Absolutely. But spacetime also needs information from the particle.

In case #1 the particle is moving at some velocity and we say that spacetime moves the particle.

In case #2 accelerate the particle to twice it’s initial velocity. Now spacetime moves the particle at twice the original velocity.

So how does spacetime ultimately decide at what velocity to move the particle? How does it decide which velocity of the two cases to use, or of an infinity of other possible cases? Spacetime uses information (kinetic energy etc) of the particle itself.

We'll need to see the form energy takes apart from the particle itself. This is a famous equation by Einstein (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass–energy_equivalence). Let's say the particle is at rest, and then some energy is transfer to it, how does it decide where its next position should be.

 

[fredreload]

Actually energy should have a direction heh, else the model would not work.

 

[sophiecentaur]

Actually energy should have a direction heh, else the model would not work.

A sign (you can add and subtract it from a total) but not a direction - Energy is a Scalar, like money.

 

[fredreload]

Sphere is something I found regarding shape of universe on wiki (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shape_of_the_Universe). Right it's a sign, I think it's out of my reach for now.