Which Camera to Buy? Advice for Photographers

[turbo]

Anyway talking about buying camera's, most amazingly, if all goes well, I may trade my 550D with a 7D tomorrow. WOW

Wow! Nice upgrade!

 

[Borek]

I am still thinking about buying 7, but we decided to invest in lenses first.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Not sure if it's appropriate for PF to post an 'official' document on what is, in essence, a bunch of opinions (wise and educated as they may be) on products.

In the interest of 'putting my money where my mouth is', here's what I propose:

I don't know what the procedure/rules are for submitting/approving a sticky. If a moderator/admin gives me an idea of what is involved (and it's reasonable), I'm willing to recruit a team and generate a sticky for this topic.

I quickly wrote down a preliminary outline for the document based on what I cover in class (physics 1/2), to give an idea of what I have in mind. Comments/suggestions are obviously welcome (and will be solicited, should I decide to move forward).


What camera should I buy?

A: It depends. The best camera for you is the camera that meets your needs. While FB cannot recommend a specific camera (for various reasons), we can provide technical information that will help you better understand the material contained in other review sites.

I've never owned a camera (besides what is in my cell phone and laptop). I want to take one-handed pictures at parties and post them on my homepage or email them to my friends.

A: a compact point and shoot camera is likely the best option- everything is automatic, all you need to do is point the camera at what you want to take a picture of, zoom in or out until you like the image, and press the button. Usually, these cameras have an automatic flash, so make sure you know how to turn it off: flash photography is often forbidden in museums, churches, etc. Because this camera does everything for you, you give up having control over most or all of the parameters discussed below. Most likely,you will either outgrow this camera or need to replace it in about 1 or 2 years.

How digital cameras work
Bayer filter
maximizing the light onto the CCD- lower noise levels
maximizing the depth of field- small aperture
Dynamic range
optical zoom vs digital zoom
basic concepts: magnification, resolution, white balance

I've never owned a camera, but I want to get a 'real' camera (that doesn't cost too much).
I've owned a point and shoot camera already and I want to take the next step.

A: Usually called 'bridge cameras' or 'micro cameras', these cameras will allow you to have manual control over certain parameters: the f-stop, shutter speed, ISO setting, etc. The lens is generally attached permanently. This type of camera can remain useful for about 3-5 years before technological improvements make it obsolete. This is where life gets interesting- there is a huge range of options, performance, and pricing here.

f-stop: what is it
depth of field
ISO- what does it mean
exposure bracketing
focal length and magnification
using a histogram
post-processing
pixel size vs signal to noise
'Rule of 16'
ISO let's you set a faster shutter speed at any aperture. (boost the ISO for low light imaging). Boosting the ISO increases the noise level.
macro imaging
autofocus
image size and final 'print' size
sharpness/resolution
shutter speed: motion blur
misc: memory cards, CCD vs CMOS,

I'm ready for a DSLR!

A: These cameras are generally designed for people whose livlihoods depend on getting paid for their pictures: photojournalists and artists, for example. The lens performance is more critical now. In addition, a high quality lens will continue to deliver excellent performance long after the camera body is obsolete.

Classification of lenses: wide-angle, normal, portrait, telephoto, zoom, special (tilt/shift, fisheye, macro, reflex/catadiopteric)
35mm and 4 x 5 camera specifications
Lens aberrations: 2+ 5 primary (piston, tilt, defocus, distortion, spherical, coma, astigmatism, field curvature) _+ 2 chromatic (lateral and longitudinal). There are also higher-order aberrations.
Lens designations: plan, apochromatic, aspheric, etc
Flare
Bokeh (positive vs. negative spherical aberration)
sensor format: DX, FX, etc
image stabilization: lens/camera/tripod, mirror lockup
filters: color, gradient, polarizing
hyperfocal distance
misc: flash, lens adapters/teleconverters

I want to get the best digital camera there is and I don't care how much it costs.

A: PF does not endorse any camera manufacturer or lens manufacturer.

special topics:
astronomy
microscopy
underwater

 

[Borek]

I will discuss the thing with other Mentors. I feel the problem is a little bit circular. Hard to make a decision of making a sticky not seeing the post, hard to start a work not knowing if it will be sticky.

 

[turbo]

I will discuss the thing with other Mentors. I feel the problem is a little bit circular. Hard to make a decision of making a sticky not seeing the post, hard to start a work not knowing if it will be sticky.

We have a sticky on buying telescopes, though, and that is a complex subject with all kinds of variables and compromises. One big difference is that camera technology can change quickly, but that shouldn't be that much of a problem, if we stick to generalities and link to reviews, etc. People who are going to dump more than a few hundred dollars into camera-gear should expect to have to do research, but it would be nice to offer them some guidance, too. The learning-curve for consumer camera gear (especially DSLRs) can be daunting, and it's not fair to leave members at the mercy of salespeople at Best Buy when we could clear up some misconceptions.

Not to slam Best Buy - I got one heck of a deal on a second 30D body and an F-series 28-135 zoom when the 40Ds hit the stores, thanks to a salesperson I met on another forum.

 

[Andre]

Got the heck of a deal too, with the 7D this morning.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Got the heck of a deal too, with the 7D this morning.

woot!

 

[Andy Resnick]

We have a sticky on buying telescopes, though, and that is a complex subject with all kinds of variables and compromises.

I didn't see that- thanks for the heads-up. If I may ask since you wrote it, how did that sticky come to be?

 

[turbo]

I didn't see that- thanks for the heads-up. If I may ask since you wrote it, how did that sticky come to be?

I generally offer the same advice for people who want to buy a telescope, and would like to get into more detail, but didn't want to type the whole spiel in every time someone asked. I typed up a long post about selecting telescopes, and the strengths and limitations of various types, and a mentor made it "sticky".

 

[turbo]

Got the heck of a deal too, with the 7D this morning.

That's good to hear, Pooh! Have fun with your new gear!

 

[Andre]

Thanks, yes I'm trying to figure out how things work. Quite a bit different from the xx0D entry level camera's. But I found a favorite function already; any RAW setting can be combined with any jpeg setting. That's awesome. As I shoot in RAW -big slow files- I so missed a jpeg tumbnail to have a quick overview of which to toss and which to keep. The xx0D only allow for raw + biggest JPEG and that's not helpful as the big jpeg usually has half the size of the RAW already.

Ah well, sounds probably like Chinese.

 

[turbo]

Thanks, yes I'm trying to figure out how things work. Quite a bit different from the xx0D entry level camera's. But I found a favorite function already; any RAW setting can be combined with any jpeg setting. That's awesome. As I shoot in RAW -big slow files- I so missed a jpeg tumbnail to have a quick overview of which to toss and which to keep. The xx0D only allow for raw + biggest JPEG and that's not helpful as the big jpeg usually has half the size of the RAW already.

Ah well, sounds probably like Chinese.

Nope! I know what you're talking about. I have stopped shooting in RAW, just for the sake of convenience because I have all kinds of applications that can deal with JPEG directly, and not RAW.

 

[Borek]

I prefer RAW. I can always convert to JPG and use any other program. RAW has no compression artifacts and is much more flexible when it comes to fine tuning white balance with DPP. I am also not sure if it is possible to save all 12 bits per channel in RGB - I think not. Besides, DPP is able to correct some lens aberrations in the pictures - but it works only with RAW (that's actually stupid if you ask me, but that's the way it is).

Andre - do you use jpg thumbnails on camera, or on computer? In my experience Irfan View shows raws fast enough to allow efficient browsing. It can't zoom in as far as raw files allow, it reads only about half the resolution, but that's absolutely enough for browsing/showing/selecting. In theory irfan view is able to show full resolution after copying some Canon dlls into plugins directory, but I have never managed to make it work.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Thanks, yes I'm trying to figure out how things work. Quite a bit different from the xx0D entry level camera's. But I found a favorite function already; any RAW setting can be combined with any jpeg setting. That's awesome. As I shoot in RAW -big slow files- I so missed a jpeg tumbnail to have a quick overview of which to toss and which to keep. The xx0D only allow for raw + biggest JPEG and that's not helpful as the big jpeg usually has half the size of the RAW already.

Ah well, sounds probably like Chinese.

I tried playing around with RAW, but I'm not at the point where it's worth my time to deal with it. OTOH, I'm getting ready to send some files to a print shop- real printing, not what I can do- maybe I'll see a difference there.

 

[Andre]

I prefer RAW. I can always convert to JPG and use any other program. RAW has no compression artifacts and is much more flexible when it comes to fine tuning white balance with DPP. I am also not sure if it is possible to save all 12 bits per channel in RGB - I think not. Besides, DPP is able to correct some lens aberrations in the pictures - but it works only with RAW (that's actually stupid if you ask me, but that's the way it is).

Andre - do you use jpg thumbnails on camera, or on computer? In my experience Irfan View shows raws fast enough to allow efficient browsing. It can't zoom in as far as raw files allow, it reads only about half the resolution, but that's absolutely enough for browsing/showing/selecting. In theory irfan view is able to show full resolution after copying some Canon dlls into plugins directory, but I have never managed to make it work.

Exactly the reasons why I shoot raw, specially with the Tokina wideangle for lenscorrections and chromatic abbaration and also for fune tuned noise control.

Problem with Canon plugs in, I have heart, is that it does not support the 64bits in my desktop. So if I want to see raw thumbnails in windows I need to do it on my 32bits laptop. But if I shoot saw 20 RAWs of one particular bug, it takes ages and gigabytes to transfer and thumbnails are too small to judge sharpness etc. So that's why I'd loved to have lean small jpegs too, quick to transfer to the computer and excellent to use for selecting the best frame and after the selection, I can transfer only the selected RAWs for postprocessing. But the xx0D series only gives the heaviest jpegs, cluttering the memory card and still take a relatively long time to process.

 

[turbo]

For those that might be wondering, DPP is Digital Photo Professional - part of a suite of software that ships with Canon DSLRs. It allows you to manage Canon's proprietary RAW format (CR2) images in native mode. You get more options and more flexibility than using Photoshop to manipulate the images as JPEGs.

 

[DaveC426913]

I didn't see that- thanks for the heads-up. If I may ask since you wrote it, how did that sticky come to be?

The key bit here is that so many people ask about telescopes so frequently, and we basically spew the same thing (I have answered several), it simply saves effort on their part and on ours to make it sticky.

There are countless topics we could gather info on and post if we chose, the problem is that too many on topics that aren't popular enough and it becomes pollution.

Also, pretty hard to have a telescope and not have it be part of an established science (that would be astronomy). Not so with photography.

So, it seems to me, the questions are:
1] How often comparatively is that question being asked?
2] Is it a core topic for a physics board?
3] How many stickies is too many?

Not that I have a specific objection to a sticky on a given topic, it's just a risk of (what's the opposite of attrition?)

 

[Borek]

If we will have a good collection of information, we can make it sticky.

Especially if Andy will take care of the information quality

 

[Andy Resnick]

If we will have a good collection of information, we can make it sticky.

Especially if Andy will take care of the information quality

Excellent! I'm on it.

Edit: If you (the semi-interested person reading this thread) can think of something you wish you knew before buying your camera, please PM it to me. I/we would like this sticky to be as useful to everyone as possible, and I'm hoping we can get a finished product out in a week or so.

 

[Borek]

Edit: If you (the semi-interested person reading this thread) can think of something you wish you knew before buying your camera, please PM it to me.

As of today the only thing that I can think off is in a way unrelated. Some Canon cameras (like 400D) use CF memory cards, as far as I can tell there are no computers with built in CF cards readers. Marzena's 1000D uses SD cards, many laptops have a slot for these, I need additional card reader connected via USB. It is not that important, as in most cases we copy pictures directly from the camera, but specialized slot is faster - when it exists.

I will give it a more thought later.

 

[Andy Resnick]

Good point- cameras may not come with a card, or the included card is too small to be useful. Some cameras have dual slots and can let you simultaneously record RAW to one and JPG to the other. I have a card reader, and on more than one occasion I've gone on my merry way, got all excited about getting the *perfect* shot, only to find out I left the card in the reader.

 

[Andre]

About card reading, I notice that putting the card directly in the computer reads much faster than connecting the camera, but Andy highlights the problem with that - "forgetting". Also, forgetting is a big one with the DSLR's I've used so far. So, you work on a tripod in studio conditions, with approriate settings, like ISO 100, and shutter in time lapse or delay. So, after being ready the camera goes off. Then a day later, you want to take a sudden snapshot - now!. Camera on - push button - beeb...beeb...beeb...beeb eight seconds to go before the click . Why oh why do the camera manufactures think that this setting should be memorized.

 

[Borek]

Then a day later, you want to take a sudden snapshot - now!. Camera on - push button - beeb...beeb...beeb...beeb eight seconds to go before the click . Why oh why do the camera manufactures think that this setting should be memorized.

Agreed, that's one of my favs I was trying to take a picture of a woodpecker yesterday, two days ago I was taking pictures of a prism and a critical angle. Exactly the combination you have described.

At least some cameras (1000D) are not limited to 10 sec, they have also 2 sec setting.

 

[Borek]

I just received Andy's document - WOW.

There will be a problem - there is a limit to the length of the post (something like 20k characters), so document will have to be split. That may help to add links to material - first post can be just a TOC with links to next posts in the thread.

More later.

 

[Borek]

In my experience Irfan View shows raws fast enough to allow efficient browsing.

Correction. Irfan View doesn't read CR2 raws shot with EOS 7D, it shows just a sad excuse of 160x120 preview. To my surprise DPP 3.6.1.0 doesn't read them either. I am starting to understand why Andre wanted to save both raw and small jpg.

 

[Andre]

Oh yes I'm very happy with that, at 8 frames per second, seeing the wave rolling towards you, you start shooting a second early only want that single shot with the action:

and before you know it your 8GB card is full. So download only the small jpgs to the computer each maybe 0.5mb, select those maybe 10 pix in total, and only download those CR2's raws, each around 20-30mb. Also try to open a folder with 500 or so CR2's with DPP, well after diner it's ready.

 

[Borek]

Correction to correction: Irfan View 4.28 with new plugins loads and displays new raw format.