Which is better -- amp ground connected to frame or battery?

[UWouldKnow]

There is this debate in car audio forums of this question whether it is better to connect your amp ground to the frame of the car or the battery.. basically they haven't came to a conclusion so I was curious what you guys think...

Basically what I mean is that when you hook up an amp in the trunk of your car to power speakers should you connect the ground for the amp to the frame of the car or should you run a thick 1/0 ofc copper wire back to the battery...

I could see pros and cons to each situation-
Frame:
Pros: very large so it can handle heat well, R=rL/A... resistance should be low since there would be a large surface area, good conductor since it is so large
Cons: car frame material has a larger resistivity than a copper wire, car frame has many materials connected such as rubber so ground current may have to bounce off several materials to make it back to the battery ground, other devices are using the frame as the ground so maybe it could cause some interference.
Battery:
Pros: going straight to the battery seems like the most direct path, copper has low resistivity, copper wire also has a large surface area since it is made of many small wires, avoid interference since it's a dedicated ground
Cons: could be a worse conductor than the frame, could wear out faster than the frame, can't handle heat as well as the frame can

So what do you guys think?

 

[Averagesupernova]

There is this debate in car audio forums of this question whether it is better to connect your amp ground to the frame of the car or the battery.. basically they haven't came to a conclusion so I was curious what you guys think...

Basically what I mean is that when you hook up an amp in the trunk of your car to power speakers should you connect the ground for the amp to the frame of the car or should you run a thick 1/0 ofc copper wire back to the battery...

I could see pros and cons to each situation-
Frame:
Pros: very large so it can handle heat well, R=rL/A... resistance should be low since there would be a large surface area, good conductor since it is so large
Cons: car frame material has a larger resistivity than a copper wire, car frame has many materials connected such as rubber so ground current may have to bounce off several materials to make it back to the battery ground, other devices are using the frame as the ground so maybe it could cause some interference.
Battery:
Pros: going straight to the battery seems like the most direct path, copper has low resistivity, copper wire also has a large surface area since it is made of many small wires, avoid interference since it's a dedicated ground
Cons: could be a worse conductor than the frame, could wear out faster than the frame, can't handle heat as well as the frame can

So what do you guys think?

If this is the sort of thing floating around on car audio forums? Seriously? Having worked in automotive electrical some years ago my recommendation is to not hook anything to the battery except the battery cable(s). Hook the amp to the chassis and make sure there are good conductors that tie the chassis and the engine block together. BTW, this debate will likely never die on car audio forums.

 

[Rive]

So what do you guys think?

I think unless your audio draws current ~ in the class of the starter then simply there is no point in hooking it directly to the battery.

 

[UWouldKnow]

If this is the sort of thing floating around on car audio forums? Seriously? Having worked in automotive electrical some years ago my recommendation is to not hook anything to the battery except the battery cable(s). Hook the amp to the chassis and make sure there are good conductors that tie the chassis and the engine block together. BTW, this debate will likely never die on car audio forums.

Thanks for the response. I know that is the general rule of thumb, especially since most car audio systems installed at car audio shops aren't very big and wire is expensive but in terms of electrical theory what would you say...

 

[UWouldKnow]

I think unless your audio draws current ~ in the class of the starter then simply there is no point in hooking it directly to the battery.

The amplifier should draw current, right? A noticeable amount considering that an average size good amp is around 3000 watts rms

 

[UWouldKnow]

Something to add is that wouldn't you want your circuit to have the same size conductor on both sides of the battery or amplifier? When you use the frame or chassis as a ground the electricity flows from the battery through the copper wire and then back to the negative side of the battery through the frame of the car which is substantially different than a wire. When you guys create a circuit, don't you generally have the same size wire/metal throughout, excluding components.

 

[davenn]

The amplifier should draw current, right? A noticeable amount considering that an average size good amp is around 3000 watts rms

I doubt that there is a car amp out there that can really produce that sort of power ... It is another audio amplifier sales farce to the unsuspecting and unknowledgeable

3000W / 12V = 250 Amps ... and even if you wanted to say there was a couple of more volts
3000W / 14V = 214 Amps

seriously ??

a genuine 300W to maybe around 800 - 1000W, I could believe

 

[UWouldKnow]

Interesting. Okay would you say it would be better to use the frame? Would it be bad at all to go straight back to the battery, because I wanted to do that since I'm running a lot of extra electrical equipment in the interior and I get weird noises when I turn the devices on sometimes

 

[Rive]

Something to add is that wouldn't you want your circuit to have the same size conductor on both sides of the battery or amplifier?

The car chassis counts as conductor far thicker than the copper wire on the + pole.

3000W rms is marketing. If it comes with a gigantic puffer cap then it's a kind of short time peak value. If there is no puffer, then it's only a dream sold at high price.

Interesting. Okay would you say it would be better to use the frame? Would it be bad at all to go straight back to the battery, because I wanted to do that since I'm running a lot of extra electrical equipment in the interior and I get weird noises when I turn the devices on sometimes

The most you can do is to use a thicker wire at the - pole of the battery to the chassis and 'reinforce' the chassis with some thick copper, from the battery connect point to the amplifier ground point (you should connect it to the chassis on both points!). It'll do ~ nothing, but you will feel better I think... This class of load is just not for 12V systems.

A battery is not enough. It's a common problem with such beefed up car audio systems. You need a bigger generator, a bigger battery, many rewiring, a gigantic puffer cap and at the end you can't use it at night because when you turn up the bass the lamps starts blinking and the dogs around starts wooooooooooooo...

 

[tech99]

If you connect the amplifier negative lead directly to the -ve battery terminal, then if the thick negative lead from battery to frame becomes broken, the starter current might flow through your own amplifier -ve lead. This could happen of the amp has an inadvertent ground somewhere, such as via an antenna cable. Such a condition might cause damage or fire. So it is best to connect your amplifier lead to the frame end of the thick battery cable.
I think the reason for connecting close to the battery, if any, is to reduce noise and interference, rather than current capability.

 

[jim hardy]

Hook the amp to the chassis and make sure there are good conductors that tie the chassis and the engine block together.

Good advice.
Actually battery negative, chassis and engine must be tied together by heavy conductors .
Look for wide braided cables and make sure they are intact, not corroded, and not left off by some previous owner.
A kilowatt of audio ?
If you don't see wide braided grounding cables but instead little skinny ones or corroded ones, replace them.

On some Fords the negative battery cable goes down to engine block near starter, and it has midway along its length what looks like a simple mounting tab that bolts to the inside fenderwell.
That is more than a mounting tab, it's the grounding tab that ties battery negative and engine both to chassis sheet metal.
When somebody replaces that cable with one not having the grounding tab it causes electrical troubles - lights dim, electrical accessories don't work, because current has to find its way back to the alternator and battery through accidental routes like the speedometer cable and instrument wires . Sometimes those will melt.

A friend's Chevy truck recently quit when the braided wire just behind passenger side front fender connecting cab to frame corroded in two. That left all body sheet metal essentially disconnected from battery. It'd pass just enough current through the rust to barely run the fuel pump. Truck would idle but not drive, and turning on any light stopped the engine because fuel pressure dropped too low for the injectors to function.

So if you're adding a hundred amps or so of load to the grounding conductors in your vehicle, it would behoove you to know where those conductors are and to inspect them to be sure they're up to the task.

That was the point of my two boring anecdotes.old jim

 

[Averagesupernova]

For the record, a couple hundred amps current draw is not at all uncommon for one or for sure several amplifiers combined. If you doubt me do a quick Google for db drag racing. Dimming headlights is not at all uncommon.

 

[UWouldKnow]

If you connect the amplifier negative lead directly to the -ve battery terminal, then if the thick negative lead from battery to frame becomes broken, the starter current might flow through your own amplifier -ve lead. This could happen of the amp has an inadvertent ground somewhere, such as via an antenna cable. Such a condition might cause damage or fire. So it is best to connect your amplifier lead to the frame end of the thick battery cable.
I think the reason for connecting close to the battery, if any, is to reduce noise and interference, rather than current capability.

Interesting. So if you were to fuse the wire that goes from the amp ground to the battery ground would that eliminate the worry? or do you think it would just be safer to ground to the chassis/frame?

 

[Averagesupernova]

If you fuse the main ground wire and it blows, where do you have think the current will find its way through then? My guess is someplace you don't want it.

 

[UWouldKnow]

If you fuse the main ground wire and it blows, where do you have think the current will find its way through then? My guess is someplace you don't want it.

When you say "main ground wire" are you talking about the ground wire from the amp to the battery?

 

[Averagesupernova]

When you say "main ground wire" are you talking about the ground wire from the amp to the battery?

Yes. This is what you suggested right? Fusing this wire?

 

[UWouldKnow]

Yes. This is what you suggested right? Fusing this wire?

Ya

 

[UWouldKnow]

Ya

So you think if the ground fuse blew the current would still travel through other things?

 

[Averagesupernova]

If there is a path, why would it not? I don't recall if some (or all) amplifiers have the shield on the RCA connectors isolated from the main power ground or not. I am pretty sure the RCA outputs on most headunits DO have continuity between the RCA connectors shield and ground. I would take the side of caution and do everything possible to be sure that continuity is not broken on the power cable.

 

[UWouldKnow]

If there is a path, why would it not? I don't recall if some (or all) amplifiers have the shield on the RCA connectors isolated from the main power ground or not. I am pretty sure the RCA outputs on most headunits DO have continuity between the RCA connectors shield and ground. I would take the side of caution and do everything possible to be sure that continuity is not broken on the power cable.

Interesting. Do you think the same thing could happen when the ground is connected through the frame since there's so many other electronics connected to the frame and wires near the frame? Or are you concluding that the safest option is to connect it to the frame/chassis?

 

[Averagesupernova]

Interesting. Do you think the same thing could happen when the ground is connected through the frame since there's so many other electronics connected to the frame and wires near the frame? Or are you concluding that the safest option is to connect it to the frame/chassis?

Do yourself a favor and draw out a schematic. Draw it showing various wires and vehicle ground components and how they connect. Battery to block, block to chassis, amp to chassis, etc. Then break some of those wires with your pencil eraser and try to find the current path back to the battery. Do this with various configurations of how you have the amp and headunit connected. If you assume that the RCA shields are grounded inside both the amp and headunit you will find scenarios where the RCA cables between the amp and headunit will carry much more current than they were designed to. The shield on the antenna coax is another suspect depending on if you ground the headunit to the battery as well. Everyone always thinks you cannot have a better ground on a vehicle than the battery when they install aftermarket devices and that is simply wrong.

 

[UWouldKnow]

Do yourself a favor and draw out a schematic. Draw it showing various wires and vehicle ground components and how they connect. Battery to block, block to chassis, amp to chassis, etc. Then break some of those wires with your pencil eraser and try to find the current path back to the battery. Do this with various configurations of how you have the amp and headunit connected. If you assume that the RCA shields are grounded inside both the amp and headunit you will find scenarios where the RCA cables between the amp and headunit will carry much more current than they were designed to. The shield on the antenna coax is another suspect depending on if you ground the headunit to the battery as well. Everyone always thinks you cannot have a better ground on a vehicle than the battery when they install aftermarket devices and that is simply wrong.

Okay thanks that helps.
So just to make sure, you're saying that it is best to connect the ground of the amp to the frame right?

 

[Averagesupernova]

Okay thanks that helps.
So just to make sure, you're saying that it is best to connect the ground of the amp to the frame right?

Yes that is generally the case.

 

[Joshua Monger]

Hello everyone,
I am debating what I want to do for an install and here is what I have to add and consider. I have previous experience with using the chassis for ground creating a ground loop issue (loud alternator whine in the treble). This being the case wouldn't you want to ground directly to the battery from your amp and capacitor on a fused line just like every other completing the circuit example? I think having a ground, say in a house that actually goes into the ground is different than just thinking the frame is the ground because... well it isn't its just a giant wire for you to use to get to your negative battery terminal (It's going to the battery one way or the other!). The problem here is that the frame can act as a giant antenna, and we get to the dirty part: why on Earth would you want to add interference to your to car amp's ground!? The whole point is to have clarity to your ears right?
Okay, so with that being said there's the whole resistance issue. The frame can handle much more heat and resistance making it still a better option from what everyone's saying. Shouldn't you fuse your ground from your amp to the frame as well? Just good practice I would think. I am torn on this and can't decide. Just because most amps are wired to the frame doesn't make it the correct option at all. Somebody please help me on my decision. I feel like using the frame is almost a safer option but who wants to run ground through the same place all the other vehicle electronics go though!?
Thanks everyone for this forum and any responses are much appreciated!

 

[jim hardy]

I feel like using the frame is almost a safer option but who wants to run ground through the same place all the other vehicle electronics go though!?

Ten or twenty amps is one thing but a hundred is quite another.

Myself,
having seen the skimpy grounding braids they use on modern(post 1990's) vehicles
i would inspect and upgrade as i thought necessary every one of those 'grounding' conductors through which amplifier return current must pass.

And if it's one of those preposterous hundred ampere amplifiers
i would in addition run a dedicated return wire , twisted with the fused supply wire so as to minimize the magnetic field, from the amp right to where the battery's negative cable gets bolted to chassis and place it underneath the same bolt.

See my post number 11.

old jim

 

[tech99]

If you take the amplifier negative lead direct to the battery, if the battery loses its ground connection and if your amplifier has an inadvertent ground connection, the the entire vehicle current load will flow through your amplifier. Including starter current.

 

[jim hardy]

If you take the amplifier negative lead direct to the battery, if the battery loses its ground connection and if your amplifier has an inadvertent ground connection, the the entire vehicle current load will flow through your amplifier. Including starter current.

Good observation.
That's reason enough to inspect and understand the vehicle's 'grounding' system, as @Averagesupernova suggested, upgrading where it looks prudent.

On the Fords i own the negative battery wire goes straight to a starter mounting bolt, so loss of chassis to battery connection would pass just accessory and lighting current through the amp but not starter current.

I don't know how foreign or GM cars are wired.

 

[Joshua Monger]

thanks everyone, ill have try and improve the manufacturers battery to frame ground for starters. It sounds like unless you have some kind of forced one direction circuit its just a really bad idea to run the amp directly to the battery if the rest of the vehicle loses ground and then would try and ground through the amp... likely shorting it out. Good point!

 

[jim mcnamara]

This thread was started a year ago. We finally reached an end point, Joshua came back to say thanks. We normally do not keep threads like this (a non-sticky thread) open for such a long time. Thanks to everyone for helping. Thread closed.