Who uses scientific calculators?

[Liberty Bell]

Who uses scientific calculators, aside from students and teachers? Engineers and physicists, I suppose. Maybe mathematicians too.

 

[Bystander]

Who uses scientific calculators, aside from students and teachers? Engineers and physicists, I suppose. Maybe mathematicians too.

"Who" as a class, or who personally?

 

[Stephen Tashi]

By the standards of days past, I use scientific calculators to do simple arithmetic - because the average cheap calculator nowadays is a scientific calculator by those standards. Who uses scientific calculators by higher standards ( graphing calculators, programmable calculators etc.) is a different question.

 

[jedishrfu]

I think most engineers and scientists would use MATLAB as they would be dealing with fairly large amounts of data. I could see someone spot checking calculations but not detailed analysis.

Programmers sometimes use them to do quick units conversions or binary math on hex or octal or sometimes even base 2 especially xor stuff.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Not much use for mathematicians. They either don't do work involving computations at all,or so many that it would require a computer.
I didn't know this before I was a math major. When I enrolled in bought a kickass graphing calculator. I wasn't allowed to use it in lower level classes and it had no relevance to the upper level classes.
But I'm doing more stats these days...

 

[Windadct]

IMO - professionals use MatLab and other SW for more complex issues, as well as the plotting and data reporting - real work problems are rarely a "single answer".. The Point of a scientific calc today is that it limits your resources, and the users understanding is clear - i.e. for Education use only. For basic cals I use my phone -- all of the same scientific functions are there.

 

[mpresic]

I use a scientific calculator from time to time. Sometimes I do not want to have a laptop with MATLAB, or fortran, or C compiler on my lap. My phone does not give me the kind of positive key action my HP calculator does. A phone is just not as comfortable. In addition, when you use a calculator some years, you know where all the keys are.

There is one problem though. Calculators lately have crammed more and more functions per key and made the screen graphing, and added a lot of features that should belong to computers. One of my favorite calculators was HP-15. It had the right balance of features, and could truly fit in a shirt pocket without bulging.
You could program it, but I more often programmed computers when I wanted something large. Unfortunately HP-15's are dying of old age lately.

Even when HP-15's were prevalent there were more powerful programmable calculators out but none could match the portability and size, when you needed a quick answer.

 

[Liberty Bell]

The situation seems similar with financial calculators - used for classes and tests, but real financial work is done with Excel or maybe specialized software. They're still kind of nifty though.

 

[jedishrfu]

I used my ti89 to score soccer game stats. Some parents thought the coach was playing a game while kids played soccer and used to complain about it until their kids told them what i was doing.

The program generated running stats based on simple input. Each time the ball was tapped by a player id hit a key to indicate which side. Each time a goal was made i did the same thing.

The program would calculate how many successful passes resulted in a goal. Basically if the team could pass it three times in a row they had a 1 in 5 chance of making a goal. If only 2 times it was 1 in 15 tries to make a goal.

I thought of expanding it to study ball placement on the field but the kids graduated to a travel team and it was driving all over Texas.

 

[jedishrfu]

Today though id use my iphone and pythonista to code the app. It would be a piece of cake to tap on the field and record ball play for future study of attack methods.

Teams with right footed forwards tended to circulate the ball counterclockwise around the field. For lefties it was clockwise. When there was a mix the ball would ping pong around on one side.

But if a team had a good lefty and righty striker pair they devastated the field zig zagging down to the goal to score.

But i digress...

 

[Hercuflea]

I used mine since the 8th grade, now I'm in grad school. I've recently realized that its usually much better to type whatever I want to know into my wolfram alpha app on my smartphone rather than try to punch it into my ti-84, because wolfram often includes other useful information like plots or unit conversions, and it can interpret misspelled or hastily written commands accurately. But I can type really fast on the TI so if I want to do a quick calculation I'll use it.

I've also got a giant book full of "mathematical functions, tables, and transforms" that I got at goodwill for 4 dollars, but it has also since gone the way of the slide rule and been outdated by technology. Wolfram alpha has all of that stuff at the click of a button and it can be accessed from something as small as a cell phone.

 

[Mark44]

I use a scientific calculator from time to time. Sometimes I do not want to have a laptop with MATLAB, or fortran, or C compiler on my lap. My phone does not give me the kind of positive key action my HP calculator does. A phone is just not as comfortable. In addition, when you use a calculator some years, you know where all the keys are.

I have several scientific calculators, one of which I use to reconcile my checking account each month. I use the calculator app on my desktop computer for most simple calculations. My cellphone, which I've had for about 15 years (really!) has a calculator on it, but I never use it. The only thing I use my phone for is to make calls, maybe five in a year. I only rarely even turn it on. If a device doesn't have a nice keyboard that I can use both hands on, it's not for me.

 

[jedishrfu]

Don't knock the slide rule! When your batteries fail and you're out in the wilderness or on a deserted isle who you going to call? Bill Murray?

The slide rule is an awesome invention right up there with the pencil. It works under extreme conditions with few moving parts and no battery to overheat and catch fire automatically rounding to 3 significant figures or maybe 4 depending on how good your eyesight is.

 

[Liberty Bell]

I suppose calculators were used more before personal computers became standard.

I use the calculator in my cellphone at the store to compare unit prices. For example at Walmart the toothpaste price tags don't have the per oz. price, and they're all different irregular sizes so you can't compare prices.

 

[Dr. Courtney]

Who uses scientific calculators, aside from students and teachers? Engineers and physicists, I suppose. Maybe mathematicians too.

I pop up a calculator on my computer once in a while, but usually I am using other software tools. When teaching, I prefer a simple multi-purpose graphing program. Graph.exe is a favorite on Windows.

https://www.padowan.dk/download/

The only advantage I see to handheld calculators is in teaching contexts where there is a need or desire to restrict resources to those built into a defined box with limited functionality. Letting students use computers is harder to police in many contexts, and a lot of teachers prefer students not be googling up answers or using tools like Wolfram Alpha.

This creates the paradox that the only real reason most people use scientific calculators any more is not because of what they CAN do, but because of what they CANNOT do - limited functionality to prevent "cheating" however that is defined in an academic context.

 

[Dr Transport]

I use the HP15c emulator on my phone when teaching class during the day. When I teach math, I only use it for trigonometry functions and logs, I usually stumble thru the square roots because I refuse to pull out the calculator.

 

[CalcNerd]

As an Elect Engineer I do use an Hp 12c at my desk for general number crunching, nothing sophisticated or advanced. If I do have to do any real number crunching on the back of an envelope so to speak, I dig out my Hp 48sx out of the bottom drawer and use it (maybe 2-3 times a month). I use my 12c quite a bit during the average day, but if I need to document my numbers, I crank out an Excel spreadsheet, often re-using an earlier one and modifying for the new project. My company doesn't have access to anything more sophisticated, although I do have my own, older copy of Mathcad for any serious report work.
.
I prefer an Hp 15c or even better an Hp 42s, but losing either would result in my crying for a week, so I just leave an Hp 12c on my desk. I travel with a well worn Hp 32sii for field work or meetings offsite.

 

[Liberty Bell]

but if I need to document my numbers, I crank out an Excel spreadsheet, often re-using an earlier one and modifying for the new project. My company doesn't have access to anything more sophisticated, although I do have my own, older copy of Mathcad for any serious report work.

I didn't know Excel was used for engineering, interesting.

 

[symbolipoint]

This is really great. I wish more people in technology and sciences thought this way:

Don't knock the slide rule! When your batteries fail and you're out in the wilderness or on a deserted aisle who you going to call? Bill Murray?

The slide rule is an awesome invention right up there with the pencil. It works under extreme conditions with few moving parts and no battery to overheat and catch fire automatically rounding to 3 significant figures or maybe 4 depending on how good your eyesight is.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Don't knock the slide rule! When your batteries fail and you're out in the wilderness or on a deserted aisle who you going to call? Bill Murray?

The slide rule is an awesome invention right up there with the pencil. It works under extreme conditions with few moving parts and no battery to overheat and catch fire automatically rounding to 3 significant figures or maybe 4 depending on how good your eyesight is.

I inherited one from my dad and I really want to learn how to use it. I always thought it would help me intuitively understand logarithms a bit more.

-Dave K

 

[jedishrfu]

Start with the C and D scales. They are used to do basic multiplication. Notice that they both start and end with a 1 marker.

Recall how you'd use two rulers to do addition. It works the same with sliderules. The magic is in the scales used.

There are several other scales for doing squares and sqroots and for trig functions too.

 

[symbolipoint]

I kept a scientific calculator in my pocket all the time several years after earning my undergraduate degree and often used it in the workplace. LCD display, most of the basic functions: log, ln, sin, cos, tan, x^2,square root, 10^x, e, pi, and an inverse key. Battery only needed changing every 2 or 3 years. Basic algebra and some arithmetic I would do on paper. Computations for formulas or other computations with too many digits I would do with the hand held scientific calculator.

 

[mpresic]

Slide rules allow you to compare two scales in a way calculators do not. For example you can put 22 on the c-scale to 15 on the d-scale. You can then compare feet per second on the c-scale to miles per hour on the d-scale. I think that seeing things in this manner may enhance thinking "holistically". You see relationships "all at once". It can never hurt to experience all different manners of thinking.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Slide rules allow you to compare two scales in a way calculators do not. For example you can put 22 on the c-scale to 15 on the d-scale. You can then compare feet per second on the c-scale to miles per hour on the d-scale. I think that seeing things in this manner may enhance thinking "holistically". You see relationships "all at once". It can never hurt to experience all different manners of thinking.

Yeah, this is kind of what I was thinking. I believe that mechanical devices like slide rules and abucuses (abaci? I don't know the plural) can really help mathematical intuition.

-Dave K

 

[jedishrfu]

Yeah, this is kind of what I was thinking. I believe that mechanical devices like slide rules and abucuses (abaci? I don't know the plural) can really help mathematical intuition.

-Dave K

The curious thing with abaci are that the chinese one uses two 5 markers and 5 one markers which allows for hexidecimal math whereas the Japanese soroban has 1 5 marker and 4 one markers per digit for decimal math.

The wiki article on the abacus also mentions that abaci or abacuses plurals are in dispute and are both valid for plural usage.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abacus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soroban

 

[UsableThought]

I believe that mechanical devices like slide rules and abucuses (abaci? I don't know the plural) can really help mathematical intuition.

Are you familiar with Feynman's account of the time he competed against an abacus salesman? His depiction would seem to run counter to your belief: http://www.ee.ryerson.ca:8080/~elf/abacus/feynman.html

I know about this only because about 2 months ago, I was laying out my self-teaching curriculum for a review of high school math (see my https://www.physicsforums.com/members/usablethought.611113/#info for why). One of my concerns was that I have been very poor at calculation since, oh, probably forever; and my thinking today, as an adult, is that some reasonable facility with athrimetic & algebraic calculation is necessary to move on to more abstract topics. And as part of this I wondered if an abacus would help - there are all sorts of sites online that like you say it's a magic path to mathematical intuition.

But I'm a big Feynman fan, so in my Googling when I came across that excerpt, I took his depiction of the robotic abacus salesman very seriously. Plus I did some further reading on what skill on the abacus consists of & what it leads to. Apparently, you're meant to get very good at moving the beads without thinking about what you're doing - which is not going to do a damn thing to develop intuition. Your body is doing the counting, not your mind. Once your body gets very good at moving the beads very fast, the next goal is to visualize a mental abacus and manipulate the "beads" on that very quickly as well. But although it's a mental representation there is still nothing of intuition involved; it's mechanical non-thinking carried to an extreme.

So instead, for my simple learning purposes I'm going 180 degrees the reverse - breaking down standard paper-and-pencil calculation so as to understand the operations; plus when appropriate learning mental-math strategies of the sort apparently now taught to school kids (e.g., partitioning and/or compensating when doing addition or subtraction). As an example, about 5 days ago when reviewing the binary chapter in Gelfand's Algebra, I realized my binary division sucked because my decimal division sucked; because why? Because long division relies on subtraction; and 50-some years ago, I was taught the traditional "borrowing" subtraction algorithm used in the U.S. at the time, but was never taught what was going on beneath the hood. So year after year I've gotten worse at subtractions that involve borrowing; and thus worse & worse at long division. So I delved into my https://www.amazon.com/dp/0224086359/?tag=pfamazon01-20 book & some similar books & articles; reviewed what base 10 really means in terms of a positional notation; reviewed the different paper & pencil methods of representing the operations involved in subtraction, vis-a-vis base 10; ditto subtraction in base 2 while I was at it; and now for the first time I actually have a clue. This morning I returned to the section on binary division, enjoyed it & finished it, and can now move on. I can't imagine an abacus would have been at all helpful with any of this.

Perhaps the real question is, what to you is mathematical intuition? How does it come about ordinarily? How would a gadget such as a slide rule or abacus fit into a larger model of learning math & abstraction? Perhaps you have a very specific goal in mind?

 

[Laurie K]

I kept a scientific calculator in my pocket all the time several years after earning my undergraduate degree and often used it in the workplace. LCD display, most of the basic functions: log, ln, sin, cos, tan, x^2,square root, 10^x, e, pi, and an inverse key. Battery only needed changing every 2 or 3 years.

In 1987 I was given a similarly equipped Canon F-44 Scientific Calculator and used it for work and uni up until 1996. I have never replaced the battery as it has only been used once a year or so at most in the past 20 years. Just the fact that it still works is pretty amazing.

 

[UsableThought]

A further note about the Feynman abacus story that may be of some small interest:

While Googling for the page where I remembered having seen that particular excerpt, I got a related hit which proved to be someone's commentary on the story - specifically, a PDF of the introduction to a book by science writer Dana Mackenzie, https://www.amazon.com/dp/0691160163/?tag=pfamazon01-20. From the book description on Amazon: "The Universe in Zero Words tells the history of 24 great and beautiful equations that have shaped mathematics, science, and society - from the elementary (1+1=2) to the sophisticated (the Black-Scholes formula for financial derivatives), and from the famous (E=mc2) to the arcane (Hamilton's quaternion equations)."

The PDF of the introduction is here. Mackenzie proposes that Feynman's ability to beat an abacus salesman in computing cube roots can be seen as a re-enactment in miniature of the struggle in Europe between the newfangled decimal (or Arabic) system of notation, when first introduced, and older systems. I have bolded that part of the text that speaks to the question of whether an abacus might teach mathematical intuition:

The struggle between the old and new number systems went on for a very long time—well over two centuries. And, in fact, open competitions were held between abacists (people who used mechanical tools to do arithmetic) and algorists (people who used the new algorithmic methods). So Feynman and the abacus salesman were re-fighting a very old duel!

We know how battle ended. Nowadays, everyone in Western society uses decimal numbers. Grade school students learn the algorithms for adding, subtracting, multiplying, and dividing. So clearly, the algorists won. But Feynman’s story shows that the reasons may not be as simple as you think. On some problems, the abacists were undoubtedly faster. Remember that the abacus salesman “beat him hollow” at addition. But the decimal system provides a deeper insight into numbers than a mechanical device does. So the harder the problem, the better the algorist will perform. As science progressed during the Renaissance, mathematicians would need to perform even more sophisticated calculations than cube roots. Thus, the algorists won for two reasons: at the high end, the decimal system was more compatible with advanced mathematics; while at the low end, the decimal system empowered everyone to do arithmetic.

But maybe an algorist plus abacist would be a sensationally intuitive and speedy problem-solver! Kind of like the way crossing a vampire with a lycan in Underworld produced a hybrid super-beast.

 

[Dr Transport]

I didn't know Excel was used for engineering, interesting.

There are multitudes of people working in engineering that use excel and nothing else for engineering. I had co-workers who had never learned how to program and others who hadn't programmed since getting their degree.

 

[Windadct]

Excel example - our Gurus developed a loss calculation tool for large IGBT modules in TMLI topology, it has > 100 parameters, considering the database is at the IGBT/Diode chip level & each chip has about 20 interdependent parameters, . The losses in each device is dependent on many factors - e.g. actual switching losses per switching event ;V, I, Temp - etc.

Results are Steady Sate and overload, and include the dynamic thermal response of the die, module construction an heatsink. So the total steady state calculation is run for each degree of the cycle (360 steps) for enough iterations until the temps are stable, and then the overload case is run since the temps usually do not reach SS.
We are able to use this for existing products as well as proposed custom modules with customer specific die sets, including SIC MOSFET and Diodes.

 

[Mark44]

Yeah, this is kind of what I was thinking. I believe that mechanical devices like slide rules and abucuses (abaci? I don't know the plural) can really help mathematical intuition.

Yes, abaci is the correct plural, which I believe is pronounced ab' a see.
Working with a slide rule can help with mathematical intuition because you have to figure out the correct power of ten for many calculations, such as 432 x 363. The way it works is that you put the 1 marker on the C scale on, say, 4.32 on the D scale, and then slide the cursor to 3.63 on the C scale.(In doing this I actually had to put the 1 marker at the right end of the C scale on 4.32). On the D scale, the cursor shows a little shy of 1.57. Since 432 is really 4.32 X 10² and 363 is really 3.63 X 10², my slide rule answer is 15.7 X 10⁴, or 1.57 X 10⁵. This isn't too far from the exact answer, 156,816.

How a slide rule works for multiplication can give one a good insight to logarithms, as many of the scales are laid out logarithmically. The 1 on the left end of the C and D scales represents 0 (the log₁₀ 1 is 0). The 1 on the right end of these scales represents 10 (whose log is 1). The 2 on these scales is placed about .3010 of the way between the two ends, and 3 is placed about .4771 of the way.

When you multiply 2 and 3, you are really adding the logs of these numbers, and getting the log (base 10) of the answer. For example, placing the left-end 1 of the C scale on the 3 of the D scale, and then moving the cursor to the 2 on the C scale lines up with the 6 marker on the D scale. In effect you are doing this addition: $\log 3 + \log 2 = \log(3 \cdot 2) = \log 6$.

Division is just the opposite; instead of adding the lengths (adding the logs), you subtract the lengths.To calculate 3/2, put the 3 on the C scale above the 2 on the D scale, and read the answer on the D scale under the 1 on the C scale. You are effectively subtracting the length of 2 (on the C scale) from the length of 3 (on the D scale) to get the quotient, keeping in mind that what I'm referring to as "lengths" are really logarithms in base-10.

 

[dkotschessaa]

Yes, abaci is the correct plural, which I believe is pronounced ab' a see.
Working with a slide rule can help with mathematical intuition because you have to figure out the correct power of ten for many calculations, such as 432 x 363. The way it works is that you put the 1 marker on the C scale on, say, 4.32 on the D scale, and then slide the cursor to 3.63 on the C scale.(In doing this I actually had to put the 1 marker at the right end of the C scale on 4.32). On the D scale, the cursor shows a little shy of 1.57. Since 432 is really 4.32 X 10² and 363 is really 3.63 X 10², my slide rule answer is 15.7 X 10⁴, or 1.57 X 10⁵. This isn't too far from the exact answer, 156,816.

How a slide rule works for multiplication can give one a good insight to logarithms, as many of the scales are laid out logarithmically. The 1 on the left end of the C and D scales represents 0 (the log₁₀ 1 is 0). The 1 on the right end of these scales represents 10 (whose log is 1). The 2 on these scales is placed about .3010 of the way between the two ends, and 3 is placed about .4771 of the way.

When you multiply 2 and 3, you are really adding the logs of these numbers, and getting the log (base 10) of the answer. For example, placing the left-end 1 of the C scale on the 3 of the D scale, and then moving the cursor to the 2 on the C scale lines up with the 6 marker on the D scale. In effect you are doing this addition: $\log 3 + \log 2 = \log(3 \cdot 2) = \log 6$.

Division is just the opposite; instead of adding the lengths (adding the logs), you subtract the lengths.To calculate 3/2, put the 3 on the C scale above the 2 on the D scale, and read the answer on the D scale under the 1 on the C scale. You are effectively subtracting the length of 2 (on the C scale) from the length of 3 (on the D scale) to get the quotient, keeping in mind that what I'm referring to as "lengths" are really logarithms in base-10.

Thanks for this. When I get a moment I'm going to mess with the one I have.

 

[Mark44]

Thanks for this. When I get a moment I'm going to mess with the one I have.

I have four of them: a very cheap plastic one with scales on only one side and blank on the other; a plastic one that must have been a bit more expensive, with scales on both sides; an inexpensive aluminum one with scales on one side and fraction-to-decimal conversions and other stuff on the other side; a very nice bamboo slide rule with a leather case and a magnifying lens, and scales on both sides. This last one belonged to my wife's father. He must have gotten it back in the '30s or so.

 

[Robert Sanchez]

I inherited one from my dad and I really want to learn how to use it. I always thought it would help me intuitively understand logarithms a bit more.

-Dave K

I recently purchased two slide rules from ebay. sliderulemuseum.com has step by step instructions for basic use.
My older sister used one in high school and by the time I got there, TI calculators were in the classroom.

As for calculator use now, I have a HP48GX that I've used for the past 18 years and it's the only device I know... I love RPN.

 

[litup]

In my job I use a casio fx 300ES and the like for general math stuff but I use the time function almost every day. I have machine runs that takes 5 or 6 hours and the operators need to know when it will finish the run so I have to use the machine scan speed and calculate the run time so hour minute and second notation is crucial and it works well. I have a 12c also, trying to learn RPN programming and an HP48 but I seldom need that much caclulator, lot of conversions and such, pounds to grams, F to C, that kind of thing, and constants like c and G and such.