Who Will Be the New Pope After White Smoke?

[Nylex]

I want to prod him and say, "good popey pope!".

 

[vanesch]

I saw a report on yesterday explaining how the conclave originated. Apparently, way back, somewhere like the 15th century (I didn't listen hard enough to catch the century),

I think it was in 1241 or something of the kind.

cheers,
Patrick.

 

[revelator]

His education in school was entirely made under Nazism...

Daniel.

P.S.He would have gotten the chance to shoot Commies & Yanks,if the war hadn't ended when it did...

If I recall correctly, he deserted the German army, and was caught by American soldiers and sent to a POW camp.

What gets me about the recent events, are all the people clamoring for reform and whatnot. I'm not religious, but I thought that the believers were supposed to live their lives accordin to doctrine, not change doctrine to suit their whims. I guess the people in question, just want to be Catholics on their own terms, rather than on God's terms (assuming the Catholic church actually speaks for God )

I find the most ridiculous reform being called for, is church sanctioned abortion. I'm pro-choice myself, but think the idea of the church sanctioning the destruction of potential life is just ludicrous.

 

[cronxeh]

and there, i get my morning dose of laughter

 

[arildno]

I find the most ridiculous reform being called for, is church sanctioned abortion. I'm pro-choice myself, but think the idea of the church sanctioning the destruction of potential life is just ludicrous.

Yes, you're absolutely right.
The catholic church has a long history of not caring a whit about REAL lives and actual human happiness. Rather, they are interested in fantasy lives dreamed up by deluded priests.

 

[revelator]

Sorry, maybe I'm just tired (long night of work), but on which part do you agree?

 

[arildno]

That it is ludicrous to believe that the church will come to its senses with respect to the abortion issue.

 

[revelator]

Actually, then dude, I think we are in complete disagreement. I think the idea of church sanctioned abortion is ludicrous (despite my being pro-choice). How can an institute that is supposed to be "holy" support the destruction of life, even if that life is only a potential?

What I meant originally, is that it should be the Catholics who live their lives according to doctrine, rather than changing the doctrine to suit the Christians.

 

[Smurf]

If I recall correctly, he deserted the German army, and was caught by American soldiers and sent to a POW camp.

What gets me about the recent events, are all the people clamoring for reform and whatnot. I'm not religious, but I thought that the believers were supposed to live their lives accordin to doctrine, not change doctrine to suit their whims. I guess the people in question, just want to be Catholics on their own terms, rather than on God's terms (assuming the Catholic church actually speaks for God )

I find the most ridiculous reform being called for, is church sanctioned abortion. I'm pro-choice myself, but think the idea of the church sanctioning the destruction of potential life is just ludicrous.

You bring up some good point here. I think it's obvious that the information revolution is having an affect on religion now. It's becoming obvious to everyone exactly how the church works, people are referring to cardinals as having 'opinions' and the pope is 'conservative', he's not divinly inspired and appointed, he's democratically elected, in an actualy almost campaign-esque fashion.
People are calling for reformation of the church to suit society, if they really believed it was inspired by god 1. this wouldn't be possible and, 2. it would be a horrible thing to try to change it. It's pretty obvious that the masses are beginning (or already) to lose faith that the church is a see-all know-all organization. While this won't shake people's belief in god as a concept, its pretty obvious people are beginning to believe he doesn't interfere at all in our own world.

 

[revelator]

Indeed. I was raised Catholic myself, but was never much on "just have faith" (that's a cop out, so you don't have to think for yourself). I do agree with many of Catholicism's ideals, but will stop short at believing in an All Powerful, All Knowing, and All Caring (how can He possibly be all three?!) God.

There may be a God, I don't know. But I'll behave ethically simply because its the right thing to do, I don't need a God to tell me that.

 

[cronxeh]

pretty cool how they elected a new, german, nazism-raised pope, by hitler's birthday

 

[plus]

Why does this seem similar to seeing what country/city the next Olympics will be held in? Well maybe the Africans and Latin Americans will have better luck next time.

The reason they do not get the olympics is because it costs really a lot of money to host and cannot afford the facilities. This is not similar to being a pope.
There has never been an american pope either.

 

[revelator]

I think he said that, because people are betting on which country the next Pope comes from, and behavior of that nature..

 

[plus]

Priests not allowed to marry? No female priests?

What would change, why wouldn't it be the same? If it would change it means that the footing of the people is not very strong when it is influenced by such factors, in my opinion.

Does that mean that females should not be allowed to have careers, or just not religious careers? Does that mean that females should not be allowed to become president either?

There is a specific doctrine set down in religious documents which gives women roles as it does for men. Theology should not necessarily be equal to the latest fads whatever they may be. It is more difficult to have opinions which differ from the norm than opinions which are equal.

 

[Clausius2]

I guess this election should be a big priority on cardinals schedules, as long sa it takes. If your guess is true, it won't be an impressive thing to know. Specially if chosing the new Pope is one of the most important descions cardinals have to made in their lifes for the church and their own people...

This time we do agree!

 

[Clausius2]

Priests not allowed to marry? No female priests?

What would change, why wouldn't it be the same? If it would change it means that the footing of the people is not very strong when it is influenced by such factors, in my opinion.

Does that mean that females should not be allowed to have careers, or just not religious careers? Does that mean that females should not be allowed to become president either?

Don't forget there are others religions which have less consideration toward women than it has the catholic church.

Let's refrain from posting opinions about different religions.

I hope this time you are not saying this because of me.

 

[marlon]

They elected a Nazi Pope.Ain't that CUTE...?

Daniel.

Untrue...read your history dexter...do you know how children were 'selected' to join the HitlerJugend ?

You cannot judge a person because of his nation's political leaders...In that case, we could do just the same with YOU... I am sure which person i am referring to

marlon

 

[Clausius2]

Yes, you're absolutely right.
The catholic church has a long history of not caring a whit about REAL lives and actual human happiness. Rather, they are interested in fantasy lives dreamed up by deluded priests.

From my point of view I think catholic church has had such long history of careless about human life, especially in the Middle Age, although it is true that current catholic church is not the same than the one at the time of Torquemada. They have evolutionated to modern thinkings, or at least this was the purpose of J.Paul II. We do know they have some ways of life and opinions which seem to remain in the past, but the current rithm of convergence is valuable.

I don't like you talk in present tense, Arildno. There are too many priests who go to Africa to take care to poor people without making nothing a month, only for the desire of helping. Also, the priests of small churches (like the one of my village) desires to help people in order to provide them additional wearing or food.

Such church is neccesary nowadays in a world filled of insolidarity.

 

[marlon]

I don't like you talk in present tense, Arildno. There are too many priests who go to Africa to take care to poor people without making nothing a month, only for the desire of helping. Also, the priests of small churches (like the one of my village) desires to help people in order to provide them additional wearing or food.

Such church is neccesary nowadays in a world filled of insolidarity.

I totally agree with Clausius...

marlon

 

[arildno]

From my point of view I think catholic church has had such long history of careless about human life, especially in the Middle Age, although it is true that current catholic church is not the same than the one at the time of Torquemada. They have evolutionated to modern thinkings, or at least this was the purpose of J.Paul II. We do know they have some ways of life and opinions which seem to remain in the past, but the current rithm of convergence is valuable.

I don't like you talk in present tense, Arildno. There are too many priests who go to Africa to take care to poor people without making nothing a month, only for the desire of helping. Also, the priests of small churches (like the one of my village) desires to help people in order to provide them additional wearing or food.

Such church is neccesary nowadays in a world filled of insolidarity.

I agree; I was way out of line here.
The fact that I feel very strongly about the abortion issue, I should not blind myself to the great work that many of the ordinary clergy is involved in.
Sorry..

 

[Clausius2]

Sorry..

You don't need to apologize, friend. We know you have a strongly logical mind, and you're able to view each situation in an unbiased way.

The catholic chuch has negative points (like everything in this life) and positive ones. I choose the positive ones: charity, helping, morality values... and reject the negative ones: out of fashion thinkings, horrible crimes in Middle Age,...

It is for this reason I am not an active (practicant) believer. I have gone few times to a church (maybe 6 or 7 times in all my life and some of them was doing tourism!). But I respect the historical background of the catholic church which can be considered a vital point in the european culture and history, and because Spain's history is very much relationed with Catholicism. The only thing I am not going to do is to criticize church only by political issues, as some people of left tendence are prone to do.

 

[cronxeh]

are you people living ON this planet??

 

[marlon]

are you people living ON this planet??

no, that's the question we should ask to you. Do you know anything about European history ? The content of your posts suggests that you do not. That is not an insult but don't judge something you know nothing about

marlon

 

[Clausius2]

I totally agree with Clausius...

marlon

In some way you are a traitor. Let me to explain it.

In the 16th century Phillip II and his father Charles V, who were kings of the Spanish Imperium, tried to export Catholicism to Flandes and that zone of current Belgium-Netherlands. The protestant leader prince William Orange headed the resistance against spanish army. Orange defeated Phillip II, who was a complete dumb, and he avoided the instauration of Catholicism there.

Nowadays a guy of Belgium supports Catholicism, what could Orange say if he hears you?.

 

[cronxeh]

you right, i should have added 'ON this time' as well. perhaps you are used to missing the point entirely, on number of things, for number of years.

 

[Clausius2]

are you people living ON this planet??

Be accurate and expose your reasons why you ask it. But don't post short comments without any sense.

 

[cronxeh]

If i am to provide my reasons I would be violating the forum rules, and putting down a few billion people while I'm at it.

 

[Clausius2]

If i am to provide my reasons I would be violating the forum rules, and putting down a few billion people while I'm at it.

If you're unable to explain your argument without violating forum rules, then give up posting here.

On the other hand, I hope you have enough intelligence to explain it in a non offensive language.

Come on. I am waiting.

Hurry up, I have to take supper!

 

[cronxeh]

It is not so much offensive, but the reality of things would at least make the believers jump off a cliff. Do I have enough intelligence to explain the whole 'concept' I have in my head? No. Does it violate the forum rules? Yes - it is talking about religions. Now you might think oh this guy has no idea what he is talking about, right? Consider the great many works of people like John Allegro and alike, combined with all the religious inconsistancies as well as number of religions, the effects of such religions throughout history, and particularly of aforementioned religion and its representative (both of them), and you would be hard pressed. But even when the evidence is presented, and this is where my 'putting down' part comes in - the involved parties refused the evidence at hand, and blindly, keep on to their believes

 

[Evo]

I hope this time you are not saying this because of me.

No, not you.

And thank you too cronxeh for remaining within the guidelines.

I have to be gone for a couple of hours, I trust when I return that the thread will not have burned down and there will be no bloodshed?

 

[stoned]

pretty cool how they elected a new, german, nazism-raised pope, by hitler's birthday

what is wrong with being born german ? and by the way, not all germans were nazis.
during WW2 Ratzinger did not have choice all youths were taken into military against their will.(read your history books Dude!)
man ! seams to me you have grudge against germans ! it is 60 years allready and you people still demonizing Germans !

 

[Clausius2]

It is not so much offensive, but the reality of things would at least make the believers jump off a cliff. Do I have enough intelligence to explain the whole 'concept' I have in my head? No. Does it violate the forum rules? Yes - it is talking about religions. Now you might think oh this guy has no idea what he is talking about, right? Consider the great many works of people like John Allegro and alike, combined with all the religious inconsistancies as well as number of religions, the effects of such religions throughout history, and particularly of aforementioned religion and its representative (both of them), and you would be hard pressed. But even when the evidence is presented, and this is where my 'putting down' part comes in - the involved parties refused the evidence at hand, and blindly, keep on to their believes

You mean believers are somehow blind people, and religion has caused a lot of conflicts throughout history.

My opinion is not the same. Sometimes it is needed to believe in something/someone. Human beings are prone to do so: we believe in God (those who are believers), or we believe in ourselves and our capacity of solving some difficult situations, another times we believe in a friend, and also we believe in the luckiness. Believing in something keeps us on being somehow alive.

In particular, believing in God is a shared culture of several world civilizations. All catholics are gathered in this act, and have at least something in common. Religion can be described also as an element of union, not of breaking. It is certain too it has caused a lot of wars, but it is one of the negative points.

As I have mentioned above, religion has both negative and positive points. I am aware enough like you to see the negative ones, BUT you don't seem as aware as me to see the positive ones.

 

[mapper]

My step dads father (guess my grandpa) was in the german military as a kid and fought for the nazis. My moms dad fought for the Canadian military. Hows that for funny. That one day their kids would hook up to have me.

 

[Dooga Blackrazor]

what is wrong with being born german ? and by the way, not all germans were nazis.
during WW2 Ratzinger did not have choice all youths were taken into military against their will.(read your history books Dude!)
man ! seams to me you have grudge against germans ! it is 60 years allready and you people still demonizing Germans !

If the Pope wasn't catholic, the fact that he was forced into service would be a reasonable excuse for him being a Nazi, however, he is catholic. If he was truly a man of God, then shouldn't he have have always believed in God; furthermore, since he is Christian, shouldn't he have put his morals above his life. After all, Christianity believes those who are truly brave and divine go to heaven while, from the perspective of the Catholic church, those who don't confirm to the gospel are sentenced to damnation. I'm not well educated on the Bible so if there is an explanation, I'd be interested in hearing it. I'm assuming it is just hypocrisy on the part of the Church, but, as I said before, I'm not a religion expert.

 

[revelator]

I think it makes a difference that he wasn't a grown man at the time.

 

[stoned]

imagine if the new pope was from France.

 

[marlon]

In some way you are a traitor. Let me to explain it.

In the 16th century Phillip II and his father Charles V, who were kings of the Spanish Imperium, tried to export Catholicism to Flandes and that zone of current Belgium-Netherlands. The protestant leader prince William Orange headed the resistance against spanish army. Orange defeated Phillip II, who was a complete dumb, and he avoided the instauration of Catholicism there.

Nowadays a guy of Belgium supports Catholicism, what could Orange say if he hears you?.

As a matter of fact you are not completely correct here. It's actually the northern part of what we call Belgium that was the upper catholic geographic boundary in those days, so your point is a bit, err, 'doubtable'.

regards
marlon

 

[infidel]

If the Pope wasn't catholic, the fact that he was forced into service would be a reasonable excuse for him being a Nazi, however, he is catholic. If he was truly a man of God, then shouldn't he have have always believed in God;

St. Paul, second in the church after Peter, was a man of God who persecuted (and sometimes killed) Christians for many years before his conversion on the road to Damascus.

furthermore, since he is Christian, shouldn't he have put his morals above his life. After all, Christianity believes those who are truly brave and divine go to heaven while, from the perspective of the Catholic church, those who don't confirm to the gospel are sentenced to damnation.

Wow, you don't expect much, do you?? No one of whatever religious stripe knows what they would do until they are in such a situation. And really, who can be faulted for abandoning their ideals to save their lives. It's easy to think otherwise in our comfortable little lives where the threat of death does not lurk around every door.

Not everyone who is devout is able to rise to the challenge to do the right thing every time, especially when their life is in danger. That's why martyrs are especially revered.

 

[Smurf]

imagine if the new pope was from France.

didn't you say that before?

 

[infidel]

imagine if the new pope was from France.

didn't you say that before?

What do you expect? He's stoned.

 

[stoned]

What do you expect? He's stoned.

I did ? sorry about it.
anyway, I'm so afraid of dying can't stop thinking about death.

 

[ricin]

If I was in the conclave I would have written in Father Guido Sarducci. Imagine him as pope...

 

[stoned]

do you guys know that Bush family were in business with Hitler just up to the war, General Motors also and countless other big names not to mention American Banks.
how about this, Arnold Schwarzenneger was more involved with nazis than Ratzinger, and I did not hear much criticizm of Arnold.

 

[Moses]

So God will get us back will he? Not the most caring of things is he?

And even if god exists, i can be sure we can just ignore 'it'. I mean, what kind of God gives tsunamis to its creation?

Well, He got Authority above His creation. I do agree if he want to destruct all His universe, which He made by Himself, no one can stop Him. However, we are lucky that He is Murciful. According to the informations i knew, God created life and death to test us humans who will be doing good deeds, we are not here forever, Life is just an Exam, not the final destination. Being thankful and pateint won't hurt, resist disasters is great, stop curroption is great too.

Chilling out required,

P.S: I guess if God want by one stone to get more than one bird [aka 'punish' some ppl in this life, and 'test' other people how will they react buy to the same event, even they don't 'deserve' this issue by their deeds] is not a bad thing.

 

[1123581321]

I got an idea, how about you give the new pope a go, and if he sucks, then you can complain about him. I didn't even knew who this ratzinger guy was before JPII died, and I'm catholic. Also, he didn't have a choice to be in the nazi millitary or hitler youth, but he did defect from whatever he was in, risking his life. Do not be a sheep and believe whatever CNN or BBC or whatever. Do some thinking, and look for facts from a few different places before coming up with an opinion. Sheep follow whoever is out front, and if the guy outfront jumps off a cliff, they will too, because they follow blindly.

Fibonacci

 

[cronxeh]

i'm catholic.

Sheep follow whoever is out front, and if the guy outfront jumps off a cliff, they will too, because they follow blindly.

Aren't we being a little hypocritical

 

[1123581321]

Aren't we being a little hypocritical

You. my friend (if i assume "i'm catholic" and "don't be a sheep" is what you see as hypocrytical) are putting words in my mouth. First, i used the phrase "i'm catholic" when discribing what i knew about ratzinger, not being a sheep. and i am not being a sheep, if i thought he sucked, i would tell you so, not pretend to like him because he i am catholic. You could call me a hypocryt if i was pretending to like him, just because he was the pope. You are just running out of things to use in defence of your arguement, and are taking cheep shots to make me look like a stupid bum, just like you did in the other thread about the former pope. You, my friend, are stupid and do not really know anything at all, except that you want the church to die, which would happen quicker if there was a left pope. WHat happened after Vatican II? Lots of people left the church because many in the church, especially european catholics, do not like liberalism in the church. They like tradition, not new fads. Liberalism is killing the church, not helping it, and you are one of the following: too foolish to realize that or you know well that that's what would happen and want it to happen.

Fibonacci

 

[cronxeh]

im an Atheist.

 

[BicycleTree]

I think this is a wonderful story:
http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4116

 

[Moses]

Don't forget there are others religions which have less consideration toward women than it has the catholic church.



I hope this time you are not saying this because of me.

and hope not becuase of me too

Well, just a question of curiosity, I guess Catholic Church is not a religion, its an institute run a religion [well, from my side i see Catholisicm as a sect of Christianity, not as a 'separate' religion, and other sects as other religions ...etc] is that true?

I guess Monique point is abuot giving women more rights in the insistute, since if they thing the religion opress them , then another actions shuold be taken. An example in my mind is what i saw while i was in the middle east from some Muslims Imams in the villages who sometimes opress the women, by mistakenyl mixing religion by tradition, while the elite scholars of muslims are totally against it. Women equality with men are so obvuis issue and no need to discuess it. However, equality never means sameness [u know, i can't be pregnant! but its fair i guess that males can never be mothers since we can be fathers ]

An important point to mention though, I DO THINK that some actions in religion are done in a certain way, so it shows loyality to God, e.g. Why Christians go on Sundays, and not Tuesdays to church? And it is just becuase the believe they should do so. One can argue the same, that some religion functional actions should be done by men leading the process [e.g. mass, ceremony...etc] and i don't find any problem with that. Since its not opressing against any Gender.