Why do EM waves of longer wavelengths spread out more?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the reasons why electromagnetic (EM) waves of longer wavelengths spread out more than those of shorter wavelengths. Participants explore various principles and theories related to wave behavior, particularly focusing on diffraction and the uncertainty principle, while considering both electromagnetic waves and other types of waves.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that the spreading of waves is related to diffraction, a principle first proposed by Huygens, which describes how waves behave when encountering obstacles or gaps.
  • Others argue that the uncertainty principle provides insight into why longer wavelengths spread out more, as it relates to the momentum distribution and propagation direction of the waves.
  • A participant notes that the phenomenon of spreading is not unique to EM waves but is a characteristic of all wave types, emphasizing the importance of wave mechanics.
  • One participant highlights the mathematical relationship in Fraunhofer diffraction, indicating that the angular width of the diffraction pattern increases with longer wavelengths.
  • Another participant expresses confusion regarding the application of diffraction principles in free space versus in the presence of obstacles, suggesting that antennas can be viewed similarly to slits in this context.
  • Some contributions emphasize the mathematical patterns underlying wave behavior, suggesting that uniform and isotropic propagation media are necessary for these principles to apply.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on a single explanation for the spreading of longer wavelengths. Multiple competing views are presented, including diffraction, the uncertainty principle, and the mathematical underpinnings of wave behavior.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of the topic, with some noting that the discussion involves various assumptions about wave behavior and the conditions under which these principles apply. The relationship between wavelength and diffraction is highlighted, but the exact nature of these interactions remains open to interpretation.

ThunderLight
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Why do longer wavelengths spread out more than shorter wavelengths?
What is the physics principle/law which explains why radio waves spread out more than optic waves in free space?
 
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The way that all waves basically behave (EM / sound / ocean etc) when they encounter an obstacle or a gap in a wall, is exactly the same and it is related to wavelength. The process is called Diffraction. Huygens (born 1629) first proposed that you could determine how a wave would progress, thought in terms of 'secondary wavelets', which are constantly forming on the 'wave front' and then add together to form the next step of the wave. Search "Huygens Construction" to see loads of links. In that wiki link, you can see the basics of the process, which later developed into the modern theory of diffraction. The effect scales with wavelength so a wide aperture of object will have the same effect of 'spreading' a wave with long wavelength as a narrow obstruction of similar shape on a proportionally shorter wavelength. Radio waves are just the same as light waves but the wavelength is many millions of times longer.
 
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The reason why a beam of visible light spreads out less than a beam of radio waves of the same area can be understood from the uncertainty principle.

The uncertainty principle tells us that waves cannot be both well-confined in position and well-confined in momentum.
The amount that a beam of light spreads depends on its momentum distribution which gives you the distribution of directions of propagation.
With a really short wavelength (i.e., a higher momentum), the same uncertainty in momentum corresponds to a smaller uncertainty in propagation direction.
Therefore, a tightly confined beam will have a larger spread of directions if it is of a longer wavelength.

In this way, one can see that a narrow beam of long wavelength radiation must spread out faster than a short wavelength beam.
 
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jfizzix said:
The reason why a beam of visible light spreads out less than a beam of radio waves of the same area can be understood from the uncertainty principle.
Dear old Huygens didn't know about QM when he came up with his Mechanical explanation. Both models have their place, though. HUP is basically an inequality so that makes it difficult to be as precise as Huygens. :smile:
 
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ThunderLight said:
Why do longer wavelengths spread out more than shorter wavelengths?
What is the physics principle/law which explains why radio waves spread out more than optic waves in free space?

I'm going to tee off what sophiecentaur has asked, which is have you see examples of wave behavior in a ripple tank? What you are asking is NOT unique to EM wave. It is a property of diffraction in ALL waves.

We can painfully go over Huygens principles, etc., but this particular aspect needs to be clarified so that you know the underlying principle involved here, which is wave mechanics, not just EM wave.

Zz.
 
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ThunderLight said:
What is the physics principle/law
It's almost more a matter of Maths than Physics, actually because it is just Patterns following a basic mathematical axiom.
It is strange that the same Maths can apply to so many different phenomena. - right down to two sheep plus two sheep makes four sheep and the same for lollipops and pounds.
All that's necessary for the wave thing to be common is that the propagation medium needs to be uniform and isotropic. When it's not, you get other effects as well.
 
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If you're familiar with the equation for Fraunhofer diffraction from a single slit, the first minimum occurs at an angle θ given by sinθ = λ/w where λ is the wavelength and w is the slit width. The angular width of the central diffraction peak would be 2θ. For a given slit width, the larger the value of λ the wider the central peak will be. But it's best to think in terms of the ratio λ/w.
 
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The thing that confused me was the fact that this Phenomena is usually expressed from the point of view of "Obstacles" and "Slits", while I'm speaking of "Free Space" and "No Obstacles". But, if the Antenna itself that radiates the beam would be considered like that slit, where radiation is produced from it, then I understand.

Thank you all.
Please let me know if my above understanding is not correct.
I will need to go through the related formulas now.
 
ThunderLight said:
The thing that confused me was the fact that this Phenomena is usually expressed from the point of view of "Obstacles" and "Slits", while I'm speaking of "Free Space" and "No Obstacles". But, if the Antenna itself that radiates the beam would be considered like that slit, where radiation is produced from it, then I understand.

Thank you all.
Please let me know if my above understanding is not correct.
I will need to go through the related formulas now.
Yes. It's like having a hole in space, letting the EM energy through. That analogy is a bit over-simple because the effective size of that hole is much wider than just the thin metal wire but it holds.
You can think of the diffraction pattern of an infinitely wide slit (i.e. free space) as having a max just in the direction of propagation.
 

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