Why do we need two representations of SU(3)

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the necessity of having two representations of SU(3) in the context of particle physics, particularly regarding quarks and their interactions. Participants explore the implications of these representations for understanding mesons, color charge in quantum chromodynamics (QCD), and the mathematical structure of SU(3) itself.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants discuss how the conjugate representation of SU(3) contributes to forming a vector space of dimension 3, while SU(3) alone does not achieve this.
  • There is a mathematical breakdown of the product of representations, specifically how 3 x 3 leads to different components, including a sextet and a conjugate representation.
  • One participant questions the origin of the number 6 in the decomposition of the product of representations.
  • Another participant elaborates on the decomposition of the tensor product of the fundamental representation, detailing the symmetric and antisymmetric components and their respective representation spaces.
  • From a physics perspective, the necessity of these representations is linked to the color-charge space in QCD, emphasizing the role of antiquarks and their corresponding "anticolors."
  • Some participants suggest external resources for further understanding, including group theory applications in quantum field theory.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the mathematical aspects of SU(3) representations, with some clarifying points while others raise questions. No consensus is reached on the interpretations or implications of the representations discussed.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the need for clarity on the definitions and properties of the representations, as well as the assumptions underlying the mathematical decompositions. The discussion reflects ongoing exploration rather than settled conclusions.

Jelly-bean
Messages
2
Reaction score
0
TL;DR
if we use up, down and staring quarks and their own antiparticle we can create the Eightfold way and understand mesons by the hyper charge and isospin projections.
Summary: if we use up, down and staring quarks and their own antiparticle we can create the Eightfold way and understand mesons by the hyper charge and isospin projections.

I don't understand how the conjugate representation of SU(3) allows us to create a vector space of dimension 3, while SU(3) by itself cannot.
 
Physics news on Phys.org
You have three quarks, each in a triplet representation. 3 x 3 x 3 = 3 x (6 x 3bar) = (3 x 6) + (3 x 3bar) = 10 + 8 + 8 + 1. One of the octets is the eightfold way.
 
Jelly-bean said:
staring quarks
Now there's a caption begging for a cartoon. :oldtongue:
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Jelly-bean
Vanadium 50 said:
You have three quarks, each in a triplet representation. 3 x 3 x 3 = 3 x (6 x 3bar) = (3 x 6) + (3 x 3bar) = 10 + 8 + 8 + 1. One of the octets is the eightfold way.
sorry I don't think I get the second step. Where did the 6 come from?
 
Jelly-bean said:
Where did the 6 come from?

The algebra of SU(3). 3x3 has 9 elements, and they fall into the sextet and 3bar representations.
 
q^{a} \left( = u , d , s \right) \in \{ 3 \}, a 3-vector in the fundamental (or defining) representation space \{ 3 \} of \mbox{SU}(3). The 9-component tensor q^{a}q^{b} \in \{ 3 \} \otimes \{ 3 \} can be decomposed as follows q^{a}q^{b} = S^{ab} + A^{ab} , where S^{ab} = S^{ba} = \frac{1}{2} \left( q^{a}q^{b} + q^{b}q^{a}\right) , is symmetric (therefore 6-component) tensor, and A^{ab} = - A^{ba} = \frac{1}{2} \left( q^{a}q^{b} - q^{b}q^{a}\right), is anti-symmetric (i.e., 3-component) tensor. Since S^{ab} and A^{ab} don’t mix under \mbox{SU}(3) transformation, they must belong to different representation spaces: S^{ab} \in D^{6} \equiv \{ 6 \}, and A^{ab} \in D^{3} \equiv \{ \bar{3}\}. In order to complete the proof of \{ 3 \} \otimes \{ 3 \} = \{ 6 \} \oplus \{ \bar{3} \}, you need to know the answers to the following 2 questions: The tensor A^{ab} has only 3 independent components, i.e., it belongs to a 3-dimensional vector space, which we denoted by D^{3}. So, 1) why did we identify D^{3} with the conjugate representation space \{ \bar{3} \} and not with the space \{ 3 \}? In other words, where did the bar on the 3 come from? And 2) how do we know that D^{6} \equiv \{ 6 \} is an irreducible space?
 
Last edited:
From a physics point of view we need it, e.g., for QCD's color-charge space, i.e., we want to have antiquarks carrying the "anticolors" of the quarks' colors.
 
Try reading the Appendix on group theory in A. Zee's "Quantum Field Theory in a Nutshell" @Jelly-bean . I know a good few people who found it helpful for clearing up things like why ##3\otimes 3 = 6 \oplus \bar{3}##. It's basically about two things:
  1. Symmetric and Antisymmetric tensors
  2. The Levi-Cevita symbol converting between upper and lower indicies
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: vanhees71
Another good source is the old classic by Lipkin: "Lie groups for pedestrians".
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
2K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
3K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
4K
  • · Replies 11 ·
Replies
11
Views
4K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
6K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
4K
  • · Replies 3 ·
Replies
3
Views
3K
  • · Replies 26 ·
Replies
26
Views
6K
  • · Replies 8 ·
Replies
8
Views
4K