Why Does Friction Work Appear Negative in Dynamics Problems?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of work done by friction in dynamics problems, particularly in the context of specific examples from a homework assignment. Participants are exploring the signs associated with work calculations and the implications of energy conservation principles.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the work done by friction is represented as negative in specific examples, seeking clarification on the values and signs used in the calculations.
  • Another participant suggests that the confusion may stem from the layout of the solution and proposes considering the first law of thermodynamics to understand the energy changes involved.
  • The explanation provided indicates that work done against friction reduces the final energy of the system, thus necessitating a negative sign when placed on the final energy side of the equation.
  • There is a mention of the terms Δ and d, with a participant expressing confusion about their definitions and the reasoning behind the negative sign associated with them.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express varying levels of understanding regarding the signs of work done by friction and the definitions of certain variables. The discussion does not reach a consensus, as confusion remains about the orientation of forces and energy in the problem.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings of the problem setup, the definitions of variables Δ and d, and the application of the first law of thermodynamics in this context. The discussion does not resolve these ambiguities.

xzibition8612
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Homework Statement



See attachments.

Homework Equations





The Attempt at a Solution


In Example 2.11, why is the work for friction -6(10+Δ)? Why is it negative 6?

In Example 2.12, again why is the friction -6, and then where did (Δ-d) come from? I thought Δ is the distance the spring is initially compressed, and d is the distance of its maximum extension? So why minus? And also in this example why is there a negative sign in front of the work for weight? Totally confused about orientations in this problem.
 

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Too hard to read your attachments.
 
you sure do live up to your moniker. mods please ban this guy
 
I can see where the way the solution is laid out that it might be confusing.


I always look at it from the first law of thermodynamics. With this problem, consider energy at the start and then at the end of the process. Put the terms on opposite sides of the equals sign.

Remember that if the system is doing work (such as overcoming friction) it will subtract from the FINAL energy of the system so it should be a negative sign if on that side of the equation.

If work is done on the system, it will add to the final energy of the system so it will add to the FINAL energy in the system. Therefore if you wish to place it on the INITIAL energy side of the equation, it must be negative.

If you think about it in these terms, you'll keep your signs correct.
 

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