News Wikileaks release classified documents

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The recent release of over 90,000 classified military documents by Wikileaks has sparked significant controversy, catching the Pentagon unprepared for the implications of this information. The documents reportedly include after-action reports that could potentially harm military operations and reveal sensitive tactics. Critics argue that Wikileaks is biased and has previously misrepresented information, raising concerns about the credibility of the released content. The discussion also touches on the ethical implications of leaking classified information, with some viewing it as a necessary act for transparency, while others see it as a betrayal of trust that could endanger lives. The overall sentiment reflects a deep divide over the balance between government secrecy and the public's right to know.
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Wooooo, someone just unleashed a treasure trove of classified documents to the public about Iraq and Afghanistan. And the ****storm will begin right about...now.
 
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Been going on all day. Caught the Pentagon flat-footed, since it will probably be weeks before they can review 90+K documents. They'll also be looking to see what HASN'T been released, because he has even more documents.
 


It's funny to see how we live in a world where borderline-conspiracy theorist-sites like this actually are just a little bit more veracious than newspapers and a hell more than governments.

I think that sci-fi series Earth: Final Conflict could be interpreted as a deeper message in this. Clearly the Taelons were duplicit and scheming, but in the end, they were no more than our own human leaders. Like Michael Patrick Flaherty said 'What is it with you and the truth? Why did you join politics if you care so much about the truth?'
 


Indeed. It looks like the helicopter gunship killing Iraqi civilians was just the start, I wonder what other dirty laundry they've been sitting on...
 


aquitaine said:
Indeed. It looks like the helicopter gunship killing Iraqi civilians was just the start, I wonder what other dirty laundry they've been sitting on...
My maxim on this is:

A: Most conspiracy theories are far fetched nonsense.
B: There are still a lot more conspiracies going on than there are theories.

Most conspiracies and cover-ups never gain a theory, the moment it gains a theory and its true, proving it is straightforward and it becomes a historical fact for the most part.

That professional administrators are willing to cover these things up implies that the chance of people finding out, together with the negative backlash is actually worth it, it's just so low, so you can bet there is a lot more stuff that's never going to be uncovered. That, or our world leaders are really bad at making strategically calculated decisions, either way, it does not look bright.
 


i don't see what the problem is. just pull the internet kill switch, right?
 


 
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Aside from making it appear that the Afghani's can't be trusted to positions of power, what, exctly, was revealed? (yes, I've read all that was reported today)

BTW, wikileaks is not considered an unbiased site, as was proven in their doctoring, voice-overs, and incorrect, misleading commentary of prior pieces.
 


Evo said:
BTW, wikileaks is not considered an unbiased site, as was proven in their doctoring, voice-overs, and incorrect, misleading commentary of prior pieces.
Note, the site for this info dump contains some pretty heavily biased editorializing - not a lot of it, just enough to let you know what his stance is. I realize the guy who runs the site just can't help himself, but I can't understand why he doesn't see that he undermines his own credibility by not simply dumping the information with a factual explanation of what it is.
 
  • #10


Russia is probably retaliating for US public and embarrassing disclosure of Russian spies.
 
  • #11


humanino said:

Note: he is the primary author of the site.
 
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  • #12
I have read that wikileaks is an anti war group? can't say for sure. This won't be about the veracity of Wikileaks. It will be about the 90,000 military documents.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20011710-503544.html
 
  • #13
edward said:
I have read that wikileaks is an anti war group? can't say for sure. This won't be about the veracity of Wikileaks. It will be about the 90,000 military documents.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20011710-503544.html
Yeah, the wikileaks on Afghanastan is a big yawn. Is anyone really surprised that the locals are taking money meant for orphanges and spending it on themselves? That local Afghani's are trying to extort money from UN Convoy's? That local Afghani's are saying they are under attack from insurgents and need ammunition, only to be found to have sold the ammunition in a local bazarre? It goes on and on.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/07/26/world/asia/26warlogs.html?no_interstitial
 
  • #14


edward said:
I have read that wikileaks is an anti war group? can't say for sure.
I saw that quote too and though I don't think they make any direct claims about what they post (just implied ones), I think it is a relatively safe conclusion.
This won't be about the veracity of Wikileaks. It will be about the 90,000 military documents.
Mostly, anyway.
 
  • #15


Evo said:
BTW, wikileaks is not considered an unbiased site, as was proven in their doctoring, voice-overs, and incorrect, misleading commentary of prior pieces.

I agree that they're not unbiased. Can you source the doctoring for me? I hadn't heard that one.
 
  • #16


I cannot comment on the quality of information it presents but certainly can see the need of it. Should we let the governments decide if some controversial information should be made available to the public?

However, I believe these 90K documents might not include any highly controversial material.
 
  • #17


rootX said:
I cannot comment on the quality of information it presents but certainly can see the need of it. Should we let the governments decide if some controversial information should be made available to the public?
If it is classified, absolutely yes!

It's my understanding that these documents are after action reports by soldiers. The wikileaks editor says they have a policy for minimizing harm, but they don't eliminate it: the release of after action reports can be very damaging to the war effort. Based on the mischaracterizations of the helicopter shooting tape they made and the anti-war/anti-government stance of the editor, I honestly don't think this guy can see beyond the propaganda value to the real military value of such information. He loves this stuff because of the propaganda, but he doesn't even see he's giving the enemy detailed information about our tactics.

Some information is just plain not fit for public consumption because the general public simply doesn't have the frame of reference needed to propertly process the information. It's a case where if misinterpreted, more facts can actually result in less understanding. His focusing on the laughing of the soldiers in the chopper video is a clear indication that he is simply unable to process what he's seeing.

By the same token, if people saw what happened after being put under anesthetic in an oral surgeon's office, there'd be even more fear of dentists than there already is.
 
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  • #18


I'm wondering how someone downloaded that much information thinking that they wouldn't get caught. It's only a matter of time before the military figures out who gave that info to Wikileaks. It may just be obvious day to day issues but, it's still classified. The person who did this is a traitor.
 
  • #19


russ_watters said:
If it is classified, absolutely yes!

It's my understanding that these documents are after action reports by soldiers. The wikileaks editor says they have a policy for minimizing harm, but they don't eliminate it: the release of after action reports can be very damaging to the war effort. Based on the mischaracterizations of the helicopter shooting tape they made and the anti-war/anti-government stance of the editor, I honestly don't think this guy can see beyond the propaganda value to the real military value of such information. He loves this stuff because of the propaganda, but he doesn't even see he's giving the enemy detailed information about our tactics.

Some information is just plain not fit for public consumption because the general public simply doesn't have the frame of reference needed to propertly process the information. It's a case where if misinterpreted, more facts can actually result in less understanding. His focusing on the laughing of the soldiers in the chopper video is a clear indication that he is simply unable to process what he's seeing.

By the same token, if people saw what happened after being put under anesthetic in an oral surgeon's office, there'd be even more fear of dentists than there already is.
Yes but in all fairness, is a government really in the best position to objectively judge this? They can say this of all info that is damaging. If any, this should be judged by a supreme court.

Also, this is democracy, there is freedom of the press to criticize the administration, and you get elected by popular vote of laymen who indeed lack the finer understanding of politics and military strategy. The same argument can be raised against all news really.

Of course said democracy and popular vote are the only reason a cowboy with sub-mediocre intelligence got to be the world leader.

Borg said:
I'm wondering how someone downloaded that much information thinking that they wouldn't get caught. It's only a matter of time before the military figures out who gave that info to Wikileaks. It may just be obvious day to day issues but, it's still classified. The person who did this is a traitor.

[PLAIN]http://www.andystrekpage.de/garak01.jpg

Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder

I never really got this strange fixation people have with 'treason' really, but I'm not a nationalist or patriot and never got that either, so...
 
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  • #20


ZQrn said:
sub-mediocre intelligence

Citation, please.
 
  • #21


ZQrn said:
Treason, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder

I never really got this strange fixation people have with 'treason' really, but I'm not a nationalist or patriot and never got that either, so...

It isn't a patriotic fixation or something in the eye of the beholder. People who have access to classified documents sign agreements that they will not divulge classified information. Breaking that agreement is grounds to be arrested for treason. That is made clear to them - you break the agreement, you get arrested.
 
  • #22


CRGreathouse said:
Citation, please.
Oh wow, someone who believes intelligence is more than a subjective judgement, carry on, carry on.

How am I supposed to provide a citation for this? If some psychologist or journalist or political commentator says it it's suddenly true by that authority? Please, calling some one sub-mediocre in intelligent is as subjective as calling a film bad. And I believe that I am entitled to state both of my opinions on the respective matters. Kind of like calling something 'treason', can you cite that? No, it's an opinion, even though you didn't say 'I think it's treason', this is just reading context. If X says 'That's beautiful', surely X means 'I think it's beautiful' in the absence of a metre to objective beauty.

Borg said:
It isn't a patriotic fixation or something in the eye of the beholder. People who have access to classified documents sign agreements that they will not divulge classified information. Breaking that agreement is grounds to be arrested for treason. That is made clear to them - you break the agreement, you get arrested.
Sure, but the people that don't reveal it get tried for war crimes by the enemy afterwards and then they say you should have stood up against it.

Besides, the philosophical part of it all is that you can always say 'Yeah, but I never agreed to live up to my agreements' and then displace that but 'Yeah, but I never agreed to live up to my agreement to live up to agreements ...' et cetera et cetera.

In the end, it's not so much an issue of right as it is of might. The US government commands a military arm sufficient to compel people into doing what they want, that's how leadership works on a world scale, a government rules by might, not by right.

And some would argue that in this case, the moral code of informers the electorate so that they can make a more informed decision outweighs the moral code of honouring agreements.

And in any case, treason is in the eye of the beholder, I mean, no one considers Deep Throat a traitor, but I'm sure he broke some agreement by divulging what Nixon did. In the end, keeping these things classified from the public is perceive by some as dirty politics, especially when you know it's going to make a lot of people think that the invasion of Aghanistan which you were so adamant about it being a good plan turns out to be worse than you expected. Politicians are not that good at eating their crow. Blair will swim the channel before he says 'Okay, I was wrong, I thought he had WMD's and was an immediate threat, he wasn't, I made a costly mistake.', instead he'll just invent another supposed reason why he invaded.
 
  • #23


By definition, a top secret document risks
Quote by Wikipedia:
"exceptionally grave damage" to national security if made publicly available.​

And since treason is
Quote by Wikipedia:
the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of betrayal of one's sovereign or nation.​

...


ZQrn said:
How am I supposed to provide a citation for this?
Maybe you shouldn't resort to juvenile name-calling then. :wink:
 
  • #24


Hurkyl said:
By definition, a top secret document risks
Quote by Wikipedia:
"exceptionally grave damage" to national security if made publicly available.​

And since treason is
Quote by Wikipedia:
the crime that covers some of the more serious acts of betrayal of one's sovereign or nation.​

...
I think our concept of 'definition' is a bit different, in my world a definition is devoid is vague terms like 'exceptionally grave damage', also, citation that the damage to national security is exceptionally grave?

Also 'serious' 'betrayal', 'crime', these terms are all in the eye of the beholder I trust we can agree on. One man's traitor is another man's hero.

If you can't, then maybe you should stick to the facts, rather than juvenile name-calling. :wink:
I said I found a world leader stupid in a politics board. I am not allowed to criticize a world leader on his by my perceived intellectual shortcomings for the job?

Do I need to provide a citation when I say that Michael Bay is a terrible director too? Does 'Yeah, the wikileaks on Afghanastan is a big yawn.' require a citation? Of course not, it's a subjective comment.
 
  • #25


ZQrn said:
I am not allowed to criticize a world leader on his by my perceived intellectual shortcomings for the job?
Of course you're (generally) allowed to. But that doesn't give you any protection whatsoever from being called on it. :wink:
 
  • #26


Hurkyl said:
Of course you're (generally) allowed to. But that doesn't give you any protection whatsoever from being called on it. :wink:
Sure, but I just think that asking for a citation for that is pretty strange, I mean, I can give one, it wouldn't be too difficult to find some political authority who calls Bush not that bright, or some psychologist who's estimate of Bush's intelligence is not that high. But what does that prove?

I'm sure you can find a political analyst or a psychologist that says the reverse, namely.
 
  • #27


ZQrn said:
Bush not that bright, or some psychologist who's estimate of Bush's intelligence is not that high.
Isn't that classified?
Presumably it would cause grave danger to national security if your enemies found out that your leader was an idiot - Doonesbury should be arrested for treason at once.
 
  • #28


mgb_phys said:
Isn't that classified?
Presumably it would cause grave danger to national security if your enemies found out that your leader was an idiot - Doonesbury should be arrested for treason at once.
Oh bravo, I'm laughing some rudimentary organs off.

Other than that, it shows that it's in the eye of the beholder, yeah.
 
  • #29


CRGreathouse said:
I agree that they're not unbiased. Can you source the doctoring for me? I hadn't heard that one.
Sure, that was shown in another thread. I'll have to look for it.
 
  • #30


russ_watters said:
Note, the site for this info dump contains some pretty heavily biased editorializing - not a lot of it, just enough to let you know what his stance is. I realize the guy who runs the site just can't help himself, but I can't understand why he doesn't see that he undermines his own credibility by not simply dumping the information with a factual explanation of what it is.


If it is classified, absolutely yes!

Governments sometimes classify things simply to avoid embarrassing themselves, not because it is important to national security. That video of the gunship machine gunning Iraqi civilians was classified, because they wanted to conceal their crimes, not to protect the US.
 
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  • #31


aquitaine said:
Governments sometimes classify things simply to avoid embarrassing themselves, not because it is important to national security. That video of the gunship machine gunning Iraqi civilians was classified, because they wanted to conceal their crimes, not to protect the US.
That video is the one that was edited and had intentionally misleading and false information provided by wikileaks.

I will find the discussion on it, I'm about to have company.

This is also in response to CR's request. The discussion of that video is closed now, this is just posted as an explanation of what wikileaks did.

http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/05/wikileaks-collateral-murder/
 
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  • #32


aquitaine said:
Governments sometimes classify things simply to avoid embarrassing themselves, not because it is important to national security. That video of the gunship machine gunning Iraqi civilians was classified, because they wanted to conceal their crimes, not to protect the US.

Really? Or are all such videos classified?

Are you honestly trying to say that everything recorded etc. by the military in a war is unclassified information unless it involves crimes in which case they immediately find and classify all information pertaining to the crime?

This is incredibly stupid in my opinion.

All videos/recorded info etc. taken during fire fights or attacks are classified and it should be obvious why they are.
 
  • #33


In my opinion this new leak of 90k+ files isn't damaging to the war effort. I don't think it undermine the war or anthing of that type either. The media is just hyping it up because it's a huge leak of files pertaining to the war.

As well I do not agree with leaking of classified information. This is a war we are atlking about and a lot is at stake. People sitting in America have no idea what it's like in Afghanistan I would be surprised if they could even locate Afghanistan on a map.
 
  • #34


zomgwtf said:
Really? Or are all such videos classified?

Are you honestly trying to say that everything recorded etc. by the military in a war is unclassified information unless it involves crimes in which case they immediately find and classify all information pertaining to the crime?

This is incredibly stupid in my opinion.

All videos/recorded info etc. taken during fire fights or attacks are classified and it should be obvious why they are.
Now now, it's a bit of a dual standard. If there are videos which show heroic deeds of soldiers that aspire patriotism in the general population they are often directly given to the news. Even though it could hamper national security potentially, it does broker a favourable outcome in the midterms.

Let's just say that governments more often release such material when it casts them and good light than when it doesn't, which is of course what you expect.

zomgwtf said:
In my opinion this new leak of 90k+ files isn't damaging to the war effort. I don't think it undermine the war or anthing of that type either. The media is just hyping it up because it's a huge leak of files pertaining to the war.

As well I do not agree with leaking of classified information. This is a war we are atlking about and a lot is at stake. People sitting in America have no idea what it's like in Afghanistan I would be surprised if they could even locate Afghanistan on a map.
War? Declared om whom?

What sovereign entity exactly is there war declared on?

Also, name such a thing that's currently at stake for the American population in that 'war'?
 
  • #35


ZQrn said:
Yes but in all fairness, is a government really in the best position to objectively judge this? They can say this of all info that is damaging. If any, this should be judged by a supreme court.

The supreme court is a branch of the government. It has no authority to decide issues of national security and has a self imposed proscription against deciding issues of politics.
 
  • #36


TheStatutoryApe said:
The supreme court is a branch of the government. It has no authority to decide issues of national security and has a self imposed proscription against deciding issues of politics.
Depends on your definition of government, some people only include the executive branch in it, as in 'He was asked by the queen to form a government'.

This isn't as much politics as a constitution which defines what is considered threatening to national security which a supreme court must interpret by letter of law rather than by moral values or strategical ideology. Or at least in theory.
 
  • #37


ZQrn said:
Now now, it's a bit of a dual standard. If there are videos which show heroic deeds of soldiers that aspire patriotism in the general population they are often directly given to the news. Even though it could hamper national security potentially, it does broker a favourable outcome in the midterms.

Let's just say that governments more often release such material when it casts them and good light than when it doesn't, which is of course what you expect.
Sure but this has nothing to do with what I originally stated. The military releases information/video files that they can GURANTEE won't negatively effect them by the enemy or by the coalition nations. As well when I watch the news and there are stories on the war in Afghanistan there's not really much portraying the military in good light... a lot of it is actually negative...

War? Declared om whom?
The insurgents in Afghanistan. Hence it's a COIN operation.

What sovereign entity exactly is there war declared on?
...uh there is no war declared on a sovereign entity. It's a war INSIDE Afghanistan. Are you so dense as to think that COIN operations are not considered wars?

Also, name such a thing that's currently at stake for the American population in that 'war'?
Well first of all this really has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I never once said that there's something at stake for the American population in this war.

Second of all it has to do with what negative results could come towards the military from
a)the enemy gaining information they are not supposed to have
and
b)from the public opinion in its own nation since they don't get the full story sitting at home watching the media and reading wikileaks.
 
  • #38


ZQrn said:
Depends on your definition of government, some people only include the executive branch in it, as in 'He was asked by the queen to form a government'.

This isn't as much politics as a constitution which defines what is considered threatening to national security which a supreme court must interpret by letter of law rather than by moral values or strategical ideology. Or at least in theory.

While the judicial may have authority in some areas of what is acceptable by law in the area of protecting national security, that issue falls most squarely on the executive and then congress. The SCOTUS' hands are tied for the most part. Aside from actions taken against American citizens they have no constitutional authority. Only the FOIA gives them any latitude in the area which we are discussing and theoretically the executive and/or congress can easily limit this.

There is nothing in the constitution that would give any such authority except to the executive and congress. The judicial auspice is theoretically open ended but a most 'faithful' interpretation would exclude such a possibility.

While I may agree with you in spirit in reality the judicial only has authority through the FOIA which is limited, at best, as we have seen in the past. The other issue with the SCOTUS is that they have absolutely no power to enforce their decisions; their power rests solely in a sort of platonic 'authority' that anyone could theoretically flaunt if no one sees fit to enforce it. Theoretically the executive and congress may completely ignore any decision of the supreme court, though such would set a disturbing precedent that not many would likely support out of sheer principle. This is what led to the precedent of the SCOTUS not making 'decisions of politics'; the president could, and likely would, have ignored them and they rightly feared such a precedent.
 
  • #39


zomgwtf said:
Sure but this has nothing to do with what I originally stated. The military releases information/video files that they can GURANTEE won't negatively effect them by the enemy or by the coalition nations. As well when I watch the news and there are stories on the war in Afghanistan there's not really much portraying the military in good light... a lot of it is actually negative...
Haven't seen those come by though, at least not officially released by the military, at max things from war journalism.

I have seen several official USGOV releases of video that could hamper the mission but does further the political image of the seating administration.

The insurgents in Afghanistan. Hence it's a COIN operation.
I'm pretty sure they never formally declared war on them, and I'm sure that no international body like the UN would recognize such a 'declaration of war' to begin with.

...uh there is no war declared on a sovereign entity. It's a war INSIDE Afghanistan. Are you so dense as to think that COIN operations are not considered wars?
Yap, the point about war is that martial law is in effect. Different rules count, shooting is no longer murder et cetera.

The most important thing however is that you can say 'We're at war here!' as a justification for various things. The point is that when you attack soldiers, you attack people who are under authority of some sovereign nation and who are ordered to attack you. This is why there are certain rules about taking prisoners of war, these people never chose to attack you from their own ideology. Their own political beliefs are irrelevant as a soldier, they are ordered to attack and have to do so or else face discipline from their own commanders.

In the case of terrorists / insurgents, they aren't ordered at all, they are volunteers, not payed soldiers. They fight you for ideological reasons, and they are free to leave at any time. They also don't answer to one supreme commander in chief, surely there is some form of hierarchy and co-operation, but in the end the buck stops at no point, they are relatively isolated cells.

What you're formally dealing with is criminals here, not soldiers, they choose to attack you, they cannot say once you hold them at gunpoint and they pose no thread 'We were just following orders from our commander, it's not our decision' which soldiers can, and this is why you can't just shoot soldiers that are harmless and prisoners of war are not kept for justice or punishment but for security reasons. They are basically people living in a country which has a government, and they do not abide by the legal codes that government has established and enforces. This is very different from war and martial law. And this is why technically you can't just shoot them without a trial unless they resist arrest.

This distinction is quite important in international law.

Well first of all this really has nothing to do with what I was talking about. I never once said that there's something at stake for the American population in this war.
You said This is a war we are atlking about and a lot is at stake.

For whom is a lot at stake then if not the American population?

You know that internationally if you attack a country preventively without a direct risk for your own nation, this is internationally considered a war crime. This is of course different from pre-emptively.

Second of all it has to do with what negative results could come towards the military from
a)the enemy gaining information they are not supposed to have
For who's stake is the military fighting if not the American people?

b)from the public opinion in its own nation since they don't get the full story sitting at home watching the media and reading wikileaks.
Journalism never tells the whole story, that's why there's counter journalism and pluriformity of newspapers to keep a check.

The right side newspapers will tell the right side, the left side will tell the left side. Wikileaks is obviously biased to the left, as any journalistic entity is to one or the other.
 
  • #40


Hurkyl said:
By definition, a top secret document risks
Quote by Wikipedia:
"exceptionally grave damage" to national security if made publicly available.​
My understanding is that none of the leaked documents were classified "top secret".
 
  • #41


ZQrn said:
I never really got this strange fixation people have with 'treason' really, but I'm not a nationalist or patriot and never got that either, so...
Then why not leave? No tears here.
 
  • #42


mheslep said:
Then why not leave? No tears here.
Let's see, do I live in a country because of devoted love for the history of that country, because of unquestionable allegiance to what ever parliament or cabinet is currently elected democratically regardless of me voting against them in the election or not. Because of my love and appreciation for our hereditary head of state, because of our excellent performance at football and ice skating.

Or simply because I've friends, a life, a job here and most importantly because I speak the language fluently?

I don't love any other country blindly too and I don't see myself moving up to space, better stay at a place where I got a life, friends, kids and whose customs and language I happen to know.
 
  • #43


ZQrn said:
I said I found a world leader stupid in a politics board. I am not allowed to criticize a world leader on his by my perceived intellectual shortcomings for the job?
You didn't say 'I found', you stated it as a given.
 
  • #44


mheslep said:
You didn't say 'I found', you stated it as a given.

"People sitting in America have no idea what it's like in Afghanistan"

"If it is classified, absolutely yes!"

"Some information is just plain not fit for public consumption"

"the wikileaks on Afghanastan is a big yawn"

Go bug the people for sources who said those things too, we do want all things sourced don't we?

Oh wait, I forgot, you're just trying to find a reason to attack me on because I said something you didn't agree with regardless of context obviously implying it was an opinion, how can some one's intelligence be fact to begin with? Silly me, assuming that when people ask 'citation please?' to an opinion that they actually want one rather than picking hairs over opinions because they don't like your side of the debate.
 
  • #45


ZQrn said:
Sure, but I just think that asking for a citation for that is pretty strange

It's not the first thing on this thread that's caused me to ask for a citation. In fact, a sizable portion of my Politics & World Affairs posts are requests for citations. I come here [edit: that is, to P&WD, not to the Physics Forums in general] to learn, not to explain my beliefs to others.

I'm frequently asked for citations myself -- twice over the last two days, though I don't think either was on this forum. (One was a source on Frobenius pseudoprimes, backing my claim; the other was on the solvability of NP-hard problems, which showed that my claim was wrong (!) but repairable.)
 
  • #46


CRGreathouse said:
It's not the first thing on this thread that's caused me to ask for a citation. In fact, a sizable portion of my Politics & World Affairs posts are requests for citations. I come here to learn, not to explain my beliefs to others.

I'm frequently asked for citations myself -- twice over the last two days, though I don't think either was on this forum. (One was a source on Frobenius pseudoprimes, backing my claim; the other was on the solvability of NP-hard problems, which showed that my claim was wrong (!) but repairable.)
Yes, but those are citations on facts, not on opinions.

It's like asking 'citation?' if you say 'The mona lisa is truly the most beautiful painting ever!'

It's an opinion, it's not a fact.
 
  • #47


Gokul43201 said:
My understanding is that none of the leaked documents were classified "top secret".
It was just an example, and the other classification markings were in the list I linked.
 
  • #48
CRGreathouse said:
Citation, please.
Make of these what you will.

Opinions from people that engaged personally with Bush:

1. Richard Perle (Bush's foreign policy adviser): "The first time I met Bush 43 … two things became clear. One, he didn't know very much. The other was that he had the confidence to ask questions that revealed he didn't know very much."

http://www.ciponline.org/nationalsecurity/news/articles/mullins112406.htm

(fwiw, I consider the second attribute a positive trait)2. Bob Woodward (Bush biographer, Washington Post correspondent): “He’s not an intellectual. He is not what I guess would be called a deep thinker.”

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/04/15/60minutes/main612067.shtml3. David Frum (Bush's speechwriter): "As Andy Hiller ascertained, Bush had a poor memory for facts and figures. … Fire a question at him about the specifics of his administration's policies, and he often appeared uncertain. Nobody would ever enroll him in a quiz show."

Source: The Right Man: An Inside Account of the Bush White House, by David Frum (pg 77?) 4. Paul O'Neill (Bush's ousted Treasury Sec): "This meeting was like many other meetings I would go to over the course of two years. The only way I can describe it is that, well, the President is like a blind man in a roomful of deaf people. There is no discernible connection."

Source: The Price of Loyalty: George W. Bush, the White House, and the Education of Paul O'Neill, by Ron Suskind (pg 149?)5. Laura Bush (Bush's wife): "George is not an overly introspective person. He has good instincts, and he goes with them. He doesn't need to evaluate and reevaluate a decision. He doesn't try to overthink. He likes action."

http://www.allgreatquotes.com/laura_bush_quotes.shtml6. George W. Bush (Bush's self): I'm not a textbook player. I'm a gut player. I play by instincts. I don't play by the book.”

From Woodward's book, Bush at WarSee also:

Peter Galbraith (hearsay, but not disputed by the White House): http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Ambassador_claims_shortly_before_invasion_Bush_0804.html No doubt you've also read/heard many of the so-called Bushisms which are another source of insight into Bush's thought process.
 
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  • #49


Gokul, thank you very much for those! #3 seems most to the point in this context, but they're all interesting.

I don't consider the 'Bushisms' to be of much value in determining intellect -- we all say stupid things at times, and someone as public as the US President has all of it captured on tape. (Also, plausible accusations of media bias make this even more difficult to determine.) You're right that they can be indicative of the thought process, though.
 
  • #50


Evo said:
This is also in response to CR's request. The discussion of that video is closed now, this is just posted as an explanation of what wikileaks did.

http://blog.ajmartinez.com/2010/04/05/wikileaks-collateral-murder/

Evo, thank you! Somehow I missed that you posted this earlier. I will review this carefully.
 
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