- #61
hypatia
- 1,177
- 10
Except now the reservists who have been there a year are being told they will half to stay longer.
News Will the US reintroduce the draft?
- Thread starter Art
- Start date
-
- Tags
- Draft
Click For Summary
The discussion centers on the potential reintroduction of the military draft in the United States, prompted by rising military casualties and recruitment shortfalls in the Army. Senator Biden emphasized that the U.S. may face a difficult decision regarding the draft due to ongoing recruitment challenges, with the Army missing its targets significantly. The conversation reflects concerns about the implications of a draft, with some participants arguing that an all-volunteer force is preferable and expressing skepticism about the likelihood of reinstating conscription. Many believe that a major global conflict, such as a war with China, would be necessary to justify a draft, while others dismiss the idea as political fear-mongering. The discussion also touches on military training standards for new recruits and the potential consequences of deploying inexperienced soldiers. Overall, there is a consensus that the draft is unlikely to be reinstated without a significant escalation in military conflict.
- #62
edward
- 62
- 167
Few troops complained about the inital deployments. It is the multiple deployments that they are having a hard time accepting. I read that over 15% of those who were initially deployed have gone a second time and some are waiting for the call to go a third. That link was dated 2004.
Last edited:
- #63
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
I think the most disheartening thing was brought out in one of the lawsuits brought against the government. Apparently, these guys paychecks now list their discharge date as their retirement date ie. when they turn 65.edward said:
- #64
SOS2008
Gold Member
- 42
- 1
I'd like to see a draft if it were applied only to the children of parents who support the war and Bush.quetzalcoatl9 said:
- #65
GENIERE
If the lefties have it their way, you’ll likely get your wish.SOS2008 said:
http://www.thehill.com/thehill/export/TheHill/News/Frontpage/071305/brief3.html
A team of Senate and House Democrats today are planning to introduce legislation today aimed at significantly increasing size of the U.S. Army.
Sen. Joseph Lieberman (D-Conn.), ranking member of the Senate Armed Services (SASC) airland subcommittee, Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton (D-N.Y.), a SASC member, and Reps. Ellen Tauscher (D-Calif.) and Mark Udall (D-Colo.), both members of the House Armed Services committee, are pressing for the passage of the United States Army Relief Act.
Last edited by a moderator:
- #66
Townsend
- 232
- 0
SOS2008 said:
Would you really...so what about what the kid of the parents who support the war wants? Oh is, he/she is just pawn in your little chess game then?
Your words show that you are more concerned about the politics then the people. You are no better than the people you loath.
- #67
Townsend
- 232
- 0
I think I would like to have 2 years mandatory military service from all people upon reaching the age of 18. Well no, on second thought I would give them a choice, zero government support for the rest of their lives or mandatory military service.
By zero government support I mean that if any company has any kind of government contract, you cannot work there. You cannot receive any kind of government loans or grants. You cannot hold any kind of office...you get the point.
By zero government support I mean that if any company has any kind of government contract, you cannot work there. You cannot receive any kind of government loans or grants. You cannot hold any kind of office...you get the point.
- #68
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
Sure ... you believe that YOU work for the government and that your government does not work for you.Townsend said:
I thought that was just a 'Communist Chinese' thing but I guess fascists crawl out of the woodwork under any system.
- #69
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
GENIERE said:
They are increasing the 'cap'. To fill it, they would need the imposition of a draft or to be able to sway the general public to sign up.
GENIERE said:
Yes, it would seem they want to have wars fought by trained career forces rather than the botched undertrained weekend warriors and aging crowd that you have in Iraq right now who seem to have problems pronouncing the words 'Geneva Conventions' much less respecting them.
Last edited by a moderator:
- #70
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
It's a known fact that people with a vested interest tend to consider their decisions much more than those who don't.Townsend said:
The man lest likely to declare a 'war of convenience' is one who has 7 sons of service age.
The one most likely to declare a war of convenience is one who can put his children out of harms way or who doesn't have any at all.
Who are the most likely to go to war when one is declared? Certainly not the children of the Bush 'haves and have mores'!
- #71
Townsend
- 232
- 0
The Smoking Man said:
This does not address my point. What about the kids that have to goto war? All anyone seems to be concerned with is the politics, what of the people who are fighting the war? Not their fathers...get it?
- #72
Townsend
- 232
- 0
The Smoking Man said:
How am I being a fascist?
The government does not have a duty to work for anyone! I hate this progressive, the world owes me something, kind of attitude. The government is the people and the people do not owe anyone anything.
- #73
GENIERE
The vested interest being life, liberty, the pursuit of happiness?The Smoking Man said:
False premise or trolling? Remember DNFTT.The Smoking Man said:
A war of necessity however…The Smoking Man said:
Under Bush’s leadership it seems all will have more including the government. Because of the tax cuts, tax revenue is up 40% from corporations, 15% from the “wealthy” and very little from the middle class. Of course the poor pay nothing. Let's see, Euro down, Dollar up, Chirac dead, Blair very alive, UK < 5% unemployment, France >10% unemployment...The Smoking Man said:
Lets see, oil prices are dropping due to lesser demand from China. Is it due to a decreased economic growth or a switch to the more polluting coal? Anyhow I dumped my gas futures a week or so ago.
...
- #74
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
Duh ... 'OF the people, BY the people and FOR the people.'Townsend said:
Does NOT mean you work for them.
You seem to have forgoten that the people are not responsible to the government but hat a government is responsible to its people.
Yes you are being a fascist when you force ANYBODY to fight for something they do not believe in.
In America it is the individual's rights that are paramount and that is why the draft is so heinous ... it makes people take up arms when they do not believe in the cause.
More civil countries who do have manditory service, like Holland, allow people who are pacifists to enter into other types of service like medical fields for two years.
- #75
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
It sure as heck isn't the people fighting the war that declare said war.Townsend said:
In most cases, it is the people who have nobody involved in the forces.
I believe that of all of congress and the senate there were two children of these men stationed in Iraq.
The politics IS what is influenced by realities of war.
Bush chose to engage Iraq knowing they were not a nuclear power and yet he negotiates with North Korea. This is in direct conflict with the refusal to negotiate with terrorists. Why is that? BECAUSE THE FALLOUT WOULD EFFECT THE USA AND US ALLIES.
- #76
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
GENIERE said:
Saddam was denying you those things?
GENIERE said:
What is false about it?
GENIERE said:
I didn't say that a man with 7 sons would always vote against war did I? I just said that he would give it greater consideration.
GENIERE said:
So this little party political broadcast has what to do with the content of this board?
Your observation are also incredibly juvinile at best. China HAS been using coal for its entire existence. In fact, the USA is attempting to block the Chinese purchase of Unocal which would facilitate a move FROM high sulphur coal. I guess, as in all aspects of the environment, the USA has the wrong end of the stick again.
- #77
Art
Oil prices droppingGENIERE said:
Somewhat higher than the $30 level the Iraq war was supposed to reduce.
On the subject of CNOOC's (75% owned by the Chinese gov't) takeover bid for Unocal
And the Iraq war had nothing to do with oil? At least the Chinese are prepared to pay for their 'political leverage in oil producing regions'
Last edited by a moderator:
- #78
kat
- 42
- 0
The Smoking Man said:
Since it's such a well known fact, I'm sure you won't mind posting proof.
- #79
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
Sure, America refused the second world war until Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and America came under threat. When it was a possibility for Americans to die in the war, your considerations changed.kat said:
In Vietnam there were hundreds of Bushs and Clintons with parents of influence who were decisionmakers who were allowed to sit out the war in roles far different than what you are seeing now. You're not going to tell me that 'Little Rock Arkansas' was the end of the Ho Chi Minh trail are you and that you think the 'younger Bush' just might have seen action?
Was Bill Clinton going to see any action from his digs in an English University?
Kerry just didn't quite understand the game and ended up doing a couple of days on shore in Nam and spent the rest of the time dreaming up new ways to get a new Purple Heart.
Go on, after JFK, Bush Sr. and Bob Dole, Inoue(sp?) and a few of the old guard, how many war heros are now serving in the congress and how many were in 'the guard' or University?
- #80
BobG
Science Advisor
- 352
- 88
The Smoking Man said:
McCain and Kerry. And Kerrey, as well, although he's not currently serving in office. And McCain is one of the couple that also has a son in the military. That's two (plus a recent Senator now out of office) right off the top of my head without putting much thought into it.
About a third of Congress have prior military experience, although I don't have the current numbers. The number tends to decrease with each election, though. (Fewer Vets in Congress)
It's not exactly pertinent, but is an interesting trivia question - who's the only female veteran in Congress?
Last edited:
- #81
Art
Heather Wilson USAF 1978 - 89BobG said:
- #82
The Smoking Man
- 67
- 0
BobG said:
Oooo ... cool 2... Out of HOW many?
And how many have military experience similar to Shrub?
You say you don't even know who they are. How do you know HOW they served or when?
Heck, a few of them have fake diplomas from diploma mills!
How do you know WHAT the story is?
A few are also Democrats. What is their current voting record? (I will ignore the initial vote that took you into Iraq since the 'books were cooked' as we all know. http://www.yourcongress.com/ViewArticle.asp?article_id=2686 )
You have also linked to data published in the year 2000.
So what about Jo Ann Davis, R-Va? Did she not make it back into congress?
Last edited by a moderator:
- #83
Townsend
- 232
- 0
The Smoking Man said:
What are you talking about? The government has a responsibility to protect peoples agreed upon rights...you know, the ones in the bill or rights. That is the ONLY responsibility of the government to the people and that is the only reason the government should exist.
Um no...http://www.webster.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?va=fascism does not mean mandatory military service and mandatory military service does not mean fascism. Words have meanings and you cannot just twist those meanings to fit your definitions at will.
If that’s so then why are we compromising the rights of the individual with BS progressivism?
Well, that is what I am advocating now isn’t it? I am saying you are cut off from government service if you don't serve two years. That’s not mandatory at all!
Regards
[edit]the government has a responsibilitiy to uphold the constitution which enumerates its powers and the rights of the individual[/edit]
Last edited:
- #84
2CentsWorth
- 15
- 0
In other words, mandatory by way of blackmail. That sounds about right (from the "right"). I can't imagine if I had a child who had to go to Iraq right now. It's bad enough the lives and taxes being wasted in Shrub's War. And I think it would be the last straw for many Americans.Townsend said:
Ditto.The Smoking Man said:
A couple of people I know who have supported the war and Bush are now very nervous about a draft. People who are victimized by a crime suddenly become pro-capital punishment. I think this is the point that was being made above.The Smoking Man said:
- #85
solutions in a box
Getting back to the daft
Current "administration approved" tactics the military may use to increase enlistment and retain personnel include:
Change of regulations allowing high school drop outs to enlist.
Bonuses of $150,000 for Special Forces, and Navy Seals if they re-enlist, even if they are not currently stationed in a combat zone.
Bonuses for former military who will enlist again.
Increased age limit for joining National Guard or Reserves.
Bonuses for first time and delayed entry enlistees.
Allowing illegal aliens to join the military.
Under the, no child left behind act, schools are required to give students personal information to military recruiters.
Current "administration approved" tactics the military may use to increase enlistment and retain personnel include:
Change of regulations allowing high school drop outs to enlist.
Bonuses of $150,000 for Special Forces, and Navy Seals if they re-enlist, even if they are not currently stationed in a combat zone.
Bonuses for former military who will enlist again.
Increased age limit for joining National Guard or Reserves.
Bonuses for first time and delayed entry enlistees.
Allowing illegal aliens to join the military.
Under the, no child left behind act, schools are required to give students personal information to military recruiters.
- #86
Townsend
- 232
- 0
2CentsWorth said:
So what, people shouldn't have to pay for all the benefits the government gives them. You liberals are like kids...always biting the hand that feeds.
Deal with reality and stop crying because you have to actually pay for something instead of getting it for free from the government you cheap bastards. In the real world if you want something from someone , tax payers money in this case, then you must give them something in exchange for it. Why should anyone get all the benefits of jobs and social welfare from this country and yet do nothing in exchange for it?
- #87
Townsend
- 232
- 0
solutions in a box said:
With a couple of exceptions it has been that way for years now. Its nothing new at all and it certainly does not correspond to this war. Just saying that so people don't get the idea that recruitment is down because of the all the fighting going on.
- #88
edward
- 62
- 167
Townsend.
Who are you kidding, most of the recruitment tactics listed are recent ie the last two years. Military rercuitment lies go waaay back.
For those of you who have talked about why young people join the military, here is a link with the DOD point of view. The joiners are the ones that the recruiters love to find.
From: http://www.ijoa.org/imta96/paper26.html
Joiners. Demographically, Joiners are predominantly from less well-to-do working or lower middle-class homes. They tend, as well, to reside in smaller towns or rural environments. Most of the youth in this category have a familial tradition of military service and/or extensive contact with people serving in the military. Their familiarity with military life, also, is generally greater than that for youth in any of the other propensity groups, although this familiarity does not always prove a positive influence. Some of the descriptions of military life lead to ambivalence about enlisting in the military.
Many of the youth in this group feel they are not college material or that they are not ready for college at this time. Some are not academically inclined, and others believe that they lack the discipline to study and avoid the "party" temptation if they were to go away to school. "Discipline" and "taking orders" form the most central images of military life for Joiners. These images were not necessarily negative. Several youth noted that accepting discipline can serve an important and maturing role in their lives. For many, the military is considered a structured environment that can prepare them for future careers.
The primary motivations for joining the military are to gain access to training and benefits. Training is considered a stepping stone to the future. Some are enlisting expressly to obtain money for education. These youth are either not ready for college at this time or require funds in order to pursue higher education. Relatively few youth mention serving their country as a motivation for enlistment. The few that did were often apologetic and prefaced their remarks with "I’m not all that patriotic, but..." as if embarrassed to admit a larger social or ideological motivation. Most expressed apprehension about war. Combat and the possibility of dying or killing were worrisome, but they generally considered they were entering a peacetime military.
Who are you kidding, most of the recruitment tactics listed are recent ie the last two years. Military rercuitment lies go waaay back.
For those of you who have talked about why young people join the military, here is a link with the DOD point of view. The joiners are the ones that the recruiters love to find.
From: http://www.ijoa.org/imta96/paper26.html
Joiners. Demographically, Joiners are predominantly from less well-to-do working or lower middle-class homes. They tend, as well, to reside in smaller towns or rural environments. Most of the youth in this category have a familial tradition of military service and/or extensive contact with people serving in the military. Their familiarity with military life, also, is generally greater than that for youth in any of the other propensity groups, although this familiarity does not always prove a positive influence. Some of the descriptions of military life lead to ambivalence about enlisting in the military.
Many of the youth in this group feel they are not college material or that they are not ready for college at this time. Some are not academically inclined, and others believe that they lack the discipline to study and avoid the "party" temptation if they were to go away to school. "Discipline" and "taking orders" form the most central images of military life for Joiners. These images were not necessarily negative. Several youth noted that accepting discipline can serve an important and maturing role in their lives. For many, the military is considered a structured environment that can prepare them for future careers.
The primary motivations for joining the military are to gain access to training and benefits. Training is considered a stepping stone to the future. Some are enlisting expressly to obtain money for education. These youth are either not ready for college at this time or require funds in order to pursue higher education. Relatively few youth mention serving their country as a motivation for enlistment. The few that did were often apologetic and prefaced their remarks with "I’m not all that patriotic, but..." as if embarrassed to admit a larger social or ideological motivation. Most expressed apprehension about war. Combat and the possibility of dying or killing were worrisome, but they generally considered they were entering a peacetime military.
Last edited:
- #89
Matthias765
If only one person got killed everyday in Iraq, in just a month 30 people would have been killed, so it would be better if nobody got killed, which is really obvious.
- #90
Townsend
- 232
- 0
edward said:
No they have been around for along time. In fact the US Navy had the highest recruitment ever about a year after 9-11. I have 8.5 years of service so please stop trying to bullsh!t me ok.
Bonuses are nothing new...I got a 36,000 dollar bonus for reenlisting for 4 years and I had a normal rating.
Being happening on and off for years...welcome to 15 or 20 years ago.
They have been doing this for years too, its called a waiver. The only difference is that now its official.
This is new but not that new...welcome to about 3 years ago.
Have you ever in your life been to a military base? I know some old Master Chiefs that are retiring after 32 years of service. Guess what...they joined out the Navy as an Alien while living in another country. Been happening for years.
Whats the point? That is not a recruitment tool as much as it is to keep recruiters and possible enlistees honest.
Why don't you try taking your argument to somewhere else because it is all BS.