News Will the US reintroduce the draft?

[The Smoking Man]

So what, people shouldn't have to pay for all the benefits the government gives them. You liberals are like kids...always biting the hand that feeds.

Deal with reality and stop crying because you have to actually pay for something instead of getting it for free from the government you cheap bastards. In the real world if you want something from someone , tax payers money in this case, then you must give them something in exchange for it. Why should anyone get all the benefits of jobs and social welfare from this country and yet do nothing in exchange for it?

Now you have almost got it.

You are assuming that just republicans are taxpayers, is that it?

Personally I could give a 'rats ...' but you seem to have this perverse notion that 'he who sits on the other side of the floor is a traitor' because he believes in the freedom of the individual instead of him being indentured and controlled by the state.

Must they all 'drink the koolaide' to prove they are loyal and have the right to live in America?

The more you speak, the more I am glad I left the USA in favour of China where it seems less and less likely I will face a war except in the boardroom.

 

[Townsend]

Townsend.

Joiners. Demographically, Joiners are predominantly from less well-to-do working or lower middle-class homes. They tend, as well, to reside in smaller towns or rural environments.

Yeah, and I actually respect these people for taking control of their lives. Why would that bother you so much? Oh, right, I almost forgot...you liberals want to keep people down by supporting welfare and encouraging people to stop trying.

Most of the youth in this category have a familial tradition of military service and/or extensive contact with people serving in the military. Their familiarity with military life, also, is generally greater than that for youth in any of the other propensity groups, although this familiarity does not always prove a positive influence. Some of the descriptions of military life lead to ambivalence about enlisting in the military.

This article is crap...most people who come from military families are considered well to do. Exactly the opposite of what this article is saying. So I say BS.

Many of the youth in this group feel they are not college material or that they are not ready for college at this time. Some are not academically inclined, and others believe that they lack the discipline to study and avoid the "party" temptation if they were to go away to school. "Discipline" and "taking orders" form the most central images of military life for Joiners. These images were not necessarily negative. Several youth noted that accepting discipline can serve an important and maturing role in their lives. For many, the military is considered a structured environment that can prepare them for future careers.

This misconstrues the facts. I belong to this group when I joined and I can tell you from experience that there is a lot more it than what this article is saying.

The primary motivations for joining the military are to gain access to training and benefits. Training is considered a stepping stone to the future. Some are enlisting expressly to obtain money for education. These youth are either not ready for college at this time or require funds in order to pursue higher education. Relatively few youth mention serving their country as a motivation for enlistment.

Again why do you have a problem with people earning their way through life?

The few that did were often apologetic and prefaced their remarks with "I’m not all that patriotic, but..." as if embarrassed to admit a larger social or ideological motivation. Most expressed apprehension about war. Combat and the possibility of dying or killing were worrisome, but they generally considered they were entering a peacetime military.

This is complete and utter crap...I cannot believe you would post such crap and try to pass it off as real. What the hell kind of website is that anyways? Most importantly why is trying to sound like a DOD paper when it obviously is not?

 

[The Smoking Man]

So what, people shouldn't have to pay for all the benefits the government gives them. You liberals are like kids...always biting the hand that feeds.

Deal with reality and stop crying because you have to actually pay for something instead of getting it for free from the government you cheap bastards. In the real world if you want something from someone , tax payers money in this case, then you must give them something in exchange for it. Why should anyone get all the benefits of jobs and social welfare from this country and yet do nothing in exchange for it?

So, Americans have to pay for what they give to the government in taxes by taking up arms against a nation in the Middle East who threatens Kuwait and Israel?

This is freedom to you?

So you are saying that what what Halliburton is doing IS corporate welfare; that they are NOT biting the hand that FEEDS?

You're saying the private individuals who are being paid $10,000 per month to drive a truck are really just 'true patriots' and 'good republicans' who believe in the almighty American dollar and are defending the Republican way of life?

 

[Townsend]

Now you have almost got it.

You are assuming that just republicans are taxpayers, is that it?

Nope...and please don't start saying I am saying that. Stick to what is actually said and drop your misconceptions about me, ok.

Personally I could give a 'rats ...' but you seem to have this perverse notion that 'he who sits on the other side of the floor is a traitor' because he believes in the freedom of the individual instead of him being indentured and controlled by the state.

Wrong...from here on out quote me where I am making such claims before you put words into my mouth, thank you.

Must they all 'drink the koolaide' to prove they are loyal and have the right to live in America?

To get something you must give something...a simple concept.

The more you speak, the more I am glad I left the USA in favour of China where it seems less and less likely I will face a war except in the boardroom.

Well, you are welcome back anytime. I accept your views even if I don't agree with them and I would have no problem having you as my neighbor.

Regards,

 

[edward]

Townsend

"Have you ever in your life been to a military base? I know some old Master Chiefs that are retiring after 32 years of service. Guess what...they joined out the Navy as an Alien while living in another country. Been happening for years. BS."


Youre not the only military veteran here dude. I could name 7 military bases that I was assigned to.

The big differences between then and now is that then serving in the military was a legal way to gain citizenship. But documentation was needed.
The guys coming up from mexico and joining now have nothing but fake green cards.

http://capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=3157

The link you call an article and crap was actually a study done for the DOD by:
http://www.dmdc.osd.mil/dmdc.html

Never presume you know everything. Only a swabbie would talk out of his arse.

 

[Townsend]

So, Americans have to pay for what they give to the government in taxes by taking up arms against a nation in the Middle East who threatens Kuwait and Israel?

You think that by putting words into my mouth that you can actually win an argument?

This is freedom to you?

Just so you know I think that freedom is liberty for the individual, both socially and economically.

So you are saying that what what Halliburton is doing IS corporate welfare; that they are NOT biting the hand that FEEDS?

No, if I said that then you would probably quoted me saying it but I didn't so you somehow feel compelled to tell me what I am saying.

You're saying the private individuals who are being paid $10,000 per month to drive a truck are really just 'true patriots' and 'good republicans' who believe in the almighty American dollar and are defending the Republican way of life?

There is no point to this if all you can do is place words into my mouth.

Regards,

 

[Townsend]

Townsend



You're not the only military veteran here dude. I could name 7 military bases that I was assigned to.

The big differences between then and now is that then serving in the military was an easy way to gain citizenship. But documentation was needed a passport or any legal document was Ok.
The guys coming up from mexico and joining now have nothing but fake green cards.

http://capmag.com/articlePrint.asp?ID=3157

Never presume you know everything.

You people are the worst ever in the world at assuming crap. I don't believe you were in the service at all. But I never assumed anything. The point is that you are stating that crap like its a new thing. You leave out the fact that its not new at all! Thats more like lying than anything else, especially if you actually knew the difference.

I could name 7 military bases that I was assigned to.

You PCSed to 7 different bases? Is that what you're saying?

 

[The Smoking Man]

Nope...and please don't start saying I am saying that. Stick to what is actually said and drop your misconceptions about me, ok.

I did quote you:

So what, people shouldn't have to pay for all the benefits the government gives them. You liberals are like kids...always biting the hand that feeds.

Deal with reality and stop crying because you have to actually pay for something instead of getting it for free from the government you cheap bastards. In the real world if you want something from someone , tax payers money in this case, then you must give them something in exchange for it. Why should anyone get all the benefits of jobs and social welfare from this country and yet do nothing in exchange for it?

You clearly state that the problems is with the 'liberals'.

Wrong...from here on out quote me where I am making such claims before you put words into my mouth, thank you.

I did ... as above you state that the liberals are wrong because they refuse to recognize that they are required to support their government and pay for what they receive with the possible loss of life in a war and go further on to say that you demand 2 years service out of each citizen in payment:

Well, that is what I am advocating now isn’t it? I am saying you are cut off from government service if you don't serve two years. That’s not mandatory at all!

To get something you must give something...a simple concept.

Well, you are welcome back anytime. I accept your views even if I don't agree with them and I would have no problem having you as my neighbor.

That's not the question. I would like a say in the disposition of the lives of my children. You do not offer me that and those conditions are unacceptable.

 

[The Smoking Man]

You think that by putting words into my mouth that you can actually win an argument?


Just so you know I think that freedom is liberty for the individual, both socially and economically.



No, if I said that then you would probably quoted me saying it but I didn't so you somehow feel compelled to tell me what I am saying.





There is no point to this if all you can do is place words into my mouth.

Regards,

So stop speaking in esoteric words that must be interpreted and deal in hard facts then.

What is it you expect from the average US citizen relative to Iraq?

Do you believe that all us citizens should now, if they are of service age, go down to the registration office and sign up for service to put in their two years in Iraq?

And if they refuse to do so and they are the majority of the population and the majority of the population refuses the draft, do you think the government is correct in acting against the majority of the people by deliberately acting against the will of the democracy by penalizing them for 'not paying'?

Again, do you believe the government reflects the will of the people or the people reflect the will of the government?

 

[edward]

You people are the worst ever in the world at assuming crap. I don't believe you were in the service at all. But I never assumed anything. The point is that you are stating that crap like its a new thing. You leave out the fact that its not new at all! Thats more like lying than anything else, especially if you actually knew the difference.



You PCSed to 7 different bases? Is that what you're saying?

Thats right 7 and the official link to the "article" you called crap is :

http://www.dmdc.osd.mil/dmdc.html

 

[Townsend]

I did quote you:

You clearly state that the problems is with the 'liberals'.

You liberals are like kids...always biting the hand that feeds.

What problem are you talking about? Liberals tend to believe that the government owe things like welfare and health care and jobs. The government does not owe the people these things. And to get those things what is wrong with requiring people to earn them?

I did ... as above you state that the liberals are wrong because they refuse to recognize that they are required to support their government and pay for what they receive with the possible loss of life in a war and go further on to say that you demand 2 years service out of each citizen in payment:

The libs want to get a good job working at a company that has a GOV contract, they want free health care,free education and they don't think that anyone should have to do a dame thing to get it. Sorry, that's not the way things work nor should they work.

That's not the question. I would like a say in the disposition of the lives of my children. You do not offer me that and those conditions are unacceptable.

You are entitled to make your own fortune. I encourage you to by all means acquire as much wealth for you and your family as you possibly can. What does that have to do with getting handouts? You want government aid, pay for it with some service. Whats the big deal?

 

[GENIERE]

Duh ...

More civil countries who do have manditory service, like Holland, allow people who are pacifists to enter into other types of service like medical fields for two years.

Indeed a very civil country.


http://www2.rnw.nl/rnw/en/currentaffairs/region/netherlands/nl040611.html?view=Standard


Foreign Minister Ben Bot and Defence Minister Henk Kamp had made it clear on numerous occasions over recent months that they strongly supported a continuation of the country's military presence in the southern Iraqi province of al-Muthanna.

...

 

[edward]

Townsend

Stop with all the rhetoric please and post something that can be supported or verified in any way other than your own opinion.

 

[BobG]

I think I would like to have 2 years mandatory military service from all people upon reaching the age of 18. Well no, on second thought I would give them a choice, zero government support for the rest of their lives or mandatory military service.

By zero government support I mean that if any company has any kind of government contract, you cannot work there. You cannot receive any kind of government loans or grants. You cannot hold any kind of office...you get the point.

I'd agree with 2 years of some kind of community service to receive government benefits like tuition assistance, etc. even if I wouldn't go to the extreme of zero government benefits. Defaulting on government subsidized student loans used to be pretty common, especially for the folks who went for the liberal arts degrees and then found out construction workers make more than Midieval History majors. Even now, the crack down on folks who default on student loans basically just prevents you from pulling the same scam twice.

I also don't think military service would be the best option for such a large number of people. Considering the cost of training, there just aren't a huge number of jobs in the military where you get your money's worth out of someone in only two years, especially if you're bringing in unmotivated recruits. In fact, finding some type of government service that untrained people could perform for two years would be the big challenge even outside the military.

Maybe a better option would be to target specific benefits as requiring some type of community service. Education benefits would be the perfect fit if the community service were performed after graduation instead of before. ROTC already performs this role for the military, except they require 4 years instead of 2, so the new programs should be targeted towards some other government areas.

 

[Townsend]

So stop speaking in esoteric words that must be interpreted and deal in hard facts then.

I will write how ever I want thank you very much. Don't like it? tuff...

What is it you expect from the average US citizen relative to Iraq?

As of right now I don't expect anything from the average US citizen. We have an all volunteer military that is taking care of it.

Do you believe that all us citizens should now, if they are of service age, go down to the registration office and sign up for service to put in their two years in Iraq?

No..if it were up to me I would make this thing policy during a time of peace.

And if they refuse to do so and they are the majority of the population and the majority of the population refuses the draft, do you think the government is correct in acting against the majority of the people by deliberately acting against the will of the democracy by penalizing them for 'not paying'?

The government has a duty to protect itself and the individual from the tyranny of faction. That is what make the US what it is.

The government does not have to act for the will of faction, not now and not ever!

Again, do you believe the government reflects the will of the people or the people reflect the will of the government?

Again?...this is the first time you have asked me that. I can answer that with any kind of opinion at all. The constitution was designed to protect the liberties of the individual. Its goal is diffuse the voice of the people through a complex system of republican representation and checks and balances. I believe James Madison and the Federalist got most of it right when they drafted the constitution.

 

[Townsend]

Townsend

Stop with all the rhetoric please and post something that can be supported or verified in any way other than your own opinion.

What did I say that you would like verified?

 

[Townsend]

Thats right 7

Well I find that extremely hard to believe. Let's see...about 4 year per station times 7 stations is about 28 years of service plus training time puts you at about 29 years of service...I don't think so buddy..nice try.

 

[edward]

Townsend

come on now swabby , do you still say this link is crap.

http://www.ijoa.org/imta96/paper26.html

from

http://www.dmdc.osd.mil/dmdc.html

answer please.

 

[Townsend]

Maybe a better option would be to target specific benefits as requiring some type of community service. Education benefits would be the perfect fit if the community service were performed after graduation instead of before. ROTC already performs this role for the military, except they require 4 years instead of 2, so the new programs should be targeted towards some other government areas.

Good point...some kind of service would be nice though.

 

[Townsend]

Townsend

come on now swabby , do you still say this link is crap.

no..but some of the comments are still way off.

You edited that post..that first one is not DOD...its crap if it tries to say it is.

 

[The Smoking Man]

What problem are you talking about? Liberals tend to believe that the government owe things like welfare and health care and jobs. The government does not owe the people these things. And to get those things what is wrong with requiring people to earn them?




The libs want to get a good job working at a company that has a GOV contract, they want free health care,free education and they don't think that anyone should have to do a dame thing to get it. Sorry, that's not the way things work nor should they work.



You are entitled to make your own fortune. I encourage you to by all means acquire as much wealth for you and your family as you possibly can. What does that have to do with getting handouts? You want government aid, pay for it with some service. Whats the big deal?

You seem to have yourself convinced about 'what liberals want'.

And yet ... Well, your description of joining companies with government contracts and the payment of reenlistment bonus' seem at odds with reality.

Both the USA and the UK had to issue enlistment bonus' because what they found was that their soldiers were signing on as 'security personel' at wages that would pay them a whole tours pay in one month, isn't that true?

They found that their 'republican' marines were too married to the almighty dollar and not to patriotism as you eschew.

They believed as you do but that the government payed way too little and showed their patriotism by signing on with the Halliburton Security arm instead of accepting minimum wage.

I'll bet the other benefits far outweighed government standard too.

Personally, I don't 'do' government work even though it was offered. Neither have I been ever considered 'liberal'.

I make too much to be 'liberal'. I have always been conservative or what you would term Republican and prefer the tax breaks.

No, the US government stepped way over the line from 'Conservatism' when Bush took office.

 

[edward]

Well I find that extremely hard to believe. Let's see...about 4 year per station times 7 stations is about 28 years of service plus training time puts you at about 29 years of service...I don't think so buddy..nice try.

what makes you think I spent 4 years per station. I was with the SR71 program and was all over the world including foreign installions in six years.

quit thinking that you know everything kid

 

[The Smoking Man]

The government does not have to act for the will of faction, not now and not ever!



Again?...this is the first time you have asked me that. I can answer that with any kind of opinion at all. The constitution was designed to protect the liberties of the individual. Its goal is diffuse the voice of the people through a complex system of republican representation and checks and balances. I believe James Madison and the Federalist got most of it right when they drafted the constitution.

I asked you if the government is responsible to the will of the majority in a democracy and you responded that they do not have to answer to the will of 'faction'.

Can you explain the terms and how the 'Majority in a Democracy' is considered a 'Faction'?

 

[GENIERE]

…

Do you believe that all us citizens should now, if they are of service age, go down to the registration office and sign up for service to put in their two years in Iraq?

Really dumb! Only leftist politicians want a draft.

And if they refuse to do so and they are the majority of the population and the majority of the population refuses the draft, do you think the government is correct in acting against the majority of the people by deliberately acting against the will of the democracy by penalizing them for 'not paying'?

And dumber! Majority means “a greater number” if the term confuses you.

Again, do you believe the government reflects the will of the people …?

Ours does, does yours?

..

 

[Townsend]

what makes you think I spent 4 years per station. I was with the SR71 program and was all over the world including foreign installions in six years.

quit thinking that you know everything kid

They don't PCS people for such short periods...sorry to break it to you dude.

I would expect that someone with any service at all would know the difference between temporary assignments and a PCS.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Good point...some kind of service would be nice though.

So are you saying that just because all the children of senators and congressmen who can afford to pay for their education out of their pockets should be exempt from this service because of an accident of birth?

So does a child who is ward of people with less intelligence or business accumen simply have to serve because his parents are ignorant and unable to pay?

Does this go against the previous assumption that the poor who are in need of services are required to pay with 'service' are NOT worse off than the children of the rich, suburban parents?

What of the incidents several years ago of soldiers having to collect food stamps to feed their families? Does this support your theory that military families are relatively 'well off'? And if they are, why didn't they turn to their families instead?

Something seems a little 'out of tune' in your theory vs. reality.

 

[Archon]

Really dumb! Only leftist politicians want a draft.

Would you care to justify your use of the world "only?" Especially if you plan to insult others based on your claims...

And dumber! Majority means “a greater number” if the term confuses you.

I don't see a problem with The Smoking Man's use of the world "majority." He appears to be trying to demonstrate the inconsistency in the idea of a government that is, within reason, based upon the will of the majority, but that would punish the members of that majority for refusing to risk their lives for cause in which they don't believe.

Ours does, does yours?

Irrelevant. This is a discussion about the United States. China is not relevant, at least not in the way you suggest.

 

[The Smoking Man]

Really dumb! Only leftist politicians want a draft.
And dumber! Majority means “a greater number” if the term confuses you.

Sorry, who mentioned a draft? I was talking about Townsend's theory that all people should put in 2 years.

Are you implying Townsend is a leftist because he believes in manditory service?

Even China doesn't have manditory service.

Ours does, does yours?..

What government would that be? Where do I live and where am I from? Who IS my government?

 

[Townsend]

What of the incidents several years ago of soldiers having to collect food stamps to feed their families? Does this support your theory that military families are relatively 'well off'? And if they are, why didn't they turn to their families instead?

What the heck are you saying? I could have gotten food stamps for the first three years I was in the Navy if I had a family to support! Who cares?

My theory is that if my father was in the service then I would have been well off most of the time. What the heck does that have to do with some 19 year old that has a wife and 4 kids? What, just because he enlisted you think that he falls into the same group of people I was describing earlier? This is getting stupid...

 

[Townsend]

So are you saying that just because all the children of senators and congressmen who can afford to pay for their education out of their pockets should be exempt from this service because of an accident of birth?

Yes I am...

If I work hard to become successful don't I have the right to pay for my kids education the best way I see fit? Most people cannot afford to send their kids to Harvard, does that mean that the rich who can afford it shouldn't be allowed to send their kids there?