Work done by permanent magnets

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the work done by permanent magnets, particularly focusing on the source of energy when magnets attract ferromagnetic materials. Participants explore the interplay between magnetic fields, magnetic moments, and energy density in different contexts, including vacuum and materials with varying permeability.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant recalls that the energy stored in a magnetic field is related to the integral of the dot product of magnetic field and flux density vectors, questioning the source of energy when a magnet attracts iron.
  • Another participant suggests that if the magnetic field strength H is zero, then the permeability must be infinite, leading to the idea that magnets attract materials with the highest permeability.
  • A participant reiterates the question of where the energy comes from when a magnet does work, emphasizing the need for clarification on this point.
  • One participant discusses the concept of magnetic energy density and how it changes when a piece of iron is introduced, suggesting that the loss of energy density in the magnetic field is converted to mechanical energy.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express uncertainty regarding the source of energy when magnets do work, with multiple competing views on the relationship between magnetic fields, permeability, and energy conversion. The discussion remains unresolved.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference various assumptions about magnetic fields and energy density, including the roles of permeability and magnetic moments, but do not resolve these assumptions or provide a unified framework for understanding the energy dynamics involved.

xareu
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I recall that the energy stored in a magnetic field is half the volume integral of the dot product of magnetic field and flux density vectors (H and B). When you place a piece of iron near a magnet, it does a work by attracting it. If H is 0 (I think there is only the magnetic moment vector M and the flux density B), where does this energy come from?. Is not HxB always applicable?
If the answer is that it was stored when the magnet was "created", how is it "replenished" when the piece of iron is removed (since the magnet can attract pieces of iron again and again)?
 
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xareu said:
If H is 0 (I think there is only the magnetic moment vector M and the flux density B), where does this energy come from?
H = B/μ , so if B>0 and H=0, μ must be infinit.
A magnet will always attrack the material/liquid that has the greatest μ-value surrounding it, and will repel the materials/liquids with lower μ-value.

So say that you submerge a magnet in a liquid containing iron particles, and that the liquid has the greatest μ-value, the magnet will repel the iron particles and will substitute the left volume by liquid, hence doing work to the liquid instead.
 
Yes, I do know that the magnet does a work. Here is where my question comes from: where does this work (energy) come from?
 
xareu said:
Here is where my question comes from: where does this work (energy) come from?
Say you have a magnet in vacuum/air and that within a small volume close to a pole,
there is a magnetic energy density = ½*B*H [ J/m3 ].
Closing up a piece of iron ( with the same small volume ), the B-field will be almost the same, but the H-field will be weakened within said volume, because now the μ0 permeability is substituded by a μ = μ0r permeability ( H = B/μ , μr > 1 ).

Hence the said volume loose magnetic energy density, and this lost energy will be converted to mechanical energy.
 
Understood, thanks a lot Hesch
 

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