Consciousness and quantum theory

AlanPartr
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I have just finished reading the ghost in the atom by P Davis and was intrigued by John Wheeler's interpretation of quantum theory where the wave function collapses when it enters the conciousness of an observer. I was wondering if since the book was published any progress has been made on this or whether it has been disproved.
 
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Not conclusively either way, as far as I know. But I think the idea is mostly not accepted because it makes lots of assumptions, carries a lot of metaphysical baggage, and contains paradoxes like Wigner's Friend - basically a version of the schrodinger's cat problem with a human. Then, when the box is closed, and no one can observe the other, is the occupant real or are the experimentalists outside real?
 
If you take this to the extreme you could say the collapse of the wave function is the brain simply making an irreversible decision about which possibility to follow. How do we know that the other possibilities don't still exist outside our brain, provided our
brain sticks to it's story?
 
An unconscious observer works just as well.
 
Originally posted by Eh
An unconscious observer works just as well.

That response is getting smaller and smaller each time this issue's brought up, eh?

jackle, would you agree that our brains are made up of cells, which are made up of atoms, which are made up of subatomic particles? If so, what exactly is the difference, to a subatomic particle encountering another subatomic particle that is part of a brain, between that subatomic particle, and another that is a part of a rock, or a part of a glass of water?
 
Exactly Mentat. So why should the wave function collapse at all? If one particle can't collapse the wave function, or two, or three or three thousand, why should our brains? If it relys on consciousness perhaps the collapse is an illusion created by the nature of consciousness. This would explain why it relys on consciousness to 'work'. There is no other good explanation I have heard.

Maybe all those over-lapping realities are too much for us to focus on. We just experience one reality which evolves inside our consciousness. Out there, nothing has collapsed at all. This would mean that we are actually all alone in our own little world - a good reason for thinking up a better explanation fast!
 
Originally posted by jackle
Exactly Mentat. So why should the wave function collapse at all? If one particle can't collapse the wave function, or two, or three or three thousand, why should our brains?

That's the point, jackle, our brains have nothing to do with it. Particles do indeed collapse the wave-functions of other particles, through energetic reactions, but the point of my post was that whether the particle belongs to a brain or to a rock is irrelevant, and the wave-function will collapse regardless.

If it relys on consciousness perhaps the collapse is an illusion created by the nature of consciousness. This would explain why it relys on consciousness to 'work'. There is no other good explanation I have heard.

But it doesn't rely on consciousness. That (again) was the point of my post. Consciousness isn't even recognizable at the subatomic level, and the mathematics and physics of QM work just fine without the addition of the necessity for consciousness.
 
Horray!:smile:
 
Originally posted by jackle
Horray!:smile:

Huh?
 
  • #10
Originally posted by Mentat
That's the point, jackle, our brains have nothing to do with it. Particles do indeed collapse the wave-functions of other particles, through energetic reactions,
Do we know that? I'm still unclear on the orthodox view of what collapses waves.


But it doesn't rely on consciousness. That (again) was the point of my post. Consciousness isn't even recognizable at the subatomic level, and the mathematics and physics of QM work just fine without the addition of the necessity for consciousness. [/B]
Except that consciousness creates them.
 
  • #11
Originally posted by Canute
Do we know that? I'm still unclear on the orthodox view of what collapses waves.

Well, that's the thing about Theoretical Physics. There is no real "orthodox" view on most of the current issues. Energetic reactions can collapse wave-functions in different ways...it doesn't always occur, but sometimes it does.

Except that consciousness creates them.

Consciousness discovers them.
 
  • #12
Maybe all those over-lapping realities are too much for us to focus on. We just experience one reality which evolves inside our consciousness. Out there, nothing has collapsed at all. This would mean that we are actually all alone in our own little world - a good reason for thinking up a better explanation fast!

Could it be "belief" or "faith" that an event will happen collapses the wavefunction?
 
  • #13
What experimentation can demonstrate that consciousness can collapse waves or particles?

Consciousness was addressed by Albert Einstein.

"A human being is part of the whole, called by us 'Universe'; a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest -- a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness.

This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and affection for a few persons nearest us.

Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole nature in its beauty.

Nobody is able to achieve this completely but striving for such achievement is, in itself, a part of the liberation and a foundation for inner security."

We see our reality as we assume it exists
 

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  • #14
Originally posted by Mentat
Well, that's the thing about Theoretical Physics. There is no real "orthodox" view on most of the current issues. Energetic reactions can collapse wave-functions in different ways...it doesn't always occur, but sometimes it does.
This means that we know for certain that a conscious observer is not required to collapse a wave function. Are you sure about that? I thought it was still being debated.

Consciousness discovers them. [/B]
That's an odd view. Isn't mathematics the study of numbers?
 
  • #15
Originally posted by Canute
This means that we know for certain that a conscious observer is not required to collapse a wave function. Are you sure about that? I thought it was still being debated.

Not exactly. It's still being debated whether consciousness plays a role in collapsing the wave function, but it is not under debate whether this is necessary (at least, not in purely mathematical terms).

That's an odd view. Isn't mathematics the study of numbers?

Consciousness discovers the relationships that exist in nature, and then creates (you were right about that, I just mis-read you) the mathematics to understand them.
 
  • #16
Originally posted by Canute
This means that we know for certain that a conscious observer is not required to collapse a wave function. Are you sure about that? I thought it was still being debated.

You are wise to question these things Canute. There are some very bold statements being made in this thread. It's a complicated topic and any serious study will leave many questions. Current research is still being done in this area and many questions remain. The best thing to do is to study as much as you can and try to understand it yourself to the best of your ability and develop your own view. This is one of those topics that is complex enough that three different people will give you three different spins depending on the view of reality they intend to support.
 
  • #17
Fliption's right that you should continue to search for answers to these still-unanswered questions. However, there is one thing that cannot be disproven, merely on the basis of the fact that it is a negations, and negations can't be disproven...and that is that the mathematics of Quantum Mechanics work to describe the behavior of a particle very accurately, and can do so without the intoduction of conscious observation. The addition of the idea that consciousness is necessary is for the purpose of conceptualization and comprehension; and may indeed turn out to be true, but is not necessary for the mathematics to work, and is therefore (in my opinion) an unnecessary add-on that defies most of the things we know about consciousness and the brain.
 
  • #18
Originally posted by Mentat
and that is that the mathematics of Quantum Mechanics work to describe the behavior of a particle very accurately, and can do so without the intoduction of conscious observation. The addition of the idea that consciousness is necessary is for the purpose of conceptualization and comprehension; and may indeed turn out to be true, but is not necessary for the mathematics to work, and is therefore (in my opinion) an unnecessary add-on that defies most of the things we know about consciousness and the brain.

This is true because there is no number called consciousness. It's the interpretation of what the math means that is the struggle. As opposed to calling it an unnecessary addition, I think this step is crucial and scientific. Without it we have nothing but math.
 
  • #19
I agree about keeping an open mind. My questions were intended to suggest that not everyone here was doing that. As Fliption said, there are some over-bold claims being made. As far as I'm aware the details of relationship between wave-collapse and conscious observation remain a mystery, or at least a matter of debate.
 
  • #20
Originally posted by Canute

I agree about keeping an open mind. My questions were intended to suggest that not everyone here was doing that. As Fliption said, there are some over-bold claims being made. As far as I'm aware the details of relationship between wave-collapse and conscious observation remain a mystery, or at least a matter of debate.


The debate continues of this inexplicable relationship of wave-collapse and observations made by a conscious preception. Do we see reality as we assume it exists?

http://www.swcp.com/~hswift/swc/Summer99/goswami9901.htm

The interpretational difficulties of quantum mechanics can be solved with the hypothesis (von Neumann, 1955; Wigner, 1962) that consciousness collapses the quantum wave function. The paradoxes raised against this hypothesis have now all been satisfactorily solved (Bass, 1971; Blood, 1993; Goswami, 1989, 1993; Stapp, 1993). There is, however, one question that continues to be raised: Is consciousness absolutely necessary for interpreting quantum mechanics? Can we find other alternatives to collapse and consciousness as the collapser?

Some of these alternatives propose to modify quantum mechanics in a major way (for example, nonlinear theories); others are not philosophically satisfactory (for example, decoherence theories); still others invoke other questionable physical theories in order to make sense of quantum mechanics (Cramers, 19; Penrose, 1994). But there are two theories, one due to David Bohm (19), and the other called the many worlds theory (Everett, 1957), that still attract a lot of adherents.

In this short paper, we will argue that Bohm's theory is better interpreted with collapse of the wave function (and therefore, consciousness brought into the arena). As for the many worlds theory, even the latest versions of this theory requires special treatment of the conscious observer in order to make sense, and is thus a dualist theory (readers can verify this following the same general argument as Squires (1987)). Some final comments are also made about the implication of this reinterpretation for Bohm's philosophy of implicate and explicate order.

The Reinterpretation of Bohm's Causal Interpretation

Bohm's basic idea is to represent the situation of quantum mechanics with a wave piloting a particle, an idea he took from de Broglie (19). However, whereas de Broglie envisioned quantum objects as a physical wave piloting a physical particle, Bohm's waves are not physical waves; instead, they satisfy the Schroedinger equation. In other words, they are wave of possibility given by the quantum wave function. By writing the wave function as a product of two quantities -- the amplitude (whose square gives us the probability of finding the object in a given region of space) and the phase, Bohm does recover Newton's equation for a particle with coordinate x (and velocity v) evolving in a trajectory. The trajectory then is claimed to represent the real world of Newtonian vintage. The wave guides the trajectory through the so-called quantum potential in addition to whatever other force-field the object is under. This quantum potential is non-local and the effect of it continues even in empty space, so, for example, Newton's first law that objects travel in straight lines in the absence of any external forces no longer applies.

In the case of the double-slit experiment, for example, Bohm's particle equation can show us curved trajectories of how a particle may be able to go through one slit and still arrive at classically forbidden places on a fluorescent plate. How does the particle know that the other slit is open and veer itself to the quantum mechanically allowed places? Through the nonlocal influence of the quantum potential, which acts as a source of "active information."

Because the particle equation has been derived from the Schroedinger equation with only a little bit of redefinition of momentum (so that both momentum and position of the particle are simultaneously definable), it is assumed that Bohm's theory is equivalent to quantum mechanics (although there are some subtle differences). Bohm and his collaborators think that this is a causal interpretation of quantum mechanics because a classical trajectory has been calculated. But this thinking is fallacious.

The classical equation in Bohm's theory is not, strictly speaking, a space-time equation because the quantum potential depends on the wave function, which has no space-time existence until it is collapsed. Thus the causal discontinuity of quantum mechanics still remains because without wave function collapse, without knowing where the particle ends up, Bohm's method cannot be applied to calculate the particle trajectory.

Through sheer sophistry, Bohm and his collaborators avoid dealing with the fundamental problem of quantum measurement: why only one of the possibilities become actual in a measurement while all others do not. As Henry Stapp (1989) has already pointed out, the measurement problem is "bypassed" by assuming that the quantum potential forces the particle into one channel, although the other channels of the wave function remain empty. Stapp also points out that only the probability is testable even in Bohm's theory (as in quantum mechanics), not the quantum potential. In Stapp's opinion, a theory such as Bohm's that does not add anything tangible to quantum mechanics, but only adds extra elements on the basis of classical intuition, is not worth much investigation.

However, over the years, Bohm's theory has enjoyed a certain popularity and should not be dismissed off hand. Like Stapp, we believe that the measurement problem is not solved by Bohm's interpretation of his mathematics, but suppose we interpret Bohm's equations without any classical prejudice. What then?

Suppose we agree, as logic dictates, that Bohm's calculations are pertinent only in the aftermath of the wave function collapse, only when we know where the particle has ended up in a given measurement. Bohm's method then enables us to calculate the entire trajectory leading to the point of collapse. Thus the collapse can be seen to entail not only the possibility wave collapsing to a particle at the point of collapse, but the collapse of the entire trajectory going backwards in time.

Notice that, in this view, discontinuity of collapse remains: out of all the quantum possibilities a unique actuality is discontinuously chosen (by our observation and in our experience). But now we can go back in time and reconstruct the pathway of events in space-time leading to the event of collapse. We cannot relive these past events in the present moment, but there may be (fossil) remnants of these events now that may enable us to verify the validity of such a reconstruction.

Bohm has always emphasized how beautiful his theory is for understanding and appreciating quantum nonlocality as the action of the quantum potential. Yet Stapp's criticism cannot be denied: the quantum potential is not an observable. But under the action of the quantum potential, the calculated trajectories of Bohm's theory have unusual characteristics. Could these unusual characteristics be observable?

One such unusual characteristic is faster-than-light propagation. In the phenomenon of quantum tunneling, the time taken by a quantum object while going through the tunnel can be measured, and such measurements are now revealing a compelling case of faster-than-light propagation (Chiao). This, in our opinion, proves the usefulness of Bohm's theory.

Is such faster-than-light propagation against the theory of relativity? Hardly. We still cannot directly observe the object in its faster-than-light condition, any attempt to observe will destroy the tunnel. Speed-of-light limit applies to trajectories that are directly observable; the trajectories of objects in tunneling a' la Bohm are unobservable, so no challenge of relativity theory is necessary.

continued
 
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  • #21
Wave-Collapse Part 2

Originally posted by onycho
The debate continues of this inexplicable relationship of wave-collapse and observations made by a conscious preception. Do we see reality as we assume it exists?

Implicate and Explicate Order

In his philosophical writings, Bohm also also leaves us with the impression that reality comes to us via two orders, one implicate or implicit or hidden that guides the behavior of what is explicate or explicit, the order that we see, the order that is causal and objective. With a reinterpretation of Bohm's work, his philosophy of implicate and explicate orders also needs to be modified.

The implicate order is easily seen as the transcendent order of quantum potential where ontologically, the quantum wave functions or possibility waves reside. The explicate order, however, is neither causal nor objective. It is not causal because there is no way to calculate the trajectories of objects in it a priori and thus there is no reason to assume that they exist a priori, before the discontinuous wave function collapse. It is not objective, because the result of wave function collapse happens in our experience; collapse cannot be eliminated and neither can the observer from our description of reality. The collapse of the present event, however, brings about the collapse of an entire pathway of events leading to the present moment going backwards in time. These past "events" cannot be lived now, but certain remnants or memories of these events elicited now can reveal their implicit existence.

In the human dimension, the idealist interpretation is being used to construct a new science within consciousness that can treat not only the material world, but also our internal mental world, for example, a theory of creativity (Goswami, 1998). A creative experience is sudden and discontinuous, a quantum leap, according to this theory. Although many creative people describe their creative act this way, a considerable amount of controversy exists showing a lot of disagreement with this position. Bohm's ideas can resolve the controversy. Although discontinuity dominates the creative experience, after the event, if there is enough memory from the ex-post-facto collapsed past, then one can reinterpret one's experience as a continuous one, especially if one's prejudices are disposed that way.

In conclusion, with this straightforward interpretation of Bohm's work, we have demonstrated that collapse of the wave function and consciousness as the causal agent for collapse remains basic in any interpretation of quantum mechanics and any understanding of quantum measurement.
 
  • #22


Originally posted by onycho

In conclusion, with this straightforward interpretation of Bohm's work, we have demonstrated that collapse of the wave function and consciousness as the causal agent for collapse remains basic in any interpretation of quantum mechanics and any understanding of quantum measurement.

QUANTUM THEORY OF CONSCIOUSNESS

EVAN HARRIS WALKER

Here is some insight on the subject.

http://users.erols.com/wcri/CONSCIOUSNESS.html
 
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  • #23
Onycho.

Thanks for that. It's funny how science cannot get rid of consciousness. It must be damn annoying. [b(]
 
  • #24
Originally posted by Canute
Onycho.

Thanks for that. It's funny how science cannot get rid of consciousness. It must be damn annoying. [b(]

It is amusing to see the majority of the scientific community attempting to observe a chaotic universal reality becoming a state of conscious equilibrium.

Experimentation and results send many thinkers into a frenzied scramble to find alternative theories which would eliminate the need for a 'Watchmaker.' A general unified equation that fits the entire universe physics instead of string theories and involuted universes that have always been present.
 
  • #25
People,
This is getting ridiculous. No offense, onycho, but nothing that's been posted here has shown that consciousness is necessary for quantum weirdness. The introduction of consciousness as a key player in QM is for the purpose of conceptulatization and comprehension, it is not necessary for the mathematics or for the physics.

Trying to discover quantum theories of consciousness is also a dead-end, AFAIC, since if consciousness were a quantum phenomenon, then thought would have to exist as discreet entities...and this cannot be the case, as per the homunculun problem of philosophies of the mind.

In short, the introduction of consciousness into quantum mechanics is just a desperate attempt to conceive of it, when (in my opinion) conception is almost completely irrelevant to use, and is thus not a worthy goal.
 
  • #26
Originally posted by Mentat

People,
This is getting ridiculous. No offense, onycho, but nothing that's been posted here has shown that consciousness is necessary for quantum weirdness. The introduction of consciousness as a key player in QM is for the purpose of conceptulatization and comprehension, it is not necessary for the mathematics or for the physics.

Mentat, with all due respect, you have posted nothing that proves quantum weirdness must only be interpreted by currently known mathematics or physics.

Trying to discover quantum theories of consciousness is also a dead-end, AFAIC, since if consciousness were a quantum phenomenon, then thought would have to exist as discreet entities...and this cannot be the case, as per the homunculun problem of philosophies of the mind.

Respectfully quantum theories of consciousness is not a dead-end (AFAIC's canon) as consciousness reality would necessarily have to be left unexplained.

In short, the introduction of consciousness into quantum mechanics is just a desperate attempt to conceive of it, when (in my opinion) conception is almost completely irrelevant to use, and is thus not a worthy goal.

Your above opinion statement is a dichotomy on its face. For you to conceive that consciousness and quantum mechanics are irreconcilable is truly a desperate attempt to hold long held theories sacrosanct.

The more authentic illustration of the physical world became possible only when the ego-centric concept of objective and universal human perception was abandoned.
 
  • #27
The more authentic illustration of the physical world became possible only when the ego-centric concept of objective and universal human perception was abandoned.

Onycho, you can assert this, but you won't find many real practicing quantum physicists who would sign on to it. There has been a great effort in the last decades to get rid of the "consciousness thing" which was emphasized IMHO not by the Copenhagen school but by Wigner.

The Copenhagen view was that QM was about doing experiments with prepared materials, and the only conscieousness was that of the ordinary physicists going about their busines in their laboratories.

It was Wigner who proceded to analyze the lab intruments as quantum systems in themselves, with wave functions to be reduced, and eventually convincing himself, like a new Decartes, that only the consciousness of the experimenters remained unreduced,and therefore was the cause of the wave reduction of the whole shebang.

Not many physicists ever bought Wigner's vision, but mystics jumped on it merrily. Physics has been digging out ever since. The modern theories of decoherence and consistent histories represent the professional physicists' attempt to deal with interpretation questions in a non-woozy manner.

So you can expect to meet resistance whenever you attempt to introduce the "consciousness is needed to collapse the wave function" meme on a serious scientific board.
 
  • #28
Originally posted by selfAdjoint
Not many physicists ever bought Wigner's vision, but mystics jumped on it merrily. Physics has been digging out ever since. The modern theories of decoherence and consistent histories represent the professional physicists' attempt to deal with interpretation questions in a non-woozy manner.

So you can expect to meet resistance whenever you attempt to introduce the "consciousness is needed to collapse the wave function" meme on a serious scientific board.

As you say, "modern theories of decoherence may attempt to deal with
with interpretation questions in a non-woozy manner" but the important point for the measurement problem is that it is decoherence in the measuring apparatus which transfers the quantum property of a microscopic system into something real and distinguishable -- and observationally meaningful -- in the macroscopic world.

After impressive proofs of a string of theorems establishing the equivalence of measurement data and microscopic properties, the equivalence of the respective probabilities, and the outcome of repeated measurements of the same system with respect to the same observable, Omnès (1994, p. 338) derives the general form for state vector reduction. Ironically, in light of the comment sometimes made that decoherence offers merely a "calculational tool" (Kiefer 1991, p. 379), this rule for state vector reduction emphatically does not describe a real physical process; it is, instead, merely a computational convenience for predicting the outcomes of measurements. State vector reduction, on the other hand, may be dispensed with altogether as an actual physical process. Instead, the wavefunctions of measuring apparatuses and the like could, in principle, be followed in minute detail, nonetheless turning up -- on account of decoherence in the measuring apparatus -- the very same results. With its stipulation that macroscopic objects behave classically (a stipulation, incidentally, which is explicitly inconsistent), the Copenhagen interpretation guarantees the same calculational result, but on the present view both the quasi-classical macroscopic behaviour and the mathematical rule of state vector reduction can instead be derived.

Whether decoherence answers all the philosophical questions we'd like answered, and in particular whether it overcomes John Bell's (1990) criticism of interpretations of quantum mechanics which start and end by pointing out that quantum theory gives the right answers -- interpretations which he derides as 'For All Practical Purposes'.

I fear that modern physics may believe that they are digging their way out but in my humble opinion may just be digging a deeper hole.
 
  • #29
Originally posted by onycho
Mentat, with all due respect, you have posted nothing that proves quantum weirdness must only be interpreted by currently known mathematics or physics.

Shifting the Burden of Proof argument flaw.

You are making the unusual claim, the burden of proof is on you to produce evidence supporting it. It is not the burdon of proof of others to disprove it.

Add onto that, Extraordinary claims require extraordinary supporting evidence.
 
  • #30
Originally posted by onycho
Mentat, with all due respect, you have posted nothing that proves quantum weirdness must only be interpreted by currently known mathematics or physics.

What do you mean? Quantum Mechanics is a mathematical theory. It is used to describe physical phenomena. Why should it be anything but mathematics and physics? What else should there be?

Respectfully quantum theories of consciousness is not a dead-end (AFAIC's canon) as consciousness reality would necessarily have to be left unexplained.

Conscious reality?

Your above opinion statement is a dichotomy on its face. For you to conceive that consciousness and quantum mechanics are irreconcilable is truly a desperate attempt to hold long held theories sacrosanct.

Tell me which of the following you disagree with, please:

1) Your brain is made of cells.
2) Cells are made of molecules.
3) Molecules are made of atoms.
4) Atoms are made of subatomic particles.
5) Subatomic particles are the ones that are observed performing "weird" acts, due to quantum Uncertainty.
6) The brain, being made up of trillions of subatomic particles, isn't recognizable at the subatomic level.
7) Consciousness takes place in the brain's processes.

If all of these things are true (and current science holds all of the them to be so, but I'm asking for your opinion), then the conclusion is that consciousness is unrecognizable at the quantum level.

The more authentic illustration of the physical world became possible only when the ego-centric concept of objective and universal human perception was abandoned.

So, there's no objective world?
 
  • #31
Originally posted by onycho
As you say, "modern theories of decoherence may attempt to deal with
with interpretation questions in a non-woozy manner" but the important point for the measurement problem is that it is decoherence in the measuring apparatus which transfers the quantum property of a microscopic system into something real and distinguishable -- and observationally meaningful -- in the macroscopic world.



I fear that modern physics may believe that they are digging their way out but in my humble opinion may just be digging a deeper hole.

First, I wish you would give a cite, if not a link, to these long texts you post. It's like arguing with a shadow.

Second, it's hilarious that these deep thinkers think they are critiquing quantum mechanics when it just goes ahead discovering new hings about the universe while they remain stuck like little kids trying to assemble a kit that has both mysticism and quantum in it, and they just can;'t get them to fit together.

Sorry about the general rather than particular level of this post, but as I said, arguing with a shadow.
 
  • #32
Originally posted by selfAdjoint
Second, it's hilarious that these deep thinkers think they are critiquing quantum mechanics when it just goes ahead discovering new hings about the universe while they remain stuck like little kids trying to assemble a kit that has both mysticism and quantum in it, and they just can't get them to fit together.[/B]
Yeah, it's funny how many scientists and philsophers are prone to it. Perhaps it's because the mechanisms of quantum mechanics and the nature of matter and consciousness remain a bit of a mystery.
 
  • #33
Originally posted by Canute
Yeah, it's funny how many scientists and philsophers are prone to it. Perhaps it's because the mechanisms of quantum mechanics and the nature of matter and consciousness remain a bit of a mystery.

Good observation. Philosophy has often tried to unify the most mysterious of phenomena with each other...I don't know why, but this seems to be the case throughout history. For example, when the "essence" of "life" was not understood, people tried to unify this mystery with the mystery of physicality vs. sprituality.
 
  • #34
Originally posted by Mentat

Conscious reality?

Tell me which of the following you disagree with, please:
If all of these things are true (and current science holds all of the them to be so, but I'm asking for your opinion), then the conclusion is that consciousness is unrecognizable at the quantum level.
So, there's no objective world?

Actually I choose to temporarily disagree with all of your statements. Reality may be somewhat different than conventional wisdom.

Your number 7 may be the reverse of conventional theory in a wholly physical universe.

For just a moment step outside of your fixed point of reference.

Consciousness may create all perceived reality in a dimension of timelessness or a singularity.

A localized perception of a reality where:

1) Your brain is made of cells.
2) Cells are made of molecules.
3) Molecules are made of atoms.
4) Atoms are made of subatomic particles.
5) Subatomic particles are the ones that are observed performing "weird" acts, due to quantum Uncertainty.
6) The brain, being made up of trillions of subatomic particles, isn't recognizable at the subatomic level.
7) Consciousness takes place in the brain's processes.

A dimension where human intellect finds finite limits but which allows humanity to merrily preceed to create experimental theories and observable findings.

Of course this premis would neither be measurable nor quantifiable and therefore easily discounted as metaphysical.

But then of course I could be wrong...
 
  • #35
Originally posted by onycho
Consciousness may create all perceived reality in a dimension of timelessness or a singularity.

A localized perception of a reality where:

1) Your brain is made of cells.
2) Cells are made of molecules.
3) Molecules are made of atoms.
4) Atoms are made of subatomic particles.
5) Subatomic particles are the ones that are observed performing "weird" acts, due to quantum Uncertainty.
6) The brain, being made up of trillions of subatomic particles, isn't recognizable at the subatomic level.
7) Consciousness takes place in the brain's processes.

Of course this premis would neither be measurable nor quantifiable and therefore easily discounted as metaphysical.

But then of course I could be wrong... [/B]
You could be, but I doubt it. The trouble is that your no. 7 isn't true if you're right. Much of the contents of consciousness may derive from the brain, but if consciousness 'creates all perceived reality' then it creates the brain.
 
  • #36
Originally posted by Canute

You could be, but I doubt it. The trouble is that your no. 7 isn't true if you're right. Much of the contents of consciousness may derive from the brain, but if consciousness 'creates all perceived reality' then it creates the brain.

Actually Canute you may have hit it on the mark. The possibility that consciousness might be a flow of some sort of plasma in a real dimension in which all human perception is in reality as we assume it exists.

Ergo the human brain, the universe, particles, energy and all the fixed physical laws maybe nothing simpler than a 'dimensional consciousness.'

It is very safe for all physicists, cosmologists or humanity to assume that we actually exist in a universe where primary forces, life forms and our senses are reality and solid. This dimension might even be a hologram which is known to be divisible infinitely and still each divided portion maintains the original form.

But as you say, "I doubt it."
 
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  • #37
Originally posted by onycho
Actually Canute you may have hit it on the mark. The possibility that consciousness might be a flow of some sort of plasma in a real dimension in which all human perception is in reality as we assume it exists.

Ergo the human brain, the universe, particles, energy and all the fixed physical laws maybe nothing simpler than a 'dimensional consciousness.'

As in the 'emptiness' of Buddhism or the 'Zero ontology'.

It is very safe for all physicists, cosmologists or humanity to assume that we actually exist in a universe where primary forces, life forms and our senses are reality and solid. This dimension might even be a hologram which is known to be divisible infinitely and still each divided portion maintains the original form.
Sorry, don't get that.
 
  • #38
Originally posted by Canute
As in the 'emptiness' of Buddhism or the 'Zero ontology'.
Sorry, don't get that.

In the measurements of a single hydrogen atom, the nucleus is so small that even photons cannot strike it so to be seen with the best electron microscope. The single electron is postulated to move around the nucleus in an orbit that does not decay.

If that nucleus could be enlarged to approximately a 4" diameter, the electron orbit would be approximately 8 miles out. If you extrapolate this fact to the known universe, approximately 99.99% would be space and the remainder particle matter. Not taking into account any other invisible matter that maintains gravitation which prevents the universe from expanding rapidly to nothing.

Einstein postulated that matter is condensed energy which can at times become matter or return to the energy state. QM introduces the uncertainty principle with particles ability to instantly communicate with other particles at unimaginable distances.

What exactly is real in this chaotic universe of particle/energies that arrange themselves in ways to form life, consciousness, matter and what makes the laws of nature stable?

The String Theory and all other accepted physics in a wholly physical universe seems inadequate to explain our reality. There has to be something very different to explain existence.

It would seem that all theories of physical laws in this universe are as valid or invalid as another.
 
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  • #39
Originally posted by onycho
The String Theory and all other accepted physics in a wholly physical universe seems inadequate to explain our reality. There has to be something very different to explain existence.
Yeah, all materialist reductions end in 'nothing'. That's why I mentioned emptiness.
 
  • #40
Originally posted by Canute

Yeah, all materialist reductions end in 'nothing'. That's why I mentioned emptiness.

You are correct about the Buddist philosophy which claims that all things arise out of emptiness.

But the Buddist philosophy also believes that sentinent beings arise from the same emptiness. Plato also believed in the same concepts but was most likely not aware of the Buddist theology.

Many scientists today also believe in these same concepts of all matter, energy and the entire universe arising out of the so-called Big Bang.

The only difference in my fictional premise is the fact that there is no sentinent beings, physical matter, laws of nature or anything else real. No Buddist reincarnations seeking perfection or anything else requiring a fixed universe.

[ur]http://www.users.globalnet.co.uk/~noelh/Holographic_universe.htm[/URL]

Noel Huntley, Ph.D.

Ouspensky, in his book A New Model of the Universe, states that everything is everywhere and always. Physicist John Wheeler of Princeton states that the geometrodynamical quantum foam of superspace represents a superhologram of the universe, and physicist Jack Sarfatti's interpretation of this quantum superspace is that the wormholes connect all parts of the universe directly to every other part. Leading physicist David Bohm stresses quantum interconnectedness and unbroken wholeness. Charles Muses and Arthur Young refer to objects as superhologram images. Science writer Michael Talbot reiterates that thought processes are holographic in that all thoughts are infinitely cross-referenced with all other thoughts. Physicist Keith Floyd states that holographic models of consciousness make such brain processes as memory, perception, and imaging clearly explainable. Science writer Fritjof Capra speaks of the universe as a hologram, in which each part determines the whole

Unfortunately there is no way to prove something so preposterous which questions an orthodox physical universe.
 
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  • #41
the enigma

Originally posted by Canute
Yeah, all materialist reductions end in 'nothing'. That's why I mentioned emptiness.

Originally posted by onycho
Actually Canute you may have hit it on the mark. The possibility that consciousness might be a flow of some sort of plasma in a real dimension in which all human perception is in reality as we assume it exists.

The enigma exists, that through scientific observation we have determnined that evolution of the less complex to the more complex systems occurs in the objective world, we do not know why only a little bit about how. We could go two ways Creationism or determinism, or is there another route? There seems to be deeply imbeded in all things, the know how to evolve and at the right moment, to do it. For that to be, there would have to be something to direct it. Or is it all by chance? Experimental testing on all levels from humans to atoms, indicate that consciousness might be imbeded in everything and works outside of the parameters of the material world. It would then have to be in all things, and on all levels. It could possibly be, a simple mathematical construct SAS by which on quote Vladmir, the equations of the electrical, magnetic and mechanical moments are designed specially to search for the laws of living substance in the mathematical form. By that way evolution would have many dead ends but always follow the lead. That SAS construct would then be Consciousness itself. Which then would bring up the question why does the objective world evolve, does it have a purpose? Or is it just an illusion that consciousness decided to imbed in the vary nature of this universe.
 
  • #42
Originally posted by onycho
Actually I choose to temporarily disagree with all of your statements. Reality may be somewhat different than conventional wisdom.

Your number 7 may be the reverse of conventional theory in a wholly physical universe.

For just a moment step outside of your fixed point of reference.

Consciousness may create all perceived reality in a dimension of timelessness or a singularity.

A localized perception of a reality where:

1) Your brain is made of cells.
2) Cells are made of molecules.
3) Molecules are made of atoms.
4) Atoms are made of subatomic particles.
5) Subatomic particles are the ones that are observed performing "weird" acts, due to quantum Uncertainty.
6) The brain, being made up of trillions of subatomic particles, isn't recognizable at the subatomic level.
7) Consciousness takes place in the brain's processes.

A dimension where human intellect finds finite limits but which allows humanity to merrily preceed to create experimental theories and observable findings.

Of course this premis would neither be measurable nor quantifiable and therefore easily discounted as metaphysical.

But then of course I could be wrong...

Not only could you be wrong, but you are challenging a large construct of knowledge, that has been gathered over centuries. I'm not saying it couldn't be wrong either...in fact, I challenge it all the time (when the opposition is in favor of it...the so-called "devil's advocate" approach), but not here. If you have some reason to postulate that it's wrong, then I'd like to see what the flaw is. Otherwise, science is innocent 'till proven guilty, eh? :smile:
 
  • #43
Originally posted by Canute
Yeah, all materialist reductions end in 'nothing'. That's why I mentioned emptiness.

Wrong. All materialist reductions end in that which can be reduced no further. Whether because spacetime loses meaning at any scale smaller than that, or because it literally has no mass but nonetheless exists, this is always (AFAIK) the case.
 
  • #44


Originally posted by Rader

The enigma exists, that through scientific observation we have determnined that evolution of the less complex to the more complex systems occurs in the objective world, we do not know why only a little bit about how. We could go two ways Creationism or determinism, or is there another route?

There just might be another route to an objective world than the two you mentioned. The indeterminism of 'freewill' which could enter into a chaotic universe becoming a simpler state of equilibrium. A system which is initially disorder (Big Bang) and which ultimately arranges itself into a state of homeostasis. The proverbial rearrangement of unrelated and chaotic particles into a universe where the immutable laws of physics can be more or less observed.

There seems to be deeply imbeded in all things, the know how to evolve and at the right moment, to do it. For that to be, there would have to be something to direct it. Or is it all by chance? Experimental testing on all levels from humans to atoms, indicate that consciousness might be imbeded in everything and works outside of the parameters of the material world. It would then have to be in all things, and on all levels. It could possibly be, a simple mathematical construct SAS by which on quote Vladmir, the equations of the electrical, magnetic and mechanical moments are designed specially to search for the laws of living substance in the mathematical form. By that way evolution would have many dead ends but always follow the lead. That SAS construct would then be Consciousness itself. Which then would bring up the question why does the objective world evolve, does it have a purpose? Or is it just an illusion that consciousness decided to imbed in the vary nature of this universe.

It seems that you have arrived at the very essence of the debate. Has this universe and its laws always been present in a timelessness infinite now or was there a beginning of everything?

The SAS construct is side-stepped by many simply because of that very indigestible concept of Consciousness. A reality being outside of any objective equation where a unified theory of all things and places exists.

The concept of 'purposeful evolution' is a malediction to the very concept of a Creator in the current world of physics and cosmology.

I actually held on to the illusion that there was some sense of order to the universe... I am now convinced that we are all living in a Chagall painting—a world where brides and grooms and cows and chickens and angels and sneakers are all mixed up together, sometimes floating in the air, sometimes upside down and everywhere.

ATTRIBUTION: Susan Lapinski
 
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  • #45
Originally posted by Mentat
Not only could you be wrong, but you are challenging a large construct of knowledge, that has been gathered over centuries. I'm not saying it couldn't be wrong either...in fact, I challenge it all the time (when the opposition is in favor of it...the so-called "devil's advocate" approach), but not here. If you have some reason to postulate that it's wrong, then I'd like to see what the flaw is. Otherwise, science is innocent 'till proven guilty, eh? :smile:

You are absolutely correct. Science had constructed a well postulated mass of knowledge over many centuries until some little German patent clerk overturned conventional wisdom.

It is better not to risk loss of observable truth than to chance error.

ATTRIBUTION: William James
 
  • #46


Originally posted by onycho
The enigma exists, that through scientific observation we have determnined that evolution of the less complex to the more complex systems occurs in the objective world, we do not know why only a little bit about how. We could go two ways Creationism or determinism, or is there another route?

There just might be another route to an objective world than the two you mentioned. The indeterminism of 'freewill' which could enter into a chaotic universe becoming a simpler state of equilibrium. A system which is initially disorder (Big Bang) and which ultimately arranges itself into a state of homeostasis. The proverbial rearrangement of unrelated and chaotic particles into a universe where the immutable laws of physics can be more or less observed.

Gee now i know i am not alone in the universe. Thoughts are not mine. Was that a statement, or do you perceive it as i do?

There seems to be deeply imbeded in all things, the know how to evolve and at the right moment, to do it. For that to be, there would have to be something to direct it. Or is it all by chance? Experimental testing on all levels from humans to atoms, indicate that consciousness might be imbeded in everything and works outside of the parameters of the material world. It would then have to be in all things, and on all levels. It could possibly be, a simple mathematical construct SAS by which on quote Vladmir, the equations of the electrical, magnetic and mechanical moments are designed specially to search for the laws of living substance in the mathematical form. By that way evolution would have many dead ends but always follow the lead. That SAS construct would then be Consciousness itself. Which then would bring up the question why does the objective world evolve, does it have a purpose? Or is it just an illusion that consciousness decided to imbed in the vary nature of this universe.

It seems that you have arrived at the very essence of the debate. Has this universe and its laws always been present in a timelessness infinite now or was there a beginning of everything?

Lets choose the latter, beginning of everything. Let's look at some evidence. We can answer that, with the data we have. CBR confirmation, understanding of when the laws were set, a basic picture of evolution from the Big Bang til now, conscious self aware humans to conceptualize all this.

But then we have the problems, 99.9 percent of everything is empty space, we can only account for a small percent of that in weight, we are in 4 differnet aware or dream states, we are aware, before our sences tell us they happen. Lot like an illusion.

The SAS construct is side-stepped by many simply because of that very indigestible concept of Consciousness. A reality being outside of any objective equation where a unified theory of all things and places exists.

That has been my point many times on other threads. There is a lot of evidence on our evolutionary level, where we can confirm to good probability, that consciousness is independent of the objective reality. So then which is reality?

The concept of 'purposeful evolution' is a malediction to the very concept of a Creator in the current world of physics and cosmology.

Nothing is motionless in this objective universe. Nothing with motion has no purpose. Purpose demands choice and choice free will. Free will creates duality. Negativity arises out of duality. Negativity is the illusion. The other side is positivity or unity which sees no sides.
Question: Why does an illusion have to evolve?
 
  • #47
the enigma

Originally posted by Rader

Gee now i know i am not alone in the universe. Thoughts are not mine. Was that a statement, or do you perceive it as i do?

Now only paranoia is sure that there is one behind the many. Whatever you think and do are yours alone just as you attempt to disparage concepts foreign to your experience. Do you perceive my meaning?

Lets choose the latter, beginning of everything. Let's look at some evidence. We can answer that, with the data we have. CBR confirmation, understanding of when the laws were set, a basic picture of evolution from the Big Bang til now, conscious self aware humans to conceptualize all this. But then we have the problems, 99.9 percent of everything is empty space, we can only account for a small percent of that in weight, we are in 4 differnet aware or dream states, we are aware, before our sences tell us they happen. Lot like an illusion.

So you are in possession of data and evidence of basic laws you know to be valid? Do you have four dream or illusion states in which you also hear voices?

That has been my point many times on other threads. There is a lot of evidence on our evolutionary level, where we can confirm to good probability, that consciousness is independent of the objective reality. So then which is reality?

To understand reality is not the same as to know about outward events. It is to perceive the essential nature of things. The best-informed man is not necessarily the wisest. Indeed there is a danger that precisely in the multiplicity of his knowledge he will lose sight of what is essential. But on the other hand, knowledge of an apparently trivial detail quite often makes it possible to see into the depth of things. And so the wise man will seek to acquire the best possible knowledge about events, but always without becoming dependent upon this knowledge. To recognize the significant in the factual is wisdom.

ATTRIBUTION: Dietrich Bonhoeffer
 
  • #48
animated images

Instead of going in semantics about consciousness I spent some days on the design of still images and animated images on the mechanism of consciousness. On http://www.mu6.com/consciousness2.html you will find three animated gif's showing the attention shift essential in the whole discussion, and our individual perception of reality.

Don't forget I come to this concept only based on one postulate about spacetime.
 
  • #49


Originally posted by pelastration
Instead of going in semantics about consciousness I spent some days on the design of still images and animated images on the mechanism of consciousness. On http://www.mu6.com/consciousness2.html you will find three animated gif's showing the attention shift essential in the whole discussion, and our individual perception of reality.
Don't forget I come to this concept only based on one postulate about spacetime.

Albert Einstein

"If you want to find out anything from the theoretical physicists about the methods they use, I advise you to stick closely to one principle: Don't listen to their words, fix your attention on their deeds."
 
  • #50
Onycho

You said - "The only difference in my fictional premise is the fact that there is no sentinent beings, physical matter, laws of nature or anything else real. No Buddist reincarnations seeking perfection or anything else requiring a fixed universe".

How does your view differ from the Buddhist view? It seems to be the same, as far as it goes, and aside from the fact that you're theorising rather than experiencing.
 
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