Is the Jet Age of Computers Revolutionizing User Interface Design?

[Cyrus]

I must admit. I am slowly becoming a tech junkie. I have office 2007, and its great. I use microsoft outlook to link to my msn mail and my school email -sweet. I also downloaded Internet Explorer 7, really really nice program. I have 7 home pages that all load up each time I open IE and it autosaves the passwords for them. So bing, there is Physicsforums, my school email, msn email, ebay, blackboard etc. And the fact that its all in tabs means I don't have my windows menubar full of IE tiles. Even more awesome is the google toolbar which let's me hight words, right click, and do a fast google search without typing a thing. Then I downloaded the latest version of AIM which let's you change the colors it displays. And the latest version of real player, which looks very nice.

It seems like computers are making another big jump in terms of user interface. Everything is now so clean, and user friendly. I am really impressed by what's being put out now. Very high quality.

Then there's the Iphone which has a moving google map on it, with that sweet touch screen. Ipods the size of a quarter. I love technology

I just want them to figure out a way to eliminate all these damn power cords all around the back of my computer.

I want to get vista because it looks so damn nice, but I only have 1 gig of ram and I hear its very slow with 1 gig. But I think given some time for MS to get the bugs out, its going to be a nice OS. I love XP. Its never crashed on me before.

 

[robphy]

Maybe soon...
http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/12/13/1714258 new Toshiba batteries
http://www.news.com/2100-1041_3-6196713.html Wireless USB
http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/storage/640gb-flash-hard-drive-for-a-paltry-19000-308398.php flash-based hard-drives (extreme edition)

If we had more efficient chips and better cooling systems, maybe we wouldn't need the numerous fans.Going on now...
http://www.gottabemobile.com/

 

[Cyrus]

Oh, and I forgot to mention my favorite website.

www.pandora.com

You put in music you like. It has algorithms based on your choices (thumbs up or down) that finds new songs you would possibly like. The more you listen to it, the more it refines itself to your tastes. Dont like something? Give it a thumbs down and you never hear it again. Really great website.

Thats also a new area. Interactive software that learns based on your choices. Very cool.

And the thing is, most of this stuff don't cost you a dime! (You just have to know what to look for)

 

[Moonbear]

You realize that all those features in IE 7 have been long present in Firefox, right? You can get rid of all the power cords by going wireless...bluetooth is great for that.

Vista looks nice, but isn't worth it, in my opinion. It seems to be just trying to look like a Mac, but without the functionality. Slow if you don't have a brand new computer, and a LOT of compatibility problems with external devices. I know a few people who got computers with Vista and wiped it off and reinstalled XP.

I don't love XP, but it hasn't outright crashed on me yet. It seems to be pretty stupid though...I tell it over and over to NOT give me these stupid pop up notifications (I know when I don't have a network cable plugged in) and every time I restart, it forgets those settings. I finally gave up and just let it do what it wants.

I did get the new Mac OS though...installed it on the iMac at home. SWEEEEEET! I admit, I got it for the bells and whistles, not because I needed it. I'm not installing it on the laptop though, because I'm not sure a computer that old can take it and I'm also not sure all the software I use is compatible yet (everything I've played with so far is, but I don't want to desperately need something and find out I can't open it). Once I've played with it long enough to be sure I haven't lost anything in the upgrade to need what's on the backup drive, I'll reformat that and start playing with the Wayback Machine on it (I think that's what it's called).

Now if I could only figure out a way to get Macs and PCs to synchronize files so they all have the most current version of whatever I'm working on, I'd be thrilled...but not counting on that one.

 

[Cyrus]

Make a shared folder that both computers can access through your network. Then if you change anything on that folder by any computer, both see that change made.

Here is the thing about firefox. It is nice, yes. But its redundant. I don't like having programs on my computer. The less the better. I hate excess. So now IE7 does all the things Firefox does, and I don't need more space used up on a redundant program.

 

[Moonbear]

Make a shared folder that both computers can access through your network. Then if you change anything on that folder by any computer, both see that change made.

That would be great if I could convince the PC to talk to the Mac network. The Macs have no problem, but the PC gets stubborn.

 

[robphy]

Firefox has a great set of plugins that improve the browsing experience.
I really like "Nuke Anything Enhanced", Adblock, and downthemall.

 

[Moonbear]

Here is the thing about firefox. It is nice, yes. But its redundant. I don't like having programs on my computer. The less the better. I hate excess. So now IE7 does all the things Firefox does, and I don't need more space used up on a redundant program.

I consider IE to be the redundant program. IE is just too vulnerable to viruses and such that I refuse to even open it. I used it once...to download Firefox. I'd use Outlook, but the morons who run our IT department make us use a really crappy email program and won't allow POP or IMAP access. But, their stupidity is a whole 'nother thread of rants (I was talking with some of the other faculty about how counterproductive most of their policies are...we have to change our passwords so often that none of us can remember them...walk into any of our offices and look for the passwords on a sticky note on the monitor...I only use that one to access the parking department anyway, and I keep telling the IT folks that I really will NOT object if someone hacks in and pays my parking fees for me They don't find this funny.)

 

[Cyrus]

I like the little tile button on the side of the tabs. You can see a mini tile of all the tabs you have of your web pages and even refresh individual webpages. Then you just click on that tile and it zooms into your webpage. Its neat!

Why do you have to pay for parking as staff?! We pay 200 a year as students. I hate the parking people. They give out tickets no less than $75 bucks. Every time there is a game you have to move your car by 6 or get a ticket. They drive around constantly. Walk away for more than 15 mins and you will get a ticket. Parking at an expired meter is cheaper ($15).

If you appeal it, they say no. Their appeal process is TOTALLY random, we actually proved this scientifically through an experiment.

I think the students would be happy if their office burned to the ground. EVERY one hates the parking people. They are trying to make it illegal to park on campus at anytime, anywhere.

They actually go around at night recording license plates. If its there in the morning at lot 1, they tow your car. How nice. (This is because student residents were parking there).

 

[ranger]

So now IE7 does all the things Firefox does, and I don't need more space used up on a redundant program.

You're kidding, right? Theres more to FF than tabbed browsing.

 

[Cyrus]

What else does it do? -I don't use it. So I don't know all its features.

 

[Moonbear]

Why do you have to pay for parking as staff?! We pay 200 a year as students. I hate the parking people.

Every university charges faculty and staff to park, and usually they charge us more than they charge the students. Parking is pretty cheap here, so it's not such a big deal (some people started a big email war copying everyone when the rates increased by $2/month complaining how it was a 20% increase ...if they weren't being annoying by copying everyone, I would have replied to them and pointed out that I've paid as much as $600 per year for parking at some institutions, and they should be darn glad it costs so little here considering how little space the university has to use for parking lots). What really is bad here is that the secretaries and maintenance staff get better parking spots than faculty. I think it's a union issue (faculty don't have a union, and we'd rather keep it that way, but the staff that are unionized gripe over things like parking spots, so get them...I try about once a year to get a better spot, and it never works...if I move into a tenure track position I think I'll negotiate for a parking spot as part of my start-up package ). "Parking people" are pretty much the same everywhere. That's always the most unpleasant office to deal with. But, it's been nice with all the rain lately...they don't ticket in the rain, so I have been parking close to the building and they haven't caught me all month (if it's clear weather or might clear sometime during the day, I park where I'm supposed to)...I also don't park too close, and when I park, I pull right up to guard rails so they can't see my parking hang tag without climbing through mud puddles.

 

[Cyrus]

Another thing I hate is all these students riding around with their damn scooters. They go 30mph down the walkways at the mall and campus. My friend is like, if they can park those scooters infront of buildings, I am parking my motorcycle infront of buildings. So he just rides right up to the door of the building and parks it. What can the parking people do? Nothing. Its brilliant.

 

[DaveC426913]

Oh, and I forgot to mention my favorite website.

www.pandora.com

I didn't mind pandora but I much prefer http://music.yahoo.com/launchcast/default.asp" . Just pick a genre and then start refining your choices as you go. Same thing as Pandora but there's more control.

 

[Moonbear]

Another thing I hate is all these students riding around with their damn scooters. They go 30mph down the walkways at the mall and campus. My friend is like, if they can park those scooters infront of buildings, I am parking my motorcycle infront of buildings. So he just rides right up to the door of the building and parks it. What can the parking people do? Nothing. Its brilliant.

I haven't seen anyone with scooters around here, so that's not really an issue. I'm not sure what they do about motorcycles around here. I don't see many of them, but it's not like there's a place to put a hangtag, so they might get away with parking wherever they want.

 

[Cyrus]

No, motorcycles get a special sticker they have to put on their frame to park. Or they get a big fat ticket on their seat!

LOTS of students have these damn scooters all over the places. Its annoying. Its mostly the athletes.

 

[Moonbear]

No, motorcycles get a special sticker they have to put on their frame to park. Or they get a big fat ticket on their seat!

LOTS of students have these damn scooters all over the places. Its annoying. Its mostly the athletes.

Somehow, I suspect our parking office would find a way to make them pay or ticket them as a motorized vehicle. I'm surprised they haven't found a way to make bicyclists pay for parking yet.

 

[ranger]

What else does it do? -I don't use it. So I don't know all its features.

I was referring to the firefox add-ons; more specifically the extensions. Robphy has already mentioned some great ones. A few of my favorites are:
Remove it Permanently (a permanent alternative to Nuke Anything Enhanced)
Adblock
Video DownloadHelper
NoScript (probably my most favorite)

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browse/type:1

They also have some cool themes to spice up your fox (gee, that sounds cheesy).

 

[robphy]

I use Remove it Permanently as well.
...and I really like the MyPage bookmarklet http://mrclay.org/index.php/2006/04/23/mypage-bookmarklet/

I often save webpages as PDFs with PDFCreator... but I hate a lot of the junk that might come along with a page... and I like to keep only the things I want (and use as few pages). So, Nuke Anything, R.I.P. and MyPage are great. They can be used concurrently...which is good when one isn't able to remove something and another is.

TabMaxPlus and IE Tab (for viewing IE-only pages) are other favorites. Greasemonkey is interesting.

 

[rewebster]

I'm going to have to upgrade sooner or later----(still using WIN98SE)

 

[Averagesupernova]

I consider IE to be the redundant program. IE is just too vulnerable to viruses and such that I refuse to even open it. I used it once...to download Firefox. I'd use Outlook, but the morons who run our IT department make us use a really crappy email program and won't allow POP or IMAP access. But, their stupidity is a whole 'nother thread of rants (I was talking with some of the other faculty about how counterproductive most of their policies are...we have to change our passwords so often that none of us can remember them...walk into any of our offices and look for the passwords on a sticky note on the monitor...I only use that one to access the parking department anyway, and I keep telling the IT folks that I really will NOT object if someone hacks in and pays my parking fees for me They don't find this funny.)

I've found that the stupidity that appears to come from IT is often justified. Those of us on the outside simply don't know the rest of the story. We may be told something, but it it not necessarily the real reason for their rules. The password change is more likely to prevent outsiders from gaining access, not anyone in your office. IT probably couldn't care less if everyone in your office knows everyone else' password having it posted next to their computer (within reason). Here's something you can do to avoid EVER having to change a password ever again. Use the same one spelled backwards. A little forward or backward arrow on a post-it note attached to your monitor will remind you which way it is spelled. When IT requires a password change, simply change it to the other direction. Unless IT requires you never ever use the same password twice, this should work. I suppose you need to be a good backwards speller, but it hasn't been a problem for me. BTW, if I'm ever at someones desk with an arrow in either direction on a post-it note, I'm going to turn it up-side-down so it points in the other direction. LOL

 

[Moonbear]

I've found that the stupidity that appears to come from IT is often justified. Those of us on the outside simply don't know the rest of the story. We may be told something, but it it not necessarily the real reason for their rules. The password change is more likely to prevent outsiders from gaining access, not anyone in your office. IT probably couldn't care less if everyone in your office knows everyone else' password having it posted next to their computer (within reason).

Nope, it's supposed to keep anyone from accessing your account. You can't even access the sites you need it for from off campus, it's all on our intranet. And they make us change it every 60 days, plus have so many requirements, you can never make it something you can remember (it must have both capital and lowercase letters, must have letters and numbers, must have some non-alphanumeric character...)

Here's something you can do to avoid EVER having to change a password ever again. Use the same one spelled backwards. A little forward or backward arrow on a post-it note attached to your monitor will remind you which way it is spelled. When IT requires a password change, simply change it to the other direction. Unless IT requires you never ever use the same password twice, this should work.

They say you can't use the last FIVE passwords, but despite having used more than that, it still won't accept one of the first ones that I've used before. Of course, the alternative to sticky notes is to click the "Forgot Password" link and let IT reset it every 60 days.

Nope, I'm pretty sure our IT people have been locked in the dark too long and need to come out and see how the real world operates before making any new rules.

 

[Evo]

What else does it do? -I don't use it. So I don't know all its features.

I know that it makes some of my POP 3 e-mail invisible so it can't be read. Spawn has it and when I'm on her computer, I can't use my main e-mail account.

 

[Evo]

Nope, it's supposed to keep anyone from accessing your account. You can't even access the sites you need it for from off campus, it's all on our intranet. And they make us change it every 60 days, plus have so many requirements, you can never make it something you can remember (it must have both capital and lowercase letters, must have letters and numbers, must have some non-alphanumeric character...)

Same at my company, plus they change every 30 days, can't be resused within a 12 month period, and once you get into a system's main page, you need additional passwords to look at different pages within that system. It has gotten so ridiculous that we've been given password cheat sheets to list the 30+ passwords we need so we can keep them next to our computers. Well, there goes security!

 

[Moonbear]

Same at my company, plus they change every 30 days, can't be resused within a 12 month period, and once you get into a system's main page, you need additional passwords to look at different pages within that system. It has gotten so ridiculous that we've been given password cheat sheets to list the 30+ passwords we need so we can keep them next to our computers. Well, there goes security!

The most hilarious, though annoying, is they JUST blocked allowing remote desktop access from off campus (I didn't know this was even possible before, so never tried, but someone else was using it regularly so he could work from home). The reason its hilarious is they blocked it now because they only just figured out that it hasn't been blocked since 2005 when there was some security vulnerability that restricting that access was needed to prevent someone taking advantage of that vulnerability. That vulnerability was patched the same year, obviously nothing has happened in the entire time they didn't even know remote access was still available, but now, 2 years after the issue is moot, someone found the rule in the books that it's supposed to be blocked and blocked it.

 

[Kurdt]

IE7 pro has tried to redress the balance between firefox and IE7. Firefox is still probably ahead of the game though. I use IE7 for the same reason as Cyrus. I'm terribly fussy about the uniformity of my PC.

I'm also constantly amazed at the leaps and bounds PC's are making nowadays. The same for all gadgets really, take for example the PS3. What a piece of technology :!).

 

[Cyrus]

I was referring to the firefox add-ons; more specifically the extensions. Robphy has already mentioned some great ones. A few of my favorites are:
Remove it Permanently (a permanent alternative to Nuke Anything Enhanced)
Adblock
Video DownloadHelper
NoScript (probably my most favorite)

https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/browse/type:1

They also have some cool themes to spice up your fox (gee, that sounds cheesy).

What does this 'nuke anything enhanced' program do?

 

[robphy]

http://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/addon/951

"Allow hiding of almost anything via context menu 'Remove Object'.

Allow hiding of almost anything via context menu 'Remove Object' or 'Remove Selection' with possibility of multiple undo of 'Remove Object'. You can also make a selection and chose "Remove everything else" to clear the page and only leave the selected text.

Once you decide what you want to Remove, Right click on it or select it, then select "Remove this Object" from the menu.

The effect of this extension is temporary, which is useful before printing a page, you can use another extension, 'Remove It Permanently' if you want your removed objects to be remembered."

part of the enhanced part is that you can undo your last remove (in case it was too much)

I use this with R.I.P. which will highlight the object for permanent-removal with R.I.P. or temporarily with Nuke Anything Enhanced

 

[-Job-]

I've found that the stupidity that appears to come from IT is often justified. Those of us on the outside simply don't know the rest of the story. We may be told something, but it it not necessarily the real reason for their rules. The password change is more likely to prevent outsiders from gaining access, not anyone in your office. IT probably couldn't care less if everyone in your office knows everyone else' password having it posted next to their computer (within reason). Here's something you can do to avoid EVER having to change a password ever again. Use the same one spelled backwards. A little forward or backward arrow on a post-it note attached to your monitor will remind you which way it is spelled. When IT requires a password change, simply change it to the other direction. Unless IT requires you never ever use the same password twice, this should work. I suppose you need to be a good backwards speller, but it hasn't been a problem for me. BTW, if I'm ever at someones desk with an arrow in either direction on a post-it note, I'm going to turn it up-side-down so it points in the other direction. LOL

The account you login to your machine with is typically used as your identity in your workplace's intranet for example. Allowing someone else access to that identity can mean that it may be possible for them to gain access to some of your personal information, or to some restricted systems whose access the company is required (by regulation) to restrict and monitor (especially in the financial field).

 

[-Job-]

The most hilarious, though annoying, is they JUST blocked allowing remote desktop access from off campus (I didn't know this was even possible before, so never tried, but someone else was using it regularly so he could work from home). The reason its hilarious is they blocked it now because they only just figured out that it hasn't been blocked since 2005 when there was some security vulnerability that restricting that access was needed to prevent someone taking advantage of that vulnerability. That vulnerability was patched the same year, obviously nothing has happened in the entire time they didn't even know remote access was still available, but now, 2 years after the issue is moot, someone found the rule in the books that it's supposed to be blocked and blocked it.

They probably have a VPN connection that you can dial to get into their network. The proper way is to first dial a VPN and then do remote desktop, i would ask them if they have a VPN client.

 

[FredGarvin]

I also like FF's search engines tool bar. I have EBay, Wiki, Amazon, Merriam-Webster and a few others. Just type in the word and you automatically get sent to the site and the search is complete in one command. Plus more are being made every day. I like that FF allows people to write things for it third party.

EDIT: I just added a window split add on. It is really cool. Now I have multiple browser windows inside my main FF window. Each one can have tabs too. The only limit is memory. Pretty cool.

 

[caslav.ilic]

I must admit. I am slowly becoming a tech junkie. [...] It seems like computers are making another big jump in terms of user interface. Everything is now so clean, and user friendly. I am really impressed by what's being put out now. Very high quality.

And what do you take into comparison, to say that you're impressed and judge it to be of very high quality?

Without reaching for broader audience, I, for one, am appalled at how the predominant concepts of end-user computing today affect engineering spirit, working against efficient, creative, and enjoyable professional utilization of computing resources.

Regardless, "junky" is probably a better term than you would have expected ;) Could also try out Mac, apparently that one's a regular soma.

--
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)

 

[Mk]

That would be great if I could convince the PC to talk to the Mac network. The Macs have no problem, but the PC gets stubborn.

I think that's the last bastion of the argument of PCs being more compatible. Sad, really.

 

[Cyrus]

And what do you take into comparison, to say that you're impressed and judge it to be of very high quality?

Without reaching for broader audience, I, for one, am appalled at how the predominant concepts of end-user computing today affect engineering spirit, working against efficient, creative, and enjoyable professional utilization of computing resources.

Regardless, "junky" is probably a better term than you would have expected ;) Could also try out Mac, apparently that one's a regular soma.

--
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)

Eh? Sorry I don't like green screen MSDOS that went away in the 80's. I don't really know what you mean by that.

 

[caslav.ilic]

Eh? Sorry I don't like green screen MSDOS that went away in the 80's. I don't really know what you mean by that.

My question was: since you seem rather satisfied with the way things are now, and gave some examples of your daily use-cases too, what do you compare it with to draw conclusion of a "jet age"? So your answer is to the MS-DOS screens that went away in the 80's.

The "screens of the eighties", that is to say the paradigm that this phrase usually stands for as a metaphor, did not actually went away. It is just indiscernible on contemporary Windows and Mac desktops, as used by today's typical fresh outta school engineers. However, rest assured that the real jet age, as it has progressed, and as it exists today, is directly reliant on the "screens of the eighties" to make any further advancements.

A (recent) example that made me personally painfully aware of the wrong direction the engineers are educated for computer use, was very simple: I was involved in a ~9 man-month effort, which, in my opinion should have been a mere 1 (one) man-month job. The software choices that were available all lacked where it counted, with glitzy graphical interfaces, but little and woefully underdocumented "screens of the eighties" stuff needed to cut the effort 10-fold; the people involved (senior undergrads, grads, MechEng/CompEng mixture) were finding the situation an expected drudgery (indeed, at least a user-friendly one!), not making much thought of the huge inefficiency of the process, never having being exposed to "screens of the eighties" thinking. So to say, the software and people were matched appropriately, the usuall vicious circle.

It was really I who was an aberration in that chain :) Certainly for the better part, rather than in the "jet age" software, the efficient 1 man-month effort would have been spent in the "screens of the eighties", i.e. in a capable shell, text editor, and file browser, making good use of interpreter- and compiler-like tools. It would have been creative, near zero drudgery, and thus quite enjoyable. However, I had no "mandate" to spend time on making this happen, and anyway had little wish to wrestle with support drones of the "jet age" software, pulling out the details they left out of the manuals, and dealing with their ill-designed "screens of the eighties" features (necessarily such, having little customer demand...)

And I won't even start griping about spreedsheet :) I would just reiterate Dijkstra's famous statement with Cobol substituted for Exell...

--
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)

 

[Cyrus]

What were you trying to do that was so difficult? Excel is pretty easy to use... You can use it with any standard VB editor.

 

[Integral]

I haven't seen anyone with scooters around here, so that's not really an issue. I'm not sure what they do about motorcycles around here. I don't see many of them, but it's not like there's a place to put a hangtag, so they might get away with parking wherever they want.

I am feeling pretty luckv after reading that. They just started a new policy at my work, we just went to a 1 yr password, up from 90 days. Of course we need 12 characters, Upper case, lower case, numeric, special characters, and does not appear in a dictionary.

The one I hate is SAP, not sure how long the password lasts but when the time comes you are given no warning. You log on and get a message, change your password, NOW. I need some time to come up with a good password, at least the corporate site has a count down telling how many days are left till you have to change. I am currently locked out of sap, couldn't remember my password, It takes a phone call to India to get it reset, nothing against Indians, but i speak American, not heavily accented British. (Please, no offence intended)

 

[chroot]

Now if I could only figure out a way to get Macs and PCs to synchronize files so they all have the most current version of whatever I'm working on, I'd be thrilled...but not counting on that one.

The best ways to manage versioning in a heterogenous environment are systems like CVS and SVN. Look into SmartCVS and SmartSVN as front-ends. You basically can commit an updated file from anywhere, and then have those changes automatically migrated to other computers before you begin working on the files there. They were written with program source-code in mind, but they will work with any kind of files. The downside? You need to run a server that will be visible to every computer involved.

You can also spend $10/month to get some cheap webspace, accessible from anywhere by FTP. Then you can use any of a number of different programs to easily move files back and forth from that shared space.

Even more simply, you might be able to get by with a small USB flash drive. They should work just fine for moving files back and forth between computers with different operating systems. Just make sure you keep frequent backup copies on more reliable storage.

If you have an iPod, you might even want to consider just using part of its capacity as an external, portable hard drive.

- Warren

 

[caslav.ilic]

What were you trying to do that was so difficult? Excel is pretty easy to use... [...]

"Difficult" and "easy" are too fuzzy terms ;)

Engineering R&D.

You come up with an idea, which may or may not work. You have to examine it, which will take some effort. The amount of effort depends on the applicable tools that you have mastered. In a given time frame, with one set of tools you'll be able to check out more ideas, with another set less.

Furthermore, the tools will have feedback on your ideas. You will semi-unconsciously cast aside ideas that would require too much effort to examine. Any repetition during the effort increases this negative feedback. And the bigger the effort needed, the more people involved, the more susceptible to Brooks' law.

Thus, engineers need to choose their tools not by how easy to use they appear to be at first sight, but by how they can facilitate throughput of ideas through the examination chain, which further boosts the breath and depth of ideas.

Regarding computing tools, the notion of "user-friendliness" as it is widely taken for granted today, is exceedingly poor at conducting the flow of engineering ideas. Excel (now I spelled it properly :) is the flagship of poorness; spreadsheets may be appropriate for something, but engineering computation it ain't.

Few simple test questions, for any senior engineering student: Can you wrap a loop around the computation that you have just built up, and a loop around it, and a loop around it, ad infinitum? Do you have an idea why you may need that capability? Can you make use of a dozen machines idling away on the campus during the off hours? Do you have an idea what you would use them for? If answer to any of these questions is no, then you are being held back by poor tools.

--
Chusslove Illich (Часлав Илић)

 

[Cyrus]

Well, that's why you bring out the big guns and run matlab.

Excel is good for doing simple things. I would use excel for presentations, not matlab, because the graphs are pure eye candy! There are uses for it.

Another big gun is EES, Engineering Equation Sovler.