Fermion Contraction: Peskin & Shroeder Pg 63

  • Context: Graduate 
  • Thread starter Thread starter jostpuur
  • Start date Start date
  • Tags Tags
    Contraction Fermion
Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the notation and interpretation of fermion contractions as presented in Peskin & Schroeder, specifically on page 63. Participants explore the implications of the order of spinors in contractions, the nature of the propagator as a matrix, and the correct representation of these concepts in LaTeX.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the notation of fermion contractions, particularly the placement of the spinor with a bar and its implications for causality.
  • Another participant clarifies that the spinor with a bar represents the creation of a particle, while the one without it represents annihilation, suggesting that interchanging them requires careful consideration of the coordinates to maintain causality.
  • Some participants argue that there is no issue with the order of spinors as long as they are part of an outer product, asserting that both configurations are permissible and that the propagator can be interpreted as a matrix in spinor space.
  • One participant questions the notation used by Peskin & Schroeder, suggesting that it may lead to confusion regarding the nature of the quantities involved in different time orderings.
  • A later reply notes that a specific equation clarifies the relationship between the contractions of spinors with and without bars, resolving some of the initial confusion.
  • Participants discuss the proper LaTeX representation for writing contractions, with some expressing difficulties in using certain commands on the forum.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the implications of the order of spinors in contractions, with some asserting that it is permissible while others raise concerns about potential confusion. The discussion does not reach a consensus on the notation and its interpretation.

Contextual Notes

There are unresolved questions regarding the notation used in the original text and how it may affect the interpretation of physical quantities. Some assumptions about the nature of the propagator and the conditions under which the spinors are contracted remain implicit.

jostpuur
Messages
2,112
Reaction score
19
Directly from the Peskin & Shroeder, page 63:

<br /> S_F(x-y) = \int\frac{d^4p}{(2\pi)^4}\frac{i(\displaystyle{\not}p + m)}{p^2-m^2+i\epsilon} e^{-ip\cdot(x-y)}<br />

I'm slightly confused with the notation with the contractions. Things like \overline{\psi}(x)\psi(y) and \psi(x)\overline{\psi}(y) get written carelessly although it doesn't really make sense to put psi bar on the right. On the other hand the propagator itself is a 4x4 matrix, so when I try to make sense out of this, this is the only conclusion I've succeeded to come up with: The contraction should be carried out always with fixed indexes of the fermion operators, and then we choose the corresponding element from the matrix in the propagator. That means, that when a,b\in\{1,2,3,4\}, then

<br /> \textrm{contraction}(\psi_a(x),\overline{\psi}_b(y)) = (S_F(x-y))_{ab} = \int\frac{d^4p}{(2\pi)^4}\frac{i(\displaystyle{\not}p +m)_{ab}}{p^2-m^2+i\epsilon} e^{-ip\cdot(x-y)}<br />

Is this correct?

If it was correct, what happens when the psi bar is on the left? What is

<br /> \textrm{contraction}(\overline{\psi}_a(x),\psi_b(y)) ?<br />
 
Last edited:
Physics news on Phys.org
ah the point here is that the spinor with the bar represents the creation of a particle at the point coordinate of the spinor, while the spinor without bar stands for annihilation.
So if you interchange the bar you got to make sure the the zero-component of the coordinate of the spinor is changed as well to not violate causality :)
Hope i could help you
 
There's nothing wrong with the order of spinors, as long as you are taking an "outer product", that is - the spinor indices are not contracted with each other. Then both products are allowed, and your interpretation of the propogator as a matrix in "spinor" space is correct.
 
blechman said:
There's nothing wrong with the order of spinors, as long as you are taking an "outer product", that is - the spinor indices are not contracted with each other. Then both products are allowed, and your interpretation of the propogator as a matrix in "spinor" space is correct.

Peskin & Shroeder write things like this

<br /> \left\{\begin{array}{l}<br /> \langle 0|\psi(x)\overline{\psi}(y)|0\rangle\quad\quad\quad \textrm{for}\;x_0&gt;y_0\\<br /> -\langle 0|\overline{\psi}(y)\psi(x)|0\rangle\quad\quad\quad\textrm{for}\;x_0&lt;y_0\\<br /> \end{array}\right.<br />

I don't think that quantity is complex number for x_0&lt;y_0 and 4x4 matrix for x_0&gt;y_0. That is just confusing notation for something else.

But my problem seems to be solved. When going through the lecture notes, I encountered (probably not for the first time) an equation, that said clearly that

<br /> \textrm{contraction}(\psi_a(x_1),\overline{\psi}_b(x_2)) = -\textrm{contraction}(\overline{\psi}_b(x_2), \psi_a(x_1)).<br />

This removed the need for guessing quite well.

Talking about contractions. How should they be written with latex?
 
i guess it´s \contraction{A}{B}

but doesn´t work on the forum i guess it needs ams package :(

<br /> \contraction{B}{C}<br /> <br />
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 24 ·
Replies
24
Views
3K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K