Could someone me get my mind around this paradox

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    Mind Paradox
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a perceived paradox involving two electrons moving parallel to each other at the same speed. Participants explore the implications of different reference frames on the forces experienced by the electrons, specifically focusing on the electric and magnetic fields produced by the electrons and how these fields affect their interactions.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions their reasoning regarding the forces between two parallel electrons, noting that an observer in a stationary frame sees them being attracted due to their magnetic fields, while an observer moving with the electrons sees them as stationary and believes they should repel each other due to electric fields.
  • Another participant suggests that the electric field of a moving charged particle is not spherically symmetric and provides links to resources that explain the electric field's behavior, indicating that the observer sees the electrons repelling each other, with the magnetic force also contributing to the interaction.
  • A third participant reiterates the importance of considering time dilation or using invariant 4-forces to reconcile the observations across different frames of reference.
  • A fourth participant asserts that the electric force will always predominate over the magnetic force in all frames, clarifying that the forces only equalize at the speed of light, which is unattainable for electrons.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of the forces between the electrons in various reference frames, indicating that there is no consensus on the resolution of the paradox. The discussion remains unresolved with multiple competing interpretations of the situation.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference concepts such as time dilation and the behavior of electric fields in motion, but the discussion does not resolve the underlying assumptions or mathematical details necessary for a complete understanding.

aceofspades
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Okay... I am pretty sure this isn't a paradox, so my
reasoning must be flawed somewhere.

Could someone tell me where I am going wrong?

Consider 2 electrons, traveling in straight lines,
parallel to each other, at the same speed v, in
the same direction. An observer in a stationary
reference frame will see them each produce a magnetic
field, and so will notice them being drawn towards
each other.
(Analagous with the force between 2 parallel current carrying wires)

Now consider the case where the observer moves
with the electrons, within their frame of reference.
To him, the electrons will appear stationary, and so
he will only see an electric field between them.
If this was the case, he should see the electrons being
repelled from each other.

Obviously the physics must be the same, irrespective of the
frame of reference, so where have I gone wrong?

Thanks a lot! :-p
 
Last edited:
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Take a look at

http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~rfield/PHY2061/images/relativity_15.pdf

and

http://www.phys.ufl.edu/~rfield/PHY2061/images/relativity_14.pdf

The electric field of a moving charged particle is definitely not spherically symmetric, it's given by the formula in the second URL above. (It turns out that the E-field of a moving charge does always point radially outwards, only the scale factor changes with angle).

Thus the observer watching the static particles sees them repelling each other. The observer watching the moving particles sees them repelling each other more strongly than the first observer, but also sees an additional attractive magnetic force that first observer does not see.

I believe one also has to take time dilation into account as well (or use 4-forces, which are invariant for all observers) to make the equations balance.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
pervect said:
I believe one also has to take time dilation into account as well (or use 4-forces, which are invariant for all observers) to make the equations balance.
Indeed one does. The discussion of this problem appears in most undergraduate level books on E&M (i.e. Griffiths or Jackson)
 
aceofspades - The charged particles will repell one another in all frames - the electric force and the magnetic force are only equal when the two electrons are moving at velocity c relative to the frame in which they are observed - but since they cannot move at the velocity of light, the electric force will always predominate.
 

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