242 Derivatives of Logarithmic Functions of y=xlnx-x

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around finding the derivatives of logarithmic functions, specifically focusing on the function \( y = x \ln{x} - x \) and a related expression involving two variables, \( y = \ln{\sqrt{\frac{a^2 - z^2}{a^2 + z^2}} \). Participants explore the differentiation of these functions and the implications of variable dependencies.

Discussion Character

  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • One participant calculates the derivative of \( y = x \ln{x} - x \) using the product rule, arriving at \( y' = \ln{x} \) and notes the absence of a book answer.
  • Another participant presents the same function in a factored form \( y = x(\ln{x} - 1) \) and derives \( y' = \ln{x} \), suggesting agreement with the previous calculation.
  • A participant introduces a different function \( y = \ln{\sqrt{\frac{a^2 - z^2}{a^2 + z^2}} \) and expresses uncertainty about the derivative due to the presence of two variables.
  • Further exploration of the second function leads to a derived expression for \( \frac{dy}{dz} \), with participants discussing the implications of treating \( a \) as a constant and \( z \) as the variable.
  • Another participant suggests that the calculator's output of \( y' = 0 \) at \( z = 0 \) may be due to it treating both \( a \) and \( z \) as constants, leading to a constant function.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the derivative of the first function \( y = x \ln{x} - x \) being \( \ln{x} \). However, the discussion regarding the second function remains unresolved, with differing interpretations of variable dependencies and derivative calculations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes assumptions about variable dependencies, particularly in the second function, where the roles of \( a \) and \( z \) are not fully clarified. There is also uncertainty regarding the calculator's interpretation of the function.

karush
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$\tiny{from\, steward\, v8\, 6.4.2}$
find y'
$\quad y= x\ln{x}-x$
so
$\quad y'=(x\ln{x})'-(x)'$
product rule
$\quad (x\ln{x})'=x\cdot\dfrac{1}{x}+\ln{x}\cdot(1)=1+\ln{x}$
and
$\quad (-x)'=-1$
finally
$\quad \ln{x}+1-1=\ln{x}$

well this is an even # with no book answer but I think it is ok
typos maybe
also guess we could of factored out the x but not sure if this would help
 
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$y = x(\ln{x}-1)$

$y' = x \cdot \dfrac{1}{x} + (\ln{x} - 1) \cdot 1 = 1 + \ln{x} - 1 = \ln{x}$

same same
 
thot I would slip in another one under the table ... :confused:

$y=\ln{\sqrt{\dfrac{a^2-z^2}{a^2+z^2}}}$ok calculator says y'=0 but not sure what you do with the 2 variables
 
Last edited:
karush said:
thot I would slip in another one under the table ... :confused:

$y=\ln{\sqrt{\dfrac{a^2-z^2}{a^2+z^2}}}$ok calculator says y'=0 but not sure what you do with the 2 variables

I'm assuming $y$ is a function of $z$ and $a$ is a constant.

using properties of logs ...

$y = \dfrac{1}{2}\left[\ln(a^2-z^2) - \ln(a^2+z^2)\right]$

$\dfrac{dy}{dz} = \dfrac{1}{2}\left(\dfrac{-2z}{a^2-z^2} - \dfrac{2z}{a^2+z^2}\right)$

$\dfrac{dy}{dz} = \dfrac{-z}{a^2-z^2} - \dfrac{z}{a^2+z^2}$

common denominator & combine fractions ...

$\dfrac{dy}{dz} = \dfrac{2a^2 z}{z^4-a^4}$
 
So y'= 0 at z= 0. Another possibility is that your calculator is assuming that the independent variable is always x and treated both a and z as constants so the whole function is treated as a constant so the derivative is 0.
 

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