8.9 earthquake in Japan: tsunami warnings

[DevilsAvocado]

Picture shows the loss of upper containment, the metal part of the building that covers the inner concrete containment.
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20110312/capt.e9f639e37b9c44d1840d0a5b45425856-e9f639e37b9c44d1840d0a5b45425856-0.jpg?x=400&y=302&q=85&sig=U_qu_ZFZI2cVI7tak6ppOw--

Does this have any effect on the overall security?

Let's not bring cold fusion into this.

It was a joke.

 

[rhody]

Astro,

See the PS edit I just added from my previous post, site map of reactor plant 1 circa 1975, I believe.

Rhody...

 

[Astronuc]

Astro,

See the PS edit I just added from my previous post, site map of reactor plant 1 circa 1975, I believe.

Rhody...

From the overhead picture, I believe the orientation of the units is from south to north (left to right) is 4, 3, 2, 1 and 5, 6. The picture would be made while unit 6 was being built. Unit 1 is the smallest and oldest of the units. I believe units 1 and 2 share a turbine building, and units 3 and 4 also share a turbine building.

From the hill west of the plant.
http://d.yimg.com/a/p/ap/20110312/capt.5e0e36d5e024444395b8b3428aa754be-5e0e36d5e024444395b8b3428aa754be-0.jpg?x=400&y=258&q=85&sig=E5v.EGczNc6lhMSjmMdP3Q--

Leftmost would be unit 1.

 

[Lacy33]

I don't see this being the same as Chernobyl, but there is a concern that if the cladding oxidizes/corrodes that fisson products would be released into the coolant. Fissions gases, radioisotopes of Xe and Kr, and volatiles like I, could be released into the atmosphere, but one would expect, the Iodine would be trapped in filters. Other soluble nuclides would be in the cooling water.

Japan has a large population of professionals, and the USNRC and other organizations are ready to step in and provide support and assistance.

There will be repercussions due to the poor performance, really failure, of the safety systems. I imagine that unit 1 at FK Daiichi will be permanently shutdown, especially if they use seawater directly in the core.

The industry will do yet another reassessment of the preparedness for such an event.

I would certainly go if asked. I would like to be there in person to see what is actually going on, but I'd be in the way. They need personnel with direct plant operating experience with that particular plant design.

It would be interesting to go if one had the qualifications. But like any professional, you know that resources in the area are limited and will only hold essential personnel.
One can only hope they build that plant on property high enough and out of the way of flooding.
I was wondering, considering the limited resources, what would happen if they used sea water to cool the core.
You answered that. Thank you.
My two remaining questions are, can the plant be near completely shaken down and containment structures release dangerous components? And what would happen if the plant were to be totally submerged? Or both?
G-d forbid.

Also did Ben Vereen get his start in show business on the Lawrence Welk Show? JK

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Fukushima before and after:

[URL]http://www.chernobylee.com/blog/images/201103/Fukushima_Before_After.jpg.pagespeed.ce.35oUNAkFGW.jpg[/URL]

Still photos from NHK World News broadcasts

 

[Astronuc]

The Mark I containment is designed to use water available in containment, in the torus for emergency cooling. As water is boiled off, it has to be supplemented from the outside. That continues until the core is cooled off.

Ideally, the fission products and unused fuel remain contained in containment. However, the fission gases, Xe and Kr will leak out with the steam that is released to keep pressure down. Other fission products like I and Cs will dissolve in the water, and if that water leaks out of containment, then the fission products will escape in the water. The water could then be diluted in the sea. While unfortunate, it's not the end of the world.

They will try to get sufficient cooling water into containment to minimize damage to the core and pressure vessel. They might flood containment, but not submerge the plant.

Beyond that, it is difficult to give a reasonable or informed explanation because I/we don't know the specific details regarding that status of the core, fuel, containment, or the specifics of how they are cooling the reactor. I don't see any value in speculation.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tX1B_ir5StQ

 

[DevilsAvocado]

2011 03 12 Breaking News, Fears of nuclear meltdown after plant blast in Japan, Fukushima.

Cham Dallas, Professor, University of Georgia

 

[Lacy33]

They will try to get sufficient cooling water into containment to minimize damage to the core and pressure vessel. They might flood containment, but not submerge the plant.

Beyond that, it is difficult to give a reasonable or informed explanation because I/we don't know the specific details regarding that status of the core, fuel, containment, or the specifics of how they are cooling the reactor. I don't see any value in speculation.

I understand your not wanting to speculate. This is not a news station and you have that luxury.
I did not mean that anyone should submerge the plant, I meant what if it was hit with a wall of water hence submerged and can that plant be shaken down and and if so what mag earthquake would it take to shake down that or any new plant? Thank you.

 

[Astronuc]

I understand your not wanting to speculate. This is not a news station and you have that luxury.
I did not mean that anyone should submerge the plant, I meant what if it was hit with a wall of water hence submerged and can that plant be shaken down and and if so what mag earthquake would it take to shake down that or any new plant? Thank you.

As far as we know, the plant was not damaged, and the other units (2-6) at the site are intact.

The inner containment (dry well) of unit 1 seems to be mostly intact. The question is what is going on inside the pressure vessel which holds the core. The pressure vessel is enclosed in the dry well.

If there was a hydrogen explosion, then it had to come from hydrogen generated in the core, and that indicates damage (significant oxidation/corrosion) to the Zr alloys (fuel cladding and channels) of the fuel. That could be considered a partial meltdown similar to TMI-2 core damage accident. Then one has to determine how much of the core is damaged.

Also in the core are the control rods which are inserted to keep the reactor shutdown, or subcritical. The control rods are made of stainless steel and contain boron (in form of boron carbide) and possibly hafnium. Boron (B-10) and hafnium are neutron absorbers and the absorb neutrons instead of the fuel. The plant personnel can also add borated water to the core in order to ensure that the damaged core remains subcritical. If there is a partial core meltdown, then that could also displace water such that criticality is not necessarily acheiveable.

At the moment, we have to wait for accurate and reliable information regarding the status of the core and cooling program.

 

[rhody]

2011 03 12 Breaking News, Fears of nuclear meltdown after plant blast in Japan, Fukushima.

Cham Dallas, Professor, University of Georgia

Devils,

Nothing personal here, but that CNN news account bugs me in so many ways I won't even begin to list them all, and nothing against you for posting it. I personally don't care for fear mongering without facts to substantiate.

Rhody...

 

[Lacy33]

Thank you Astro, This has been very interesting and thank you for explaining this to us. We will just continue to watch with you, but now we understand what is going on. ... More than we did.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

Devils,

Nothing personal here, but that CNN news account bugs me in so many ways I won't even begin to list them all, and nothing against you for posting it. I personally don't care for fear mongering without facts to substantiate.

Rhody...

Did you watch the video??

 

[Lacy33]

Did you watch the video??

DA, I want to share some of my yummy medicine with you.
Then we can both be more calm. Aww, :!)

 

[nismaratwork]

Did you watch the video??

I did DA... I saw a hydrogen explosion, and then some dirty steam and smoke. You have to understand, if the fuel had become exposed we'd be talking Grays and Sieverts (or REMs it seems), not milliREMS. This isn't a good thing, because by some account (not verified) the concrete casing around the #2 reactor was compromised, but it doesn't sound like the... oh hell, what's the word, not sleeve... the inner layer is still intact.

The government is handing out Iodine tabs, and has established a reasonable exclusion zone. This isn't good, but I'm not seeing anything to be hysterical about. Lacy's right... deep breaths man, remember, even if this WERE Chernobyl 2.0, what could you do? Keep your mind clear, your emotions tamped down, and focus on the events as they evolve.

Maybe cesium is leaking, maybe not... we're not going to know much of this right now, unless you're Astronuc or have friend with NEST. We can only hope that Astronuc is wrong, and we're not seing oxidization of the fuel cladding, although I wouldn't bet against him for anything. If this is a TMI-2... it's not going to change because of our fear... even if you're personally at risk.

This is the time to be calm, even detatched, and rely on the most reliable info... nothing else.

 

[rhody]

Did you watch the video??

Yes, and around 2:45 where the professor says it reach levels approaching three mile island but not Chernobyl may be a fair statement (I am no expert, we need Astro for that), and he didn't address a complete meltdown issue, skirted the question. I guess what bugged me the most was after thinking about it for awhile was, why wasn't CNN putting experts on the air to explain what could be done to contain the heat. Like progress on getting power restored to the cooling systems would have been more appropriate IMHO. This story makes for great ratings, however, this is not the time to try and capitalize on the situation. I broke a promise to myself about stating political views on this forum, which I intend not to repeat.

Rhody...

 

[nismaratwork]

As far as we know, the plant was not damaged, and the other units (2-6) at the site are intact.

The inner containment (dry well) of unit 1 seems to be mostly intact. The question is what is going on inside the pressure vessel which holds the core. The pressure vessel is enclosed in the dry well.

If there was a hydrogen explosion, then it had to come from hydrogen generated in the core, and that indicates damage (significant oxidation/corrosion) to the Zr alloys (fuel cladding and channels) of the fuel. That could be considered a partial meltdown similar to TMI-2 core damage accident. Then one has to determine how much of the core is damaged.

Also in the core are the control rods which are inserted to keep the reactor shutdown, or subcritical. The control rods are made of stainless steel and contain boron (in form of boron carbide) and possibly hafnium. Boron (B-10) and hafnium are neutron absorbers and the absorb neutrons instead of the fuel. The plant personnel can also add borated water to the core in order to ensure that the damaged core remains subcritical. If there is a partial core meltdown, then that could also displace water such that criticality is not necessarily acheiveable.

At the moment, we have to wait for accurate and reliable information regarding the status of the core and cooling program.

Is the Borated water (sounds like something Borek might make before bed ) is the neutron poison they flood the reactor with?

I have to say, given how unstable Fukishima is seismically, I'm a bit surprised that they didn't switch to a newer generation reactor. I know you're not convinced that PBR would avoid this, but surely being able to 'scatter' the bed would help in dissipating heat, and slowing the reaction even more than control rods or neutron poisons.

 

[DevilsAvocado]

DA, I want to share some of my yummy medicine with you.
Then we can both be more calm. Aww, :!)

Sure, I eat anything if this nightmare will just end!

()

 

[nismaratwork]

Sure, I eat anything if this nightmare will just end!

()

*prepares blowdart with xanax and haldol*

You'll feel better in a moment... or you'll drool to death... one or the other! *ffffwwwt*

 

[DevilsAvocado]

... I broke a promise to myself about stating political views on this forum, which I intend not to repeat.

Rhody...

Niema problema compañero.

... the funny thing though is that some of Cham Dallas very first words are "... [it] will not be dangerous ... however you cannot overestimate the fear factor ..." and the rest of the video goes along the same lines.


(sorry I just had to do it... )

 

[DevilsAvocado]

I did DA... I saw a hydrogen explosion, and then some dirty steam and smoke.

No you did not. You watched the wrong video:


What’s wrong with you guys? One doesn’t check and the other is talking about the wrong stuff?? Should we all get some of Lacy’s snacks!?

 

[DevilsAvocado]

*prepares blowdart with xanax and haldol*

You'll feel better in a moment... or you'll drool to death... one or the other! *ffffwwwt*

Nirvana ...

 

[nismaratwork]

No you did not. You watched the wrong video:


What’s wrong with you guys? One doesn’t check and the other is talking about the wrong stuff?? Should we all get some of Lacy’s snacks!?

Meh, I actually watched that live... I give a lot of credit to Dallas for not fearmongering, and resisting the anchors later attempts to goad.

I did assume however, and thus I am revealed, caught, my hands red with my sin.

And yes... I'll take a snack please!

 

[DevilsAvocado]

 

[nismaratwork]

We're apparently sending NEST into Fukishima.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is great concern that the quake, tsunami, and reactor incidents will throw Japan's economy into another tailspin - just as the economy was starting to recover.

 

[Lacy33]

*prepares blowdart with xanax and haldol*

You'll feel better in a moment... or you'll drool to death... one or the other! *ffffwwwt*

Dr. nismaratwork! With all do respect to your years of education and experience, I think you just over medicated your buddy there. Haldol? He is just an excited, nervous poster. Not a violent, raging maniac.

But if you want to keep your buddy off the board while he sleeps or sits staring at the wall and you become "Master of The Lower Threads" I think that cocktail should do him in. Good work.
Btw, I have a little something for you. Mwahahaha!~

 

[Proton Soup]

Dr. nismaratwork! With all do respect to your years of education and experience, I think you just over medicated your buddy there. Haldol? He is just an excited, nervous poster. Not a violent, raging maniac.

But if you want to keep your buddy off the board while he sleeps or sits staring at the wall and you become "Master of The Lower Threads" I think that cocktail should do him in. Good work.
Btw, I have a little something for you. Mwahahaha!~

looking up some old Thorazine ads will give you a better appreciation of the doctor-patient relationship from the physician's POV. basically, patients should be seen and not heard.

 

[Math Is Hard]

Footage from Santa Cruz:



7B-ACV3pPqc[/youtube] You can te...rom the narration. "Holy crap, dude! No way!"

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Footage from Santa Cruz:



7B-ACV3pPqc[/youtube] You can te... haha sounds like a robot or william shatner