A car on a hill - power of motor problem

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around a physics problem involving a car traveling up a slope with constant acceleration. Participants explore the calculation of motor power over time, considering various forces acting on the car, including friction and air resistance, while also addressing the relationship between velocity and gravitational potential energy (GPE).

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a problem statement involving a car's acceleration, mass, slope angle, and forces acting on it, seeking to find the expression for motor power over time.
  • Another participant questions the friction coefficient, suggesting it should refer to rolling resistance rather than static friction, which they deem irrelevant.
  • Concerns are raised about the use of cosine terms in the calculations, specifically regarding the angles between forces and velocities.
  • Participants discuss the implications of maximum velocity on kinetic energy and the need to clarify terms related to energy changes.
  • There is a debate about the correct interpretation of height gain while moving up the slope, with some suggesting it should be represented as a component of velocity.
  • The relationship between power and gravitational potential energy is explored, with participants attempting to clarify the correct forces and velocities to use in calculations.
  • One participant expresses uncertainty about the gravitational potential energy equation, seeking confirmation on its form.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the correct application of forces and angles in the problem. While some points are clarified, there remains uncertainty and no consensus on the overall approach to solving the problem.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include potential misunderstandings regarding the definitions of forces, the application of trigonometric functions, and the assumptions made about the system's dynamics.

LippyKa16
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Homework Statement


A car is traveling up a slope. Given that a(t) is constant at 1m/s^2, find the expression of motor power in time. Assuming that the maximum power of the car is 215kW, for how long can the car maintain such an acceleration?

Capture.JPG


Mass of car (m) = 2000 kg
The hill has a constant inclination of 8 degrees (Θ = 8)
Initial velocity (u) = 90 km/h or 25 m/s
Friction coefficient due to wheel contact is 0.1
Air resistance (F[air]) = 0.85*v^2

Velocity = v, Time = t, Height = h, Force = F, Power = P
Energy = E, Kinetic Energy = KE, Gravitational Potential Energy = GPE

Homework Equations


P = ∑F * v
P = dE/dt
E = KE + GPE (no elastic potential energy)
GPE = 1/2*m*(h[final] - h[initial])
h[final] = s * sinΘ (s = distance)
s = 1/2(u+v)t (SUVAT equation)

The Attempt at a Solution


I drew a free body diagram of the system with a rotated axis so that the Normal force was the only force that was at an angle.

P[air] = F[air] * v * cosΘ * cos180
P[air] = -0.84*v^3

P[friction] = F[friction] * v * cosΘ * cos180 (F[friction] ~ 1942.91 N)
P[friction] = -1924.00*v

Assuming P[max] = P[motor]...
215,000 - 0.84*v^3 - 1924*v = dKE/dt + dGPE/dt
Maximum velocity means acceleration = 0
Maximum velocity also means KE = 0
Assuming h[initial] = 0

215,000 - 0.84*v^3 - 1924*v = d/dt (1/2*m*(1/2(u+v)t * sinΘ))
215,000 - 0.84*v^3 - 1924*v = d/dt(1000[(12.5t + 0.5vt)sinΘ])

I am stuck here because I think I am on the wrong track.
Any help is greatly appreciated.
 

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LippyKa16 said:
Friction coefficient due to wheel contact is 0.
I hope they mean rolling resistance. Static friction coefficient would be closer to 1, and is anyway irrelevant.
LippyKa16 said:
a rotated axis so that the Normal force was the only force that was at an angle.
Do you mean that gravity is the only one at an angle?
LippyKa16 said:
P[air] = F[air] * v * cosΘ * cos180
Why the the cos term here, and in the frictional force calculation? What is the angle between the velocity and the air resistance?
LippyKa16 said:
Maximum velocity means acceleration = 0
Yes, but the first part of the question asks for the power needed to achieve the given acceleration.
LippyKa16 said:
Maximum velocity also means KE = 0
You mean dKE/dt=0, yes?
LippyKa16 said:
d/dt (1/2*m*(1/2(u+v)t * sinθ))
What is this term? It looks a dKE/dt, not a dGPE/dt.
 
haruspex said:
I hope they mean rolling resistance. Static friction coefficient would be closer to 1, and is anyway irrelevant.

Do you mean that gravity is the only one at an angle?

Why the the cos term here, and in the frictional force calculation? What is the angle between the velocity and the air resistance?

Yes, but the first part of the question asks for the power needed to achieve the given acceleration.

You mean dKE/dt=0, yes?

What is this term? It looks a dKE/dt, not a dGPE/dt.

Sorry, yes I did mean the weight of the car was at an angle.

I was planning on adding the cosΘ term to all of the forces but that was unnecessary.

Yes sorry, I meant dKE/dt = 0 because maximum velocity is a constant.

The term d/dt (1/2*m*(1/2(u+v)t * sinΘ)) that I had was trying to incorporate the SUVAT formula for distance (s = 1/2(u+v)t) into the equation for final height (h = s * sinΘ)
 
LippyKa16 said:
The term d/dt (1/2*m*(1/2(u+v)t * sinΘ)) that I had was trying to incorporate the SUVAT formula for distance (s = 1/2(u+v)t) into the equation for final height (h = s * sinΘ)
Ok, but there seems to be an extra 1/2 in there.
Anyway, it is much simpler to consider: if it is moving at speed v up a slope angle θ, how fast is it gaining height?
 
haruspex said:
Ok, but there seems to be an extra 1/2 in there.
Anyway, it is much simpler to consider: if it is moving at speed v up a slope angle θ, how fast is it gaining height?
So basically the s should be velocity?
 
LippyKa16 said:
So basically the s should be velocity?
No, I did not say that. Simple question: if you are going up a slope θ at speed v how fast are you gaining height?
 
haruspex said:
No, I did not say that. Simple question: if you are going up a slope θ at speed v how fast are you gaining height?
You would be gaining height at v m/s right?
 
LippyKa16 said:
You would be gaining height at v m/s right?
No, the speed v is up the slope, not vertical.
 
haruspex said:
No, the speed v is up the slope, not vertical.
So you would gain height at a speed of v*sinΘ? That would be the y component of velocity?
 
Last edited:
  • #10
LippyKa16 said:
So you would gain height at a speed of v*sinΘ? That would be the y component of velocity?
Right, so how much power does that represent?
 
  • #11
haruspex said:
Right, so how much power does that represent?
Would that represent the v aspect of Power with regards to F*v for GPE?
 
  • #12
LippyKa16 said:
Would that represent the v aspect of Power with regards to F*v for GPE?
Not sure what you mean by "v aspect". It gives the power related to the gain of GPE. Yes, use the force times velocity formula to calculate it, but you must use the right force and the right velocity.
 
  • #13
haruspex said:
Not sure what you mean by "v aspect". It gives the power related to the gain of GPE. Yes, use the force times velocity formula to calculate it, but you must use the right force and the right velocity.
Ok, thank you for your help so far.
 
  • #14
haruspex said:
Not sure what you mean by "v aspect". It gives the power related to the gain of GPE. Yes, use the force times velocity formula to calculate it, but you must use the right force and the right velocity.
Would that Force be the force of the car and the velocity in v * sinθ is the unknown that I am trying to solve for? And would the equation for the gravitational potential energy be m*g*v*sinθ? I struggle with this stuff...
 
  • #15
LippyKa16 said:
would the equation for the gravitational potential energy be m*g*v*sinθ?
That's the rate of change of GPE, yes.
 
  • #16
haruspex said:
That's the rate of change of GPE, yes.
Thank you for your help, I think I have solved it now.
 

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