News A flex-fuel pump in every gas station

[Ivan Seeking]

Senator Biden suggested this on Meet The Press today: Mandate that every station must have a flex-fuel pump.

This sounds like a very tempting idea. Whether the best approach or not, I think we need to set national goals to convert the US to alternative fuels as the standard within ten years. I also believe that right now we could convert much of the diesel fleet as fast as we can build bio-diesel refineries. But in the case of both diesel and gasoline, IMO, the price of crude makes alternatives competitive and this the time to act.

I been looking and intend to get involved in promoting and assisting the biodiesel industry here in Oregon. I don't know exactly how best to contribute, but I want to start taking action to help this change happen. I also hope to buy a flex-fuel vehicle as our next car.

Suggestions? What can each of us do to help make the change? Where are the opportunties? What can students do? What opportunities exist for science and engineering students in this new growth industry?

 

[LURCH]

I think students can do more than anyone.

When my shop closed, I had the option of taking some college courses to help me get a new job. I don't have the math skills for a chem. major, so I'm taking CAD and robotics. Once I have my degree (hopefully "degrees"), I plan to apply for work at the new methenol refinery that just broke ground the month I started school. I'm too old to ever be on the forefront of the new tech, but I could be involved in one of the many millions of jobs it could create. And, if I don't get in at the refinery, maybe I'll try GM or Chrysler, and try to get into the fuelcell work that they're doing.

But these are extreme examples involving devoting one's entire life to this cause. Alternatives could be just shopping for a flex-fuel vehicle the next time you have to buy a car. Or buying your gas at the station that has biofuel. The major fueling stations will get on board as soon as they see that there are financial benifits.

 

[Pengwuino]

Why don't more people devote their lives to such causes anyhow? I can see if you're older, but with all the complaining kids out there marching on the street its a surprise there is such a low enrollment in science colleges. No one seems to want to actually work to make a difference.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

They say talk is cheap, but one thing seems to be working. I have been talking with customers and "selling" the idea that biodiesel is great for Oregon. "Wouldn't you prefer giving your money to Oregon farmers, rather than Saudi oil tycoons?"

I see the lights turning on upstairs...

 

[edward]

They say talk is cheap, but one thing seems to be working. I have been talking with customers and "selling" the idea that biodiesel is great for Oregon. "Wouldn't you prefer giving your money to Oregon farmers, rather than Saudi oil tycoons?"

I see the lights turning on upstairs...

And the more people who convert to flex and bio fuels the brighter those lights will shine.

I remember a few years ago when I was in Astoria Oregon I saw a small electric trolley. It had a small flat car hitched to the rear on which was mounted a diesel powered generator. The generator, of course, provided electricity for the trolley.

At the time I thought it was a very novel idea to have a wireless electric trolley. If That diesel generator was to run on bio, if it isn't already, it would be a great example to the public.

This post may not sound political, but it always takes political pressure to get any changes up and running in our society.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Last night a saw a short story on DSC about a guy who plans to break the world's record for traversing the globe in a boat. A high tech craft that goes under the waves in rough seas, the tail section boldly displays - BIODIESEL. In fact he had to make special arrangements to make biodiesel available at refueling points.

I was too busy to get the name and didn't spot a link, but worth a look. I'll try to find it again later. It is a very cool boat.

 

[Pengwuino]

They say talk is cheap, but one thing seems to be working. I have been talking with customers and "selling" the idea that biodiesel is great for Oregon. "Wouldn't you prefer giving your money to Oregon farmers, rather than Saudi oil tycoons?"

I see the lights turning on upstairs...

mmm i'd rather see people sold on a scientific basis then a xenophobic basis. Then again I'm far too optimistic of a guy.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep our money at home or helping farmers. The idea of xenophobic is taken way out of context here. In fact it's a unique argument because it completely avoids issues of evironmentalism, which does turn many people off.

 

[Pengwuino]

There is nothing wrong with wanting to keep our money at home. The idea of xenophobic is taken way out of context here.

Considering you specifically target Saudi's, i think it's one of the best words for describing such reactions. Maybe racism is a better word however. How about something less barbaric like "Why boost foreign economies when we can strengthen our own?". And why are you avoiding the environmental issues? Keep money a priority and you can still toss in a few environmental snipits here and there and keep people turned... on

hey according to this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodeisel#Environmental_benefits

Biodiesel is biodegradable and non-toxic - tests sponsored by the United States Department of Agriculture confirm biodiesel is less toxic than table salt and biodegrades as quickly as sugar.

(uncited however)

You can impress them by drinking some then tossing it in an engine

 

[NateTG]

You can impress them by drinking some then tossing it in an engine

Well, you can already do that with most any food grade oil and a diesel car as long as you dilute the vegetable oil. I don't recommend drinking too much of the vegetable oil at once though.

For the alterantive fuel extremist, fuel gassification (used in WWII during fuel shortages) opens up a *huge* variety of possible fuel sources you could run an engine off of just about anything that burns from Anthricite to Zebra Corpses.

 

[edward]

mmm i'd rather see people sold on a scientific basis then a xenophobic basis. Then again I'm far too optimistic of a guy.

Hey what's with you and your apparent love for saudi oil tycoons? If anyone on this forum even mentions keeping wealth in this coutry the word Xenophobic always pops up.

If bio and flex could just supply 20% of our fuel needs, and that can easily be accomplished, we wouldn't have to start a war in the middle east everytime an Islamic leader passes gas.

 

[Pengwuino]

Hey what's with you and your apparent love for saudi oil tycoons? If anyone on this forum even mentions keeping wealth in this coutry the word Xenophobic always pops up.

If bio and flex could just supply 20% of our fuel needs, and that can easily be accomplished, we wouldn't have to start a war in the middle east everytime an Islamic leader passes gas.

Yah why do you guys always bring up xenophobia in your threads

And can you source a reputable source that says such a thing can "easily" be accomplished?

 

[edward]

Yah why do you guys always bring up xenophobia in your threads

And can you source a reputable source that says such a thing can "easily" be accomplished?

It depends on what you consider "easily accomplished". The hardest part is convincing politicans to require its availability so that people can make their own choice.

Both bio and alcohol could be mixed with standard fossil fuels at the refineries. Vehicles run great and run clean with a 20% mix with either bio or alcohol. That would accomplish the 20% decrease in use of fossil I mentioned as being easy.

The ideal situation would be to have the "real thing" available at the pumps.

The production process for bio and alcohol is quite simple. Both burn cleaner than regular fossil sources of fuel.
BTW Willy Nelson, the pot smoking , guitar playing old geezer, sells bio in California. Try it you'll like it.
http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/products.html
http://www.house.gov/etheridge/Press-BiofuelsLegislation.htm

 

[NateTG]

And can you source a reputable source that says such a thing can "easily" be accomplished?

Can you quantify easily? It's definitely possible for example in Brazil.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Considering you specifically target Saudi's, i think it's one of the best words for describing such reactions. Maybe racism is a better word however. How about something less barbaric like "Why boost foreign economies when we can strengthen our own?".

Ah, you think using the word Saudi makes it racist? Doesn't that in itself seem a little racist? You could say, UAE, Brazilian, or Texan, and it would work just as well. The real point is to showcase personal wealth of the elite - esp the OPEC elite who have held this country hostage in the past - as opposed to the working farmer.

And why are you avoiding the environmental issues?

Because many people will automatically reject the idea if they think it is good for the environment. Sad but true.

Never sell science when you can talk money.

 

[Moonbear]

Both bio and alcohol could be mixed with standard fossil fuels at the refineries. Vehicles run great and run clean with a 20% mix with either bio or alcohol. That would accomplish the 20% decrease in use of fossil I mentioned as being easy.

One question that comes to mind when discussing bio fuels or ethanol: is it sustainable? Obviously, fossil fuels aren't, so it's not necessarily something that kills the concept, but let's say you got your way and everyone started using a 20% mix of bio or ethanol added to fuels, is there enough farmland to support this? Currently, crops are grown for human food, then the leftover portion inedible for humans is turned into animal feeds. Is there still an excess sufficient for fuel production, and if not, how much new cropland would need to be planted to provide this fuel? Considering how many former farm fields have been sold to developers for building homes, how much land is left to be planted for such a purpose? And, what would be the environmental impact of using that land for crops rather than whatever it's current state is?

Another related concern is if it becomes more profitable for farmers to sell their crops to companies using it to manufacture fuel, what will that do to food costs?

I don't have any answers to these questions at the moment, but before we jump into this based on feel-good reasons, it's worth a deeper look into the long-term economic and environmental impacts if large-scale production of these fuels were implemented. The environmental impact is more than just what's coming out of the tailpipe of the car. If we can really support that sort of growth in the agricultural sector, that's great, but if the demand would quickly outstrip the supply capacity of that sector, then we're in trouble. Has this sort of analysis been done, and if so, where is it available?

 

[brewnog]

Nope Moonbear. The USA alone would require over half of its entire land area to be able to support itself on bioethanol.


Ooh, real facts here:

In 2005, United States gasoline consumption was about 150 billion gallons per year. An acre of corn can produce approximately 200 gallons (gasoline equivalent) per year. The United States would have to place roughly 750 million acres of corn into production to fully meet this demand. For comparison, this is nearly double the total area currently used for all crops in the US (430 million acres) and about one third of the total land area of the United States (2.3 billion acres). There are currently about 80 million acres of corn planted in the United States.

 

[edward]

Nope Moonbear. The USA alone would require over half of its entire land area to be able to support itself on bioethanol.

Ooh, real facts here:

Yes half to support itself 100%, but only a fraction of that to give us a break from using nearly 100% imported crude. And we don't all have to continue driving 8mpg behemouths. Run the numbers with vehicles that average 40mpg and that land area drops impressivily.

We have become spoiled with the feeling of having 230 HP or more under our right toe. To continue using 20million barrels of cuude per day is not sustainable either. We haven't even looked at developing bio engineered grains grown especially for alcohol or diesel fuel production. Cellulose is also in the running as a biomass fuel producer. Cellulose would include using all waste farm and forest products.

There is a whole new world of possibilities that have never been explored because oil has always been so cheap.

When the price of gasoline gets high enough people will change. Honda dealers can't keep Civics in stock now.

 

[Cyrus]

But this is all based on the current yields of corn. I wonder what steps are being taken to genetically alter fast growing corn. If you could grow 2-3 times the corn from the same field in one season, you can drastically reduce the amount of land you need to support the consumption rates.

 

[edward]

But this is all based on the current yields of corn. I wonder what steps are being taken to genetically alter fast growing corn. If you could grow 2-3 times the corn from the same field in one season, you can drastically reduce the amount of land you need to support the consumption rates.

Exactly. Sorry I had to go outside and check on my grandson and I didn't notice that you had already posted on the possibility of GE crops when I came back to the desk and edited it into my post.

 

[Cyrus]

Another note, it would be critical that these "fast growing" corn plants require the *same* amount of nutrients from the ground so that they do not exhaust the soil. Where is george washington carver when you need him?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

First, here is a thread about the boat mentioned
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=123713

Next, it looks like the ultimate crop for biodiesel comes from algae.

Feedstock US Gallons/acre Litres/hectare
Soybean 40 375
Rapeseed 110 1,000
Mustard 140 1,300
Jatropha 175 1,590
Palm Oil 650 5,800
Algae 10,000 95,000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

But the price of fuel may make one or another, or several options viable for farmers.

 

[edward]

First, here is a thread about the boat mentioned
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=123713

Next, it looks like the ultimate crop for biodiesel comes from algae.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biodiesel

But the price of fuel may make one or another, or several options viable for farmers.

That boat is just WOW.

 

[edward]

Another note, it would be critical that these "fast growing" corn plants require the *same* amount of nutrients from the ground so that they do not exhaust the soil. Where is george washington carver when you need him?

I have been thinking about the soil situation. It would be fantastic if GE could come up with some plants that could thrive in poor soil.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

At least one type of algae can even be grown in salt water. The discussion picks up on about page three here:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=108344&page=3

 

[edward]

Oak Ridge national Laboratory was working on GE plants that produced higher energy levels. The last link I can find is from 2000. This may have gotten political.
http://www.ornl.gov/info/ornlreview/v33_2_00/bioenergy.htm

 

[Skyhunter]

Bio-Diesel production is going to get a lot easier if this device can be developed and implemented on a large scale.

http://www.ncdc.noaa.gov/img/climate/research/ushcn/ts.ushcn_anom25_diffs_urb-raw_pg.gif

A tiny chemical reactor that can convert vegetable oil directly into biodiesel could help farmers turn some of their crops into homegrown fuel to operate agricultural equipment instead of relying on costly imported oil

 

[Astronuc]

Deep-Fried Fuel: A Biodiesel Kitchen Vision
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=5698538

Morning Edition, August 24, 2006 · Sometimes we find the stories, sometimes the stories find us. This is one of the latter.

I was getting my hair cut by Gigi Brestle and asking her what she had done for the Fourth of July. She described her visit to Carl's Corner, a wild truck stop outside of Dallas, where Willie Nelson, Shooter Jennings, Leon Russell and dozens of groups had performed. Kinky Friedman was there campaigning, and every biodiesel entrepreneur known to man was sharing their wares. Truckers were filling their tanks with BioWillie, and the barbecue was good.

We had always wanted to include Willie Nelson's infamous July Fourth picnic in Hidden Kitchens. Suddenly, Brestle was opening our eyes to a world we never considered.

. . . .

So biodiesel is slowly become acceptable. It helps to have name recognition.

 

[Yonoz]

You can impress them by drinking some then tossing it in an engine

There's a guy in Jerusalem who collects used vegetable oils from the falafel shops and processes it in a self-made contraption on the back of his ute. He'll trade a liter of oil for a liter of his biodiesel to raise awareness, there are enough people willing to give oil for no return, so he pretty much gets biodiesel for free.

 

[Astronuc]

Probably this belongs in a different thread, but here it is anyway -

Alt Fuels Rule at British International Motor Show
http://spectrum.ieee.org/aug06/4365

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

http://renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=45805

On the topic of alternative energy. Just to show that things are being done, although slowly and surely.

 

[brewnog]

There's a guy in Jerusalem who collects used vegetable oils from the falafel shops and processes it in a self-made contraption on the back of his ute. He'll trade a liter of oil for a liter of his biodiesel to raise awareness, there are enough people willing to give oil for no return, so he pretty much gets biodiesel for free.

Sure, but there's not nearly enough used vegetable oil going free to power even a tenth of the vehicles on the roads. Also, the resultant fuel is of such low quality that you won't find a manufacturer willing to warranty their cars using it.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Obviously you haven't been keeping up. In the state of Washington, for example, biodiesel is now mandated to replace sulfur additives. All diesel sold in Washington will be [or is] B2. Not only does this eliminate the sulfur, the bio has better lubricity.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I was wondering about the source of your information. Generally, except for slightly fewer BTUs/ gallon [about the same as gasoline, IIRC], bio is generally considered superior to petro-diesel. From everything that I've seen, it once had a bad reputation for two reason:

1). Causes fuel system failures

This was due to the fact that bio is a good solvent. The plugged filters and fuel injection equip resulted from petro-diesel sludge being cleaned out by the bio. Upon conversion, changes filters frequently until the sludge is removed.

2). Causes deterioration of seals

Allegedly this problem is resolved by the synthetic materials used in modern engines.

Even though bio has slightly less energy density than petro, the far superior lubricity results in approximately the same mileage. I recently confirmed this claim with one bio user in Sacramento. In fact he had expected more, but his mileage barely changed upon conversion.

 

[Yonoz]

http://www.worldwatch.org/node/4526" : The Renewable Path to Energy Security."

Many of the new technologies that harness renewables are, or soon will be, economically competitive with fossil fuels. Dynamic growth rates are driving down costs and spurring rapid advances in technologies. Since 2000, global wind energy generation has more than tripled; solar cell production has risen six-fold; production of fuel ethanol from crops have more than doubled; and biodiesel production has expanded nearly four-fold. Annual global investment in "new" renewable energy has risen almost six-fold since 1995, with cumulative investment over this period nearly $180 billion.[/QUOTE]

 

[selfAdjoint]

Renewals are the wave of the future, and they always will be. Or at least your 6% figure has held steady for a decade or more. The mix shifts a little; hydroelectric is maybe down a bit while windmills are up, but the total stays right around 6%, and Worldwatch is not the most disinterested source to quote..

 

[Yonoz]

Worldwatch is not the most disinterested source to quote..

Please explain.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Please explain.

From wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwatch_Institute

"...environmentally sustainable and socially just"?

It's an advocacy group.

 

[Yonoz]

From wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwatch_Institute

"...environmentally sustainable and socially just"?

It's an advocacy group.

Why else would they publish a report?
I don't see how having a motive implies what one says is untrue.

 

[selfAdjoint]

Why else would they publish a report?

For scientifuc or scholarly reasons? Do you imagine that no-one does anything unless they have a political agenda?

I don't see how having a motive implies what one says is untrue.

Karl Rove has a lovely load of BS to sell you. Or if not him maybe al Qaida? Since motive doesn't call information into question?

 

[Yonoz]

For scientifuc or scholarly reasons?

No, for discussion reasons. It presents a certain view point and its publisher is quite clear about its agenda. We can tackle the article's specifics if you like.

Do you imagine that no-one does anything unless they have a political agenda?

Some agenda, yes. However Worldwatch's agenda is out in the open, not quite political, and I find it hard to criticize: http://www.worldwatch.org/node/24"

The Worldwatch Institute is an independent research organization that works for an environmentally sustainable and socially just society, in which the needs of all people are met without threatening the health of the natural environment or the well-being of future generations.

By providing compelling, accessible, and fact-based analysis of critical global issues, Worldwatch informs people around the world about the complex interactions between people, nature, and economies. Worldwatch focuses on the underlying causes of and practical solutions to the world's problems, in order to inspire people to demand new policies, investment patterns and lifestyle choices.

Karl Rove has a lovely load of BS to sell you. Or if not him maybe al Qaida? Since motive doesn't call information into question?

Of course it does. But when someone expresses their motives as openly as they do their viewpoints, I see no need to discredit them, quite the opposite.

 

[selfAdjoint]

The point, Yonoz, is that you find it hard to disagree with Worldwatch's stated agenda (expressed in very noble general terms to be sure), so you are insensitive to the fact that they may be slanting their interpretations toward what they hope to see. Farmers in Wisconsin devoutly believe that ethanol reduces dependence on foreign oil, though many critics believe it takes more oil to produce ethanol than you would burn if you used the oil to make gas for cars. The worlkdwatch people have been green enthusiasts for decades. If I am not mistaken they used to be into population catastrophe predictions, but I could be wrong.

 

[Yonoz]

I thought "an environmentally sustainable and socially just society, in which the needs of all people are met without threatening the health of the natural environment or the well-being of future generations" would be a consensus, apparently I was mistaken.
The Knesset - Israel's Parliament - has a body called "http://www.knesset.gov.il/sponsorship/future/data/About_E.asp"", is there an equivalent body in the US?