Undergrad A model of what makes up the physical world

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The discussion revolves around a high school science teacher's attempt to create a mind map of the fundamentals of the physical world for senior classes. Key concerns include whether to include momentum as a separate concept or as a mix of matter and energy, with several participants arguing that momentum should not be simplified in this way. Critics caution that the proposed diagram may confuse students, as it could imply incorrect relationships between concepts like force, matter, and energy. Suggestions include using established resources like Hyperphysics or focusing on core principles such as Noether's theorem, though some argue that the latter may be too advanced for high school students. Ultimately, the teacher aims to use the mind map as a scaffold for understanding physics, despite its limitations.
  • #31
pkc111 said:
So what does Physics assert are the fundamentals of the universe ? if it doesn't include mass or energy
As it was already mentioned, energy and mass are just concept introduced by physicist to model the physical world. They are not more "fundamental of the universe" than length, speed or acceleration. They are not things, parts of the universe. Unless you include mental processes in the universe studied by physics.
Same is true for "force".
It seems that you are trying to "force" both reality and the ensemble of physical concepts to a "model" which is not based on either.
 
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  • #32
pkc111 said:
Personally I don't have a problem with students shedding their mind maps (or any models that I give them) as they grow.

Consider the problems you'll create for the students, though.
 
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  • #33
pkc111 said:
So what does Physics assert are the fundamentals of the universe ? if it doesn't include mass or energy
pkc111 said:
As a physics teacher I think I should know a thorough definition.
You are setting yourself far too hard a task here; you are risking a lot with many of your students.
I mentioned before that 'students' (young ones in particular) mostly want things in hard black and white and any home brewed attempt to present a form of universal concept map will be mis-used by many of your students. You have to ask yourself in just what way is it supposed to help them? No use for revision, at all and a possible source of confusion ("now, where does this jigsaw piece fit?") when they haven't listened to your caveats and assurances about what it's really intended for. You must be aware that the first time some of your students will actually look at your diagram will be when they are at home and they want to use it for answering a question. They will have been looking out of the window when you earnestly told them the context of the map.
Then they will put a confused post on PF when they try to make sense of it. They may not get a good reception or a satisfactory answer.
Boring as it may seem, the standard Curriculum has at least be subject to a certain amount of peer review and, for those students with more of a gift, there is plenty of peripheral stuff to read. The Hyperphysics approach is pragmatic and has the approval of dozens or more of PF members (it's a major source of references on PF posts).
 
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  • #34
pkc111 said:
Can three overlapping circles with a circle around them not be a mind map?
Wow. I can't believe you said that.

You need to look up Venn Diagram. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venn_diagram

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Plus that your map is just plain wrong. Forces come from fields, so the word on the diagram should be fields.. Then, it shows a region where you have energy but no matter no fields. That is a common misconception. Energy is a property of matter and fields, like color is a property of each circle above. Energy is not a "element" of physics independent of matter and fields.
 

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  • #35
pkc111 said:
So what does Physics assert are the fundamentals of the universe ? if it doesn't include mass or energy

Others have had their two cents - so will I. Our best guess right now is what Peter said. But a definite answers isn't really what science is about:


In fact the essence, the rock bottom characteristic of science is doubt. If your students need to understand anything its that.

As far as your students go watching and reading Feynman's Character Of Physical Law will help:
https://www.amazon.com/dp/0262533413/?tag=pfamazon01-20
http://www.richard-feynman.net/videos.htm

Mass and energy are part of the universe - but we now know they are not necessarily fundamental eg look into Higgs and mass. I won't discuss energy because that will involve Noether which we already have talked about.

Thanks
Bill
 
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  • #36
PeterDonis said:
It depends. If you mean, what does physics say are the closest things to "fundamentals" that we currently understand, I would say it's spacetime and the fundamental fields and interactions given in the Standard Model of particle physics
..and the elementary particles, isnt'it?
About the simmetries from which conservation laws are derived (and so the important quantities as energy, momentum, etc) you have already included them writing "in the Standard Model"?

--
lightarrow
 
  • #37
lightarrow said:
and the elementary particles, isnt'it?

"Elementary particles" are particular states of the underlying quantum fields. That's why I said "fields" instead of "particles"; others might have said "the fundamental particles and interactions in the Standard Model", but I think "fields" is a better term since there are quantum field states that do not have a particle interpretation.
 
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  • #38
lightarrow said:
About the simmetries from which conservation laws are derived (and so the important quantities as energy, momentum, etc) you have already included them writing "in the Standard Model"?

Yes. The Standard Model includes a specification of its gauge group, which tells you the internal symmetries, and being a quantum field theory it's Lorentz invariant, which tells you the spacetime symmetries.
 
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  • #39
PeterDonis said:
Yes. The Standard Model includes a specification of its gauge group, which tells you the internal symmetries, and being a quantum field theory it's Lorentz invariant, which tells you the spacetime symmetries.
I also reply to your other previous answer to me in this post: so to start from these "building blocks of physics" we must already have a lot of physics :smile:
So the "simple" task of the OP it's not simple at all... after all. Probably physics have to be continuosly "discovered" as we teach it.

--
lightarrow
 
  • #40
lightarrow said:
so to start from these "building blocks of physics" we must already have a lot of physics :smile:

Yes. And for that reason I agree with a comment made earlier in this thread (post #17 by @Mister T ) that it's better to start with specifics and gradually work up to generalities. Starting with generalities that have no grounding in the student's prior knowledge just makes physics look confusing and daunting.
 
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  • #41
pkc111 said:
although it is more like a circular list rather than a mind map showing any meaningful relationships between the areas of study.
My experience with mind maps is very much along the lines of a circular hierarchical list without meaningful relationships.

pkc111 said:
But my question is what are the fundamental building blocks of the universe put forward in this foundation science?
Currently I would say spacetime and fields. However, for a physics class it might be more useful to break down physics rather than the universe. Then you might break it into theories and experiments, or maybe theories, models, and experiments.
 
  • #42
Having read through this extensive discussion, I have a few things to say that can help.

1) The YouTube channel: Domain of Science has an excellent Map of Physics that is hard to beat and perhaps would give students that sense of understanding that you are trying to bring to your class something you might use as a starting point and elaborate more on:



2) Most textbooks and places like Khan Academy follow a prescribed path through physics that mirrors in some ways the map in #1. Your students will look to these sources in order make sense of what they are learning so we don't want to add unnecessary levels of abstraction on top of it.

For non Calculus students there's this online resource:

https://openstax.org/details/books/college-physics

and for students versed in Calculus there's this resource:

https://openstax.org/details/books/university-physics-volume-1

Another resource is Ben Crowell's excellent books:

http://www.lightandmatter.com/

My suggestion is to incorporate references to these books for your students use doing it for each topic you cover.

3) As a physics major in high school and college, I was caught in the web of trying to resolve the physics popularizations of the day with all the magic and mystery presented with what I was actually learning. It caused me great confusion. The refrain from my teachers was always go back to the math, the math describes the physics accurately in ways the popularized conceptual ideas can't.

@phinds always brings this up in his posts about the balloon analogy of the universe or the rubber sheet description of how gravity works in relatvity. They get an idea across but you then have to drop the analogy before it derails your thinking ie don't read too much into the analogy go back to the math.

4) Have you ever taken math classes where the prof starts at a very general conceptual and abstract approach and its only in the closing days of the class that you discover how everything really fits together in a practical sense? I hated those classes, I would panic and question why I was learning something I didn't understand.

Your students won't have that confidence to stay the course and will panic because high schoolers are worried about their grade point averages and getting into the college of their dreams. So as teachers we don't want to use them as a testbed of new bold conceptual ideas when the focus of the course is to teach them physics as precisely as we can.

Your students will also panic over formulas to be remembered and when they are applied. Many will try to pick the formula needed based solely on the constraints and forget about the added clues found in the geometry and symmetry of the problem because that's what worked in other courses. I have x and y and this formula uses x and y so now I can find z... but wait now what? Typically when doing a force diagram, I would forget to add a force like tension and consequently got stuck.
 
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  • #43
pkc111 said:
what is physics the study of exactly? I feel I might have a better chance of making a mind map if I had this I am looking for a reliable comprehensive and meaningful definition of physics?
I don't think that the approach of having a visual representation of the most important physical concepts and their interconnections first and filling it with life later works. It doesn't work for you right now and it won't work for your students.

These visualizations are always personal because everybody understands physics in their own way. If you aren't able to come up with a visualization which is satisfying to yourself, this probably means that you haven't understood the concepts well enough. So if you want to find a satisfying visualization, you need to dig deeper into the concepts.

I really don't think that there's a way of skipping this by simply taking the opinion of others about how a good visualization should look like. At least for me, it takes a lot of work to integrate big ideas into my thinking. Taking a visualization serious which doesn't reflect my own understanding tempts me to fool myself into thinking that I have understood the concepts while I may have only names.

As for the teaching, I think you shouldn't aim for finding the "correct" way to connect the names but for bringing the concepts alive for your students and have them draw their own connections afterwards.
 
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  • #44
Thank you to all those who made constructive suggestions about the model..I have learned so much!
 
  • #45
Ok so I have really got a headache trying to make all the things fit together as I first envisaged and as posters have pointed out its probably too big a job to attempt. I have decided to aim for a simple classical physics view of the universe and a modern view of the universe separately...as they really are fundamentally different paradigms I now realize probably never meant to be put together.
The course I high school course I teach is primarily classical physics, so that the view where I would like to put the more detail in a map. Of course my students do some relativity and some quantum physics but not enough to justify getting carried away with the mind map.I really like this image from jedishrfu
upload_2018-5-18_19-59-7.png
which to me shows "big ideas and discoveries in classical, relativity and quantum physics"
and I like the image from Berkeman which to me shows the "current fields of study of physicists"
However I would still like to have something that attempts to map the fundamentals of what physicists think the universe is made up of so here is round 2...any comments welcome.
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  • #46
pkc111 said:
Ok so I have really got a headache trying to make all the things fit together as I first envisaged and as posters have pointed out its probably too big a job to attempt. I have decided to aim for a simple classical physics view of the universe and a modern view of the universe separately...as they really are fundamentally different paradigms I now realize probably never meant to be put together.
The course I high school course I teach is primarily classical physics, so that the view where I would like to put the more detail in a map. Of course my students do some relativity and some quantum physics but not enough to justify getting carried away with the mind map.I really like this image from jedishrfu View attachment 225883 which to me shows "big ideas and discoveries in classical, relativity and quantum physics"
and I like the image from Berkeman which to me shows the "current fields of study of physicists"
However I would still like to have something that attempts to map the fundamentals of what physicists think the universe is made up of so here is round 2...any comments welcome.
View attachment 225884
This is better. I would get rid of aether, otherwise you would need to include all of the discarded concepts.
 
  • #47
Or phlogiston or caloric...

I think many people overestimate the time that classical physics favored the aether theory. ("Light is a wave and the aether is the medium that supports this wave") Yes, the idea goes back to Newton, but Newton favored the corpuscular theory of light. The wave theory wasn't cemented into the consciousness of the field until at least 1820 with the Poisson spot, and it wasn't until the decade after that that any attempts to quantify the properties of the aether were made. None of those attempts were really successful until Maxwell in 1867, which wasn't confirmed until "Hertzian waves" were discovered in 1887. That was the same year as Michelson-Morley.

Essentially, the moment you had a clear, complete and testable theory, it was known to be in trouble.
 
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  • #48
pkc111 said:
I have decided to aim for a simple classical physics view of the universe and a modern view of the universe separately...as they really are fundamentally different paradigms

You will learn a lot constructing and refining your map. If you are a conscientious teacher you will test your students over what you ask them to learn, otherwise they will learn that they don't need to learn your map. And if you get them to understand your map you will have wasted valuable time and effort getting them to understand physics.

Your idea of a map may be a good thing for the end of the class, but it is blunder to start with it.
 
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  • #49
Mister T said:
And if you get them to understand your map you will have wasted valuable time and effort getting them to understand physics.
I am not so sure it is wasteful. Although if I were doing it I would make a hierarchical list of theories and the assumptions that lead from one to the other. I.e. start with the standard model, neglect non EM interactions to get QED, take the classical limit to get Maxwell’s equations, branch off to circuit theory and optics each with their assumptions, etc. Then when students asked a question that was out of scope I would just indicate where it fit.
 
  • #50
Dale said:
I am not so sure it is wasteful.
It would depend on which of the class of students we're discussing. I can see it as in fact being a soft option for many students who would see a conversation about the map as far preferable to solving questions from the book or learning a few useful formulae. Those students who have the motivation to do the 'official' parts of the course, read, learn and solve the problems independently will find it enriches their experience of Physics. But they would probably do well if they were just given a book and an exam deadline - with the occasional tutorial with a teacher. That's the way many University courses are structured and the students will have been selected from amongst the ranks of the OP's High School cohort.
I repeat the point I have often made that most school students are unbelievably literal in the way they receive what they're told in class. They want facts and lists of definitions and can easily become confused when called upon the 'think'. The Philosophy of the subject they are learning can easily serve to confuse and demotivate them.
 
  • #51
One need I have for a simple mind map showing the fundamentals, is when a student asks (as happened last year) , what is momentum. My response was mass x velocity. The student's response was "yes, but what is it really?".
This was after they had developed some really nice understandings of matter and energy and the differences between them, we had understood motion well in terms of its descriptors of speed, velocity, acceleration and up to that point physics made sense to them. Thats where I got stumped..I didnt have a nice description of what it was that had meaning to the students and related it to the real world. I told them it is "an indicator of the difficulty to stop of an object, but really kinetic energy is a better indicator of it". I could see it wasnt really a satisfactory answer to the student.
In hindsight I felt I really needed a map, and be able to point to a box of these less tangible physics words and say they belong here in the world of " mathematical constructs" so don't worry too much about their meaning or relationship to the world just at the moment... just use it and be thankful that it is conserved in collisions.. so you can solve some of these great problems!
I don't want a map for students to recite and learn and spend hours in talking about it, I want it to show what can be "understood" easily..in terms of some specific simple relationships.. and also list those which don't really have a place that is easy to see, and really don't need to be understood beyond a mathematical formula for the syllabus at this point in time...and the real value of it is in its usefulness rather than its meaning.
I want a map to smooth the journey for the students so they don't get caught up with concepts they don't feel they understand and therefore worry they are missing something in the course (and feel reassured that many other scientists don't fully understand the concept either). But for this concepts for which there is some sort of classical model for understanding (mass, energy, space, time, force, fields) I want to be able to have one...at least in my own mind.
 
  • #52
pkc111 said:
a student asks (as happened last year) , what is momentum. My response was mass x velocity. The student's response was "yes, but what is it really?".

There are two ways of handling this. One would be to disuss the relationship between momentum and space translation symmetry, given by Noether's Theorem, which is more generalizable than mass x velocity. (For one thing, momentum = mass x velocity is no longer true in relativity.)

The other, which you'll eventually be forced to in any case, is that we don't know what momentum "really" is; we don't know what energy "really" is; we don't know what mass "really" is; etc. All we know is that we observe certain law-like regularities in the way the world works, and these things like "momentum", "energy", "mass", etc. appear in the mathematical models we construct to describe these law-like regularities and make predictions using them. If the student wants more than that, they need to look elsewhere than science class; as Indiana Jones told his students, "if it's Truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."
 
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  • #53
PeterDonis said:
The other, which you'll eventually be forced to in any case, is that we don't know what momentum "really" is; we don't know what energy "really" is; we don't know what mass "really" is; etc.
This put me in mind of one of the Feynman Youtube videos, on magnets, and why they repel each other, but more about how difficult "why" questions are in physics.

 
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  • #54
pkc111 said:
I don't want a map for students to recite and learn and spend hours in talking about it,
An admirable sentiment. But what audience are you actually going to present this map to? I am in UK and the school divisions are slightly different. I have read that High School is for students from 14 to 18. In the UK, 'secondary' is from 11 to 16 and then there is a two year '6th Form' which is aimed at preparing for University Education. The Physics Syllabus (called a specification, these days, I think) is chock full of stuff that they need to learn and they are as grateful as hell if you can give them a practical way through. A concept map of the Hyperphysics kind is something that's very tangible and it's at a low philosophical level but highly applicable for them. It shows them categories of study and it's a 2D tick box for them to see their progress. I know it has its shortcomings but, if you want all students to have some idea about what a map is all about then they all have a chance with it.
Bottom line is that most of the comments people have made in this thread are way above the heads of the majority of School age students in respect of words and concepts. The map classifications that have been discussed are suitable for adult retrospection and they are not for finding your way through for the first time.
Dealing with the "what is x, really" question is a separate problem.
 
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  • #55
Moderator's note: two off topic posts have been deleted. Please keep the discussion on topic.
 
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  • #56
PeterDonis said:
The other, which you'll eventually be forced to in any case, is that we don't know what momentum "really" is; we don't know what energy "really" is; we don't know what mass "really" is; etc. All we know is that we observe certain law-like regularities in the way the world works, and these things like "momentum", "energy", "mass", etc. appear in the mathematical models we construct to describe these law-like regularities and make predictions using them. If the student wants more than that, they need to look elsewhere than science class; as Indiana Jones told his students, "if it's Truth you're interested in, Dr. Tyree's philosophy class is right down the hall."
Yes I like this approach of being clear about what science is and what it is not...which reminds me that I should try to prepare students minds for Physics before I teach it... manage expectations so to speak. I think I need to let them know that mathematics is a valid language, just as valid as words, and it is sometimes the only accurate way we have to describe a concept. In some ways as Feynman says in the magnetism video it would be cheating the student to try and explain some concepts in any other way.
There is a subject called Theory of Knowledge in the IB program which has a resource which may give me a good basis to do that I feel (see below).
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  • #57
pkc111 said:
My response was mass x velocity. The student's response was "yes, but what is it really?".
I would strongly recommend to never ever engage in such a question. Simply repeat the definition. The definition is the answer to the question “what is it” and it is also the answer to the question “what is it really” and the question “what is it really actually truly”.

Alternatively, you can restate the definition and then say something like “but what you should be asking is why is it useful”
 
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  • #58
Dale said:
I would strongly recommend to never ever engage in such a question. Simply repeat the definition. The definition is the answer to the question “what is it” and it is also the answer to the question “what is it really” and the question “what is it really actually truly”.
Alternatively, you can restate the definition and then say something like “but what you should be asking is why is it useful”
Non - Scientists are the ones who tend to justify the "why' question. Getting across the idea to students that Physics only tries to make working models of the World can relieve the stress they can feel about not 'understanding things fully'. They have to learn that Science does not work on Axioms, like Maths does. We are aiming at a set of theories that are mutually self consistent, rather than any ultimate truth.
 
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  • #59
so from a classical physics point of view if we decide to relegate momentum to only being talked about as concept or mathematical construct rather than some sort of thing like matter or energy, then is it valid to ever describe momentum as being "transferred" during a collision?
 
  • #60
pkc111 said:
if we decide to relegate momentum to only being talked about as concept or mathematical construct rather than some sort of thing like matter or energy

Energy is a property of matter/fields and a mathematical construct the same way momentum is.
 
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