A question about vector space manifold

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around the properties of matrix rank in relation to open submanifolds within the space of mxn matrices. Participants explore the implications of defining sets based on matrices with ranks "at least k" versus "equal to k," and the stability of rank under small perturbations of matrix entries.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions why the set of matrices with rank equal to k is not an open submanifold, suggesting that the presence of a nonsingular k*k minor implies openness.
  • Another participant notes that rank is unstable, providing an example where a small change in a matrix entry can alter its rank from 0 to 1.
  • A participant asserts that a matrix can only have one rank, leading to the conclusion that sets of matrices with different ranks are mutually exclusive.
  • There is a request for references to support the argument regarding the rank of matrices.
  • Discussion includes the definition of rank in terms of linear independence and the potential for small changes to increase the rank of a matrix from k to a higher value r.
  • Participants explore the concept of modifying dependent rows to achieve a rank increase, emphasizing the role of linear combinations and spans.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the nature of sets defined by matrix rank, particularly regarding the openness of these sets. There is no consensus on the implications of small changes to matrix entries on rank stability, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific conditions under which rank changes occur.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on definitions of rank and the nuances of how small perturbations affect matrix properties. The discussion does not resolve the mathematical steps involved in demonstrating the openness of the sets in question.

huyichen
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If k is an integer between 0 and min(m,n),show that the set of
mxn matrices whose rank is at least k is an open submanifold of
M(mxn, R).Show that this is not true if "at least k"is replaced by
"equal to k."
For this problem, I don't understand why the statement is not true if we replace "at least k" by "equal to k", I am thinking that the set of m*n matrices whose rank is equal to k will have some k*k minor nonsingular, thus any such rank k matrices will have a open nbd contained in Mk(m*n, R) (which is the set of m*n matrices whose rank is equal to k) , and thus make Mk(m*n, R) open in M(m*n,R) (which is the set of all matrices with real entries).
Could anyone help me with the second part of this problem?
 
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In general rank is highly unstable. For example given a matrix of rank 0, you can make arbitrarily small changes to a single entry to change the rank to 1.

If you have a matrix of rank k, even if you have a k*k minor which is nonsingular, a small change in the entries won't make that singular but could result in you having a larger non-singular minor
 
So is it true that Mk1(m*n,R) is contained in Mk2(m*n,R) for any k2>k1?
 
No. A matrix can have only one rank, so it can't be contained in two such sets. They're mutually exclusive
 
Could you point to me any reference on that part? I need more detailed formal argument.
 
The rank can be defined as either the largest k so that a kxk minor exists, the dimension of the image of the matrix, the dimension of the span of the rows of the matrix, or the dimension of the span of the columns of the matrix.

Whichever definition you're using, it's obvious that a matrix can only have one rank. So if a matrix is in both M_k(m\times n) AND M_r(m\times n), then it has two different ranks which doesn't make any sense
 
I mean I want to know about how small changes will make rank k matrice into rank r where r>k, for this part I am not clear.
 
It won't necessarily change the rank, but all we need is that it could change the rank

Let's look at the row span definition. If we have rank of k, then there are k linearly independent rows, and then say a row that is a linear combination. Now let's assume that the k linearly independent rows do not form a basis for Rm (if they do, you have a full rank matrix, which does give us an open submanifold). Then there is some vector that does not lie in the span of our k linearly independent rows - this is not a row of the matrix, but some vector exists.

Do you see how you can modify one of your rows using the existence of this matrix to increase the rank?
 
You mean change one of the dependent row into a row that is not in the span of k independent rows? In that way you can change the rank?
 
  • #10
That's right
 

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