Applying symmetry to an asymmetrical circuit

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    Circuit Symmetry
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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around solving a circuit problem that involves applying symmetry and the superposition theorem. The circuit in question is nearly symmetrical but has slight differences, such as a source on one side and an unknown impedance on the other. Participants explore various methods to determine the potential difference across the unknown impedance and its value when a specific condition is met.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Homework-related

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses difficulty in solving the circuit using only Kirchhoff's laws and seeks assistance.
  • Another suggests starting with deductions about the currents in each branch when the voltage across a specific inductor is zero, indicating that Kirchhoff's Current Law (KCL) may be useful.
  • Some participants argue that superposition may not be applicable due to the nature of the circuit elements involved.
  • A suggestion is made to model the circuit using Z-parameters, highlighting the symmetry in the network.
  • Concerns are raised about the relevance of referring to resonators and center-tapped transformers for students struggling with basic circuit analysis.
  • Participants discuss the implications of a zero voltage condition across one inductor and its significance for simplifying the problem.
  • There is a debate about the interpretation of the unknown impedance, with some assuming it to be a pure resistance while others question this assumption.
  • Clarifications are sought regarding the schematic and the values of the inductors, suggesting potential discrepancies in the problem setup.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the best approach to solve the problem. There are competing views on the applicability of Kirchhoff's laws, the use of superposition, and the interpretation of the unknown impedance.

Contextual Notes

Some participants note that the problem statement may not clearly define the nature of the unknown impedance, leading to different interpretations. Additionally, there are discussions about the complexity of the circuit analysis and the potential for error in using Kirchhoff's laws.

  • #31
I have a broad-band solution, where the load is a voltage source, the negative, (or a 180° phase shift), of the input voltage.
I have a narrow-band solution, where the load is simply an equal but negative inductance.
I await the KL solution.
 
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  • #32
Baluncore said:
I have a broad-band solution, where the load is a voltage source, the negative, (or a 180° phase shift), of the input voltage.
I have a narrow-band solution, where the load is simply an equal but negative inductance.
I await the KL solution.
By "negative inductance" do you mean capacitance? What is the negative inductance "equal" to? Do you have an expression for it at some particular frequency, or an expression involving frequency as a variable?

Show us some details of the solution.
 
  • #33
Baluncore said:
I await the KL solution
What's KL? Kirchhoff's Laws?

The phase inversion you are stipulating is only valid for a specific load impedance that makes the L2 voltage zero. Otherwise it's a mess.

Here's my worksheet. Once I started with the Z parameters, I didn't check the results very carefully, so there could be a mistake in the algebra. Also I haven't included the rough sketches of the network under the various Z-parameter conditions (I1=0, I2=0, etc.), ask if you need to see those; I'll throw something together. Frankly, I have lost interest at this point. The original question about that specific load is easy, the general solution for any load is hard to simplify, and not the way real EEs would have to solve this.
 

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  • #34
The Electrician said:
By "negative inductance" do you mean capacitance? What is the negative inductance "equal" to? Do you have an expression for it at some particular frequency, or an expression involving frequency as a variable?
Yes. Negative inductance, has negative reactance that makes it a capacitance.

Since L1 is connected between the zero impedance source, and the load, I just wondered what would happen if the load canceled all of L1. When I tried it with -L1, I found a deep null, so I transformed the -L into +C at the frequency of the null, but made a numerical error and got a +C causing a deep null at a different frequency. Fixing the numerical value put the null back in place, revealing that for a point frequency, the load solution would probably be a pure capacitance.
I was expecting that a KL solution would produce that equation.

Now I am also left wanting to know what that frequency to capacitance relationship is, and if there are bounds to the range of frequency that might hide the relationship in a complexity. I do expect it will be a simple frequency transformation, when I have time to look at it.

And yes, KL is Kirchoff's Laws, KVL & KIL.
 
  • #35
Since the voltage across L2 is zero, the current in L2 is also zero. Since the junction of C1 and C2 is at zero volts, the voltage across each capacitor individually must be the same. That's where symmetry comes in. Obviously the voltage across C1 is just V1, the supply voltage. So the voltage across C2 must be -V1 in order that the voltage at the junction be zero. So we reason like this:
L2volts.png


Pick a frequency and get values for the two impedances, evaluate the expression and get the impedance of a capacitor.
 
  • #36
A full bore nodal analysis could also be done. Pick a frequency and evaluate the expresion for ZL and get the impedance of a capacitor. It also just so happens that value of ZL = infinity is a solution.
This all assumes the the voltage V1 is 1 volt RMS.
L2voltsNodal.png

The very last line above should say that the ZL port voltage equals -V1.
 

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