Are Men Truly Happier Than Women Due to Societal and Biological Differences?

[Moonbear]

Here's an example that I've been thinking about for a long time.
I was talking with my best friend's fiance. Somehow the topic of the age old question, "Do I look fat in this?" came up. I told her that if a woman asked me that I would tell her my honest opinion. She looked at me like I had three eyes and said something like, "You'll ostracise yourself if you talk like that." I can definitely see how she is right.

My logic goes like this. Honesty is something I believe in, especially with someone who I love and trust. I should tell the truth. If the truth is something that would hurt her this is an undesirable result. I think about Compassion. The compassionate thing to do would be to say something that would not offend her. I think about how to come up with an answer without sacraficing one virtue over another. I think it is odd that virtues would conflict with each other and wonder where this tension is coming from. Then it strikes me that the question is vain. Honesty and Compassion are not struggling against each other. They are struggling against Vanity. So then I decide the compassionate thing to do would be to tell the truth and remove the vanity.

We'd get along well. I believe that if you don't want an honest answer, don't ask the question. (Then again, the really tempting and tactless answer to that age-old question is, "No, that outfit doesn't make you look fat, your big butt does." ) I get annoyed if I get the pat answer, "You look great just the way you are." But I've been told I'm unusual for this quality, because I really don't get upset if someone gives me the honest answer. I might feel stung for a bit if it's a hurtful answer (sometimes the truth does hurt), but I recover, and feel it's more important to be honest in a relationship than to just say whatever will placate the other person (there's also a bit of the underlying threat that I will find out if you lied to me, and then it will be 10 times worse than if you told the truth in the first place).

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Huck, as far as the honesty goes, women do like it you just have to be careful how you say it. I had a girlfriend who thught I was just being patronizing when ever she asked how she looked in something and I said she looked good. In that case I was being honest, I really did think she looked wonderful all the time no matter what, but she actually did want a critical response.

 

[Huckleberry]

We'd get along well. I believe that if you don't want an honest answer, don't ask the question. (Then again, the really tempting and tactless answer to that age-old question is, "No, that outfit doesn't make you look fat, your big butt does." ) I get annoyed if I get the pat answer, "You look great just the way you are." But I've been told I'm unusual for this quality, because I really don't get upset if someone gives me the honest answer. I might feel stung for a bit if it's a hurtful answer (sometimes the truth does hurt), but I recover, and feel it's more important to be honest in a relationship than to just say whatever will placate the other person (there's also a bit of the underlying threat that I will find out if you lied to me, and then it will be 10 times worse than if you told the truth in the first place).

Yeah, I sometimes try to dress things up with humor to take the edge off. I'm usually very sensitive to others feelings. So I get hurt no matter what I say when a question like that is asked. The whole virtue/superego thing is a protective mechanism for me that I, of course, developed as a child. I realize that it is not an ideal system, but I don't have a better one yet. I consider the value of virtue to be greater than my own life. This is bound to cause internal conflict, yet I enjoy the benefits too. I would like a way that I can hold virtue in high regard and not suffer greatly for it. I haven't found that yet.

I've already realized that your pretty special Moonbear That's not very difficult to see.

 

[Moonbear]

Yeah, I sometimes try to dress things up with humor to take the edge off. I'm usually very sensitive to others feelings. So I get hurt no matter what I say when a question like that is asked. The whole virtue/superego thing is a protective mechanism for me that I, of course, developed as a child. I realize that it is not an ideal system, but I don't have a better one yet. I consider the value of virtue to be greater than my own life. This is bound to cause internal conflict, yet I enjoy the benefits too. I would like a way that I can hold virtue in high regard and not suffer greatly for it. I haven't found that yet.

One of my ex-boyfriends (that long-term one) was good at finding just the right answer. If I asked him something that he thought was a "trap," he'd just tell me, "I'm going to get in trouble no matter what answer I give to that." It worked, because then I'd insist that was good reason to give the truthful answer, and I'd get it because then he knew I wasn't going to bite his head off for it.

I've already realized that your pretty special Moonbear That's not very difficult to see.

:shy: Thanks.

 

[Huckleberry]

YW

Zooby must be cookin' up something good on this one. I hope it digests well.

 

[Moonbear]

YW

Zooby must be cookin' up something good on this one. I hope it digests well.

Zooby's cooking? Looks like he left for the night (his green light went out).

 

[Huckleberry]

Zooby's cooking? Looks like he left for the night (his green light went out).

And I thought he was a good listener. He went and fell asleep while I was talking to him. That's it, no second date for zoobie.

Speaking of which. It's getting late here too. I think it's bedtime for Bonzo.

 

[Moonbear]

And I thought he was a good listener. He went and fell asleep while I was talking to him. That's it, no second date for zoobie.

Speaking of which. It's getting late here too. I think it's bedtime for Bonzo.

Me too. I've already dragged the laptop into bed with me, but now it's time to actually go to sleep. Goodnight and hope you have some good dreams worthy of amusing interpretation!

 

[cronxeh]

hmm so I am not the only one who has a laptop in bed with me..

interesting. i also put the headphones on and go to sleep with laptop next to me and playing trance streams..

 

[zoobyshoe]

Zooby must be cookin' up something good on this one. I hope it digests well.

Funny thing. I actually thought you all had gone away last night. Today I find several posts here that the PF e-mail never told me about.

Anyway, Huck, I know exactly what you mean about the fat pants, and that sort of thing. It has taken me considerable time to figure out what is probably behind this, and it isn't really vanity. Women's concern about their appearance is, I think, a kind of natural necessity with evolutionary underpinnings.

Don't know if you've read the Mars/Venus book, but I found it to be very insightful. It explained a lot of things to me about women that I would never have figured out on my own.

I never meant to suggest you feign interest. What I meant to point out is that listening is the best way to effectively communicate interest.

 

[Evo]

hmm so I am not the only one who has a laptop in bed with me..

I also have a laptop in bed with me. It doesn't snore, doesn't care what the temperature is (I like it cool), it doesn't hog the covers and my sneezing and nose blowing doesn't keep it awake at night.

 

[zoobyshoe]

...and my sneezing and nose blowing doesn't keep it awake at night.

Cocaine's a tough road, Evo.

 

[Huckleberry]

Anyway, Huck, I know exactly what you mean about the fat pants, and that sort of thing. It has taken me considerable time to figure out what is probably behind this, and it isn't really vanity. Women's concern about their appearance is, I think, a kind of natural necessity with evolutionary underpinnings.

I see it more as a circle. Evolution forms society and society then forms evolution. I also consider the option that vanity is a natural necessity. All of the virtues that we associate with negative aspects (or vices as some may call them) are an important part of human evolution. Without a cause of struggle there is no necessity for change and thus no evolution. So I still see vanity as the cause of tension in the 'fat pants' question. I'm open to alternatives but expect that it will take years before I change my opinion because it took years to form.

Don't know if you've read the Mars/Venus book, but I found it to be very insightful. It explained a lot of things to me about women that I would never have figured out on my own.

Another one to put on my must read list. I really should get back to trying to finish that.

I never meant to suggest you feign interest. What I meant to point out is that listening is the best way to effectively communicate interest.

I think most guys know this, which is why many feign interest in conversations that do not interest them. Even if I was interested in the woman I would at first try to be patient. If she is yaking my ear off without regards to my interests then I would attempt to change the subject, or suggest another activity. Then I might feign interest in the conversation, but I'd quickly become impatient. Soon I would just tell her straight out that I'd rather do something else than continue to talk about this subject.

Hmm, maybe if I find myself not interested in much of what a woman has to say then I am interested in that woman for the wrong reasons. I'm not much of a talker anyway. (but I can write all day)

 

[zoobyshoe]

I see it more as a circle. Evolution forms society and society then forms evolution.

The evolutionary bottom line is that if a man isn't sexually exited no sex act is going to take place. (No genes will be transferred to the next generation.) Women know this and are always trying to figure out what men like. I translate the question about pants to mean "Do you still find me attractive?"

I met a woman here, couple three months ago, and she said something to the effect that, as soon as a woman loses her virginity she is in competition with all other women for men. That being the case women never believe anything any other woman tells them about how they look. They're always trying to figure out non-obvious ways to find out what men think. The pants quetion should be translated as fishing for reassurance, rather than vanity.

If she is yaking my ear off without regards to my interests then I would attempt to change the subject, or suggest another activity.

Women yak non-stop mostly to vent. Guys sometimes do it in the mistaken belief it is like pouring more and more mojo into her, hypnotizing her. It usually ends up driving her away.

Hmm, maybe if I find myself not interested in much of what a woman has to say then I am interested in that woman for the wrong reasons.

Yeah, if every conversation ends up with her venting and you listening, it's pointless to stick around.

 

[Huckleberry]

The evolutionary bottom line is that if a man isn't sexually exited no sex act is going to take place. (No genes will be transferred to the next generation.) Women know this and are always trying to figure out what men like. I translate the question about pants to mean "Do you still find me attractive?"

I've never been satisfied with the concept that evolution encapsulates my individuality. Physically attractive women are more likely to attract a man. What qualifies as attractive varies from one person to another. (already a thread on this one elsewhere) For me, this is initially important, but the more I come to know a woman the less important it becomes. The transition can happen in seconds. Physical attraction doesn't hold any influence on maintaining a relationship for me. And I find that the more I come to know a woman the more attractive she becomes. And if I can't find an emotional connection with an attractive woman she becomes much less desirable to me.

I see a huge difference between the phrases "Does my butt look fat in these pants?" and "Do you still find me attractive?" The first one causes me tension and harm either way I answer it. Even if her butt does not appear fat to me and I can answer the question positively and honestly I still feel like I have been used to prop up her self-esteem and the question has nothing to do with how I feel about her. The second one I can answer honestly and with pleasure because it is an honest question. The first question is actually asking how attractive she appears to the rest of the world. The second one is asking exactly what it states.

Women yak non-stop mostly to vent. Guys sometimes do it in the mistaken belief it is like pouring more and more mojo into her, hypnotizing her. It usually ends up driving her away.

Venting is okay with me. Not every day of course, but I've always got a sympathetic ear for venting. She might be yaking about how she folds her laundry or the types of birds that visit her backyard, but if I recognize that venting is the purpose then that is interesting to me.

There are times where talking about the weather is just fine. Sometimes when I'm around someone who's company I enjoy (male or female) it's nice to just enjoy their company and it doesn't matter what is said. With a woman there sometimes feels like there is a need to make conversation, but nothing comes to mind at the moment. I can recognize that too and some talk about shoe inserts is just fine. I usually look for the motivation behind the words and not so much at the words themselves.

edit- Another, more likely option just occurred to me. A woman's attractiveness is not only important for attracting men. The way women are viewed in society her attractiveness affects the way people perceive her, even other women. When she asks her male companion "Do I look fat in these pants?" she may very well be asking how she appears to the rest of the world. She is asking someone she loves and trusts what other people think of her. I still think its a loaded question and I would much rather answer the honest question, but I can understand that she might feel embarrassed. Doesn't seem 100% trustful to ask such a question, but people can die of embarrassment, so I guess it is understandable.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I've never been satisfied with the concept that evolution encapsulates my individuality.

No progeny for you!

Physically attractive women are more likely to attract a man...
... And if I can't find an emotional connection with an attractive woman she becomes much less desirable to me.

You're talking about relationships. All the genes need to be passed on is...obvious.

I see a huge difference between the phrases "Does my butt look fat in these pants?" and "Do you still find me attractive?"

There would be if you asked the quetion, but women have different thought processes. This is further explained in Mars/Venus.

The way women are viewed in society her attractiveness affects the way people perceive her, even other women. When she asks her male companion "Do I look fat in these pants?" she may very well be asking how she appears to the rest of the world. She is asking someone she loves and trusts what other people think of her.

Yup. Feeling skittish about going out into public. Needs
reassurance. You are absolutely right about there being no right answer in this case, because it is impossible for you to give any guarrantees about how anyone else will view her. That being the case, you feel it's unfair of her to ask, as if you could possibly know what everyone else will think.

 

[icvotria]

This fat butt thing is winding me up a bit. There's absolutely no way in hell I'd ever ask anyone that, it would make me feel weak and ashamed. I feel that it's wrong for people to judge others by their appearence and hence that it's also wrong to expect other people to judge you by your appearence. And if you actually have a fat butt, then that's your butt and you should learn to live with it. I hate the way it's expected of women to make themselves look prettier than they really are, with make-up and fake tans and hair bleach and butt-diminishing trousers and all the rest.

 

[Evo]

This fat butt thing is winding me up a bit. There's absolutely no way in hell I'd ever ask anyone that, it would make me feel weak and ashamed. I feel that it's wrong for people to judge others by their appearence and hence that it's also wrong to expect other people to judge you by your appearence. And if you actually have a fat butt, then that's your butt and you should learn to live with it. I hate the way it's expected of women to make themselves look prettier than they really are, with make-up and fake tans and hair bleach and butt-diminishing trousers and all the rest.

Yay icvotria. I've always been cylinder shaped - no butt, no hips, no waist. My waist measurement is almost the same size as my hip measurement (never had hips or a butt), so I have never had that "hourglass" shape. My first husband once asked me how I kept my pants from falling off.

 

[Huckleberry]

I've never been satisfied with the concept that evolution encapsulates my individuality.

No progeny for you!

This certainly seems to be the trend I'm setting for myself lately, but I think it's more of a matter of getting my life straightened out and finding the right woman. I'm interested in how you draw this conclusion.

Physically attractive women are more likely to attract a man...
... And if I can't find an emotional connection with an attractive woman she becomes much less desirable to me.

You're talking about relationships. All the genes need to be passed on is...obvious.

Obviously all that is required to reproduce is sex between a man and woman. I think a relationship is a pretty important part of having a child. There are attractive women that I wouldn't even look twice at because I just don't like them. The thought of having a child with the Trim Spa woman is repulsive to me.

I see a huge difference between the phrases "Does my butt look fat in these pants?" and "Do you still find me attractive?"

There would be if you asked the quetion, but women have different thought processes. This is further explained in Mars/Venus.

What are the thought processes of a woman on this matter? There's got to be some around here that would help answer this quetion.

edit- Is there a change in the roles of the sexes currently underway? Hmm, maybe a topic for a new thread?

 

[Moonbear]

Yay icvotria. I've always been cylinder shaped - no butt, no hips, no waist. My waist measurement is almost the same size as my hip measurement (never had hips or a butt), so I have never had that "hourglass" shape. My first husband once asked me how I kept my pants from falling off.

Does that mean you can fit those pants they sell in most stores? I keep wondering who fits them since they seem to have the waist and hips cut about the same size, when most women have thinner waists than hips. I expect to have less of a difference between waist and hip sizes in the junior or misses depts, but in women's clothing, surely someone could figure out that the waist should be tapered.

Anyway, I agree with you and icvotria, I'd never ask anyone if my butt looked fat in anything! The only time I put a guy on the spot about clothing was when he was the only one around to ask and I realized the blouse I had brought along to wear out was more sheer than I expected and I didn't have a camisole, so I asked if it was really obvious you could see my bra through the blouse (I honestly couldn't tell if it was visible or not). He answered something like, "no worse than anyone else walking around NY." No help at all. I took that answer to mean yes, but he wasn't going to complain about it, so I told him if I got too many stares, I was going to steal his jacket, and we headed out to dinner. It would have been quite a hassle to find another appropriate outfit.

 

[Evo]

Does that mean you can fit those pants they sell in most stores? I keep wondering who fits them since they seem to have the waist and hips cut about the same size, when most women have thinner waists than hips. I expect to have less of a difference between waist and hip sizes in the junior or misses depts, but in women's clothing, surely someone could figure out that the waist should be tapered.

No, if I buy a pair of pants to fit my waist, the hips and legs are so big, they look like clown pants. Then I'm at that odd height at the max range for petite and minimum for average (5'3"-5'4"), but very long legs and shortwaisted. So, the waist comes up under my armpits and the pant legs look like I'm ready to wade through high water. Liz Claiborne is the only line of clothing I've found that doesn't make me look like a freak.

 

[Gale]

hmmm... well, I'm glad you guys are so confident and secure about your bodies. i don't know if i do the pants thing... but I'm sure i say things similar... usually i probably make definitive statements though, like "i look gross in this shirt," or something... its definately an insecurity thing. I'm seeing this guy now, and he insists that i have a great body... i just never believe him though. i think he's just trying to be nice. if he says something like, "you look nice today," he usually gets annoyed at me cause i don't believe him, and i question him, and i get all stupid. usually i either act totally insecure, or i fake that I'm really hot.

 

[Moonbear]

No, if I buy a pair of pants to fit my waist, the hips and legs are so big, they look like clown pants. Then I'm at that odd height at the max range for petite and minimum for average (5'3"-5'4"), but very long legs and shortwaisted. So, the waist comes up under my armpits and the pant legs look like I'm ready to wade through high water. Liz Claiborne is the only line of clothing I've found that doesn't make me look like a freak.

Well, then I'm still boggled over just who fits those pants. I'd really like to see what shape the woman is that those are cut for!

I'm not much better off with the length either. Even petite pants can be too long for me, or other times they are too short. I always have to hem pants. I try to avoid ones that come with cuffs because I always screw those up when hemming (or like one pair, they get redesigned to not have cuffs when I mismeasure). I think I need a good seamstress to custom tailor my clothes.

 

[Moonbear]

hmmm... well, I'm glad you guys are so confident and secure about your bodies. i don't know if i do the pants thing... but I'm sure i say things similar... usually i probably make definitive statements though, like "i look gross in this shirt," or something... its definately an insecurity thing. I'm seeing this guy now, and he insists that i have a great body... i just never believe him though. i think he's just trying to be nice. if he says something like, "you look nice today," he usually gets annoyed at me cause i don't believe him, and i question him, and i get all stupid. usually i either act totally insecure, or i fake that I'm really hot.

Hey, you're just you. No reason to be unhappy with it. We've seen your face, with and without the pillow , and you are a very pretty young lady. If a guy compliments you, the appropriate answer is, "Thank you." Everyone has some good features/traits and some bad features/traits, and the trick is to find someone who finds even the bad features attractive (or at least endearing). If you see enough people risk their lives with eating disorders or cosmetic surgery just for appearances, you realize it's a lot easier to just accept yourself the way you are.

 

[zoobyshoe]

i don't know if i do the pants thing... but I'm sure i say things similar... usually i probably make definitive statements though, like "i look gross in this shirt," or something... its definately an insecurity thing.

This is what I'm trying to tell Huck. It's insecurity. There must be some evolutionary advantage to it or it would have been bred out of the human race a long time ago.

 

[Moonbear]

This is what I'm trying to tell Huck. It's insecurity. There must be some evolutionary advantage to it or it would have been bred out of the human race a long time ago.

Nope, doesn't have to be any advantage, as long as it isn't a disadvantage.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I hate the way it's expected of women to make themselves look prettier than they really are, with make-up and fake tans and hair bleach and butt-diminishing trousers and all the rest.

This could have been said by 95% of the women I went to college with, back in the days when feminism was at its peak.

Where in hell did they all go?

 

[zoobyshoe]

Nope, doesn't have to be any advantage, as long as it isn't a disadvantage.

Correction, then:

There must not be anything disadvantageous about it, otherwise it would have been bred out of the human race long ago.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The pants thing is certainly in the jeans.

 

[Huckleberry]

This is what I'm trying to tell Huck. It's insecurity. There must be some evolutionary advantage to it or it would have been bred out of the human race a long time ago.

I've been watching and taking notes.

edit- What explanation could there be for a genetic disposition for insecurity of appearance in women?