Art Atlantis' Existence and Place On Earth

[DaveC426913]

doesnt

Thx.

 

[hamster143]

There is abundant proof that there was no such thing as a great flood, at least not in the calibrated part of carbon dating, where we find continuous uninterrupted annual processes in which the years can be counted.

There is abundant proof that the great flood did not happen exactly as described in the document (submerging the entire planet except for the top of mount Ararat in a few weeks of continuous rains).

There is literary as well as archeological evidence of heavy flooding in Sumer circa 2900 BC, which devastated some cities and managed to leave sediments from Uruk to Kish (about 200 km away from each other). And there is a direct connection between Sumerian flood myths and Biblical flood myths, which draws a parallel between the king of one of the destroyed Sumerian cities and Noah.

 

[FlexGunship]

There is literary as well as archeological evidence of heavy flooding in Sumer circa 2900 BC, which devastated some cities and managed to leave sediments from Uruk to Kish (about 200 km away from each other). And there is a direct connection between Sumerian flood myths and Biblical flood myths, which draws a parallel between the king of one of the destroyed Sumerian cities and Noah.

The guy who gathered all of his livestock onto a raft and floated to safety was named Ziasudra.

 

[Andre]

Not sure you can prove something did not happen. I mean, I grant that carbon dating evidence can put some heavy constraints on it, but still...

I've read more than one story where the Great Flood was, in fact, the filling of a formerly dry lowlands area with what is, in present day, a body of water.

One story suggests that the Black Sea was once a dry valley before the Mediterranean flooded it by way of the Sea of Marmara. Another more fanciful story suggests that, prehistorically, the entire Mediterranean was once dry land until Gibraltar gave way.

These would not show up in the aforementioned land-based records.

Well, I was not excluding local floods for sure. The black sea story has been challenged http://www.ad-astra.ro/research/view_publication.php?publication_id=6840&lang=en , probably not a lot of witnesses

But practically the past has some uncertainties too

Maybe that the biggest flood ever happened 55 million years ago.

 

[FlexGunship]

[Post deleted by author; off-topic]

 

[mugaliens]

Oh! WHO grobbied my post after I spent an hour on it..!

argh...

I actually had something inciteful to say, as I always do.

Eh, so sad.

 

[DaveC426913]

Well, I was not excluding local floods for sure.

Back then, that locality was the whole world.

the http://www.allheadlinenews.com/articles/7017221592?Scientists:%20Huge%20Flood%205.3%20Million%20Years%20Ago%20Created%20Mediterranean%20Sea , probably not a lot of witnesses

The fanciful story I read had Neanderthals as the witnesses. That's still off by about 5.2 million years though...

 

[Andre]

There have been many 'local' floods of course. Here is an interesting overview of flood saga's through the world. Interesting is the Greek version Deucalion is mentioned by Plato in the Critias in the story about Atlantis.

I used it in the https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=270543&highlight=deucalion&page=283 .

Other "great floods" that occurred at the beginning of the Holocene, apart from http://www.glaciallakemissoula.org/virtualtour/index.html and https://www.dmr.nd.gov/ndgs/ndnotes/Agassiz/Lake%20Agassiz.asp in North America and end of the last Glacial is the North Sea between the UK and the Netherlands. Hence there is also an Atlantis version for the Netherlands, the Oera Linda book, wiki here. It's assessed to be a fantasy forgery by a famous nineteenth century author, Piet Paaltjens, however odd detail is that the http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1468-0092.2009.00326.x/abstract was unknown at his time.

Bottom line the Atlantis tales of Plato give a lot of reason to unfounded speculations but it's likely that he just wanted to make a point about nature forces prevailing over humans.

 

[FlexGunship]

Oh! WHO grobbied my post after I spent an hour on it..!

argh...

I actually had something inciteful to say, as I always do.

Eh, so sad.

It happens [STRIKE]suspiciously[/STRIKE] surprisingly often.

 

[FlexGunship]

This is a red herring. Some people having their own reasons to believe something does not detract from its truthhood.

Maybe, but doesn't it bias it? If I have personal reasons for believing in ghosts, aren't I more likely to give you a positive "ghost report" than someone who doesn't have that same personal reason?

The conversation you quoted followed this form:

Me: "Why does myth-A get such special attention."
Other: "Myth-B (sic. Biblical) gets the same amount of attention."
Me: "Yes, but those myth-B is part of a personal belief system, whereas myth-A is not."
You: "Regardless of belief system, it may be true."

I don't think my statement was a red herring, I believe your's was a non-sequitur (most likely because of a previous "out-of-context" quotation). We were not discussing the veracity of claims, simply why certain ones seem to get more attention than others.

 

[Driftwood1]

Solon.

Wasn't Solon the first to introduce a form of Democracy into Athenian political and social life?

Interesting

 

[DaveC426913]

Maybe, but doesn't it bias it? If I have personal reasons for believing in ghosts, aren't I more likely to give you a positive "ghost report" than someone who doesn't have that same personal reason?

The conversation you quoted followed this form:

Me: "Why does myth-A get such special attention."
Other: "Myth-B (sic. Biblical) gets the same amount of attention."
Me: "Yes, but those myth-B is part of a personal belief system, whereas myth-A is not."
You: "Regardless of belief system, it may be true."

I don't think my statement was a red herring, I believe your's was a non-sequitur (most likely because of a previous "out-of-context" quotation). We were not discussing the veracity of claims, simply why certain ones seem to get more attention than others.

Poisoning the well.

Discussion of veracity is the very next step on your line of reasoning:
'...and because beliefs are a large factor in its popularity, compelling evidence is less a factor in its popularity, therefore less likely to be true'.
Even if that is not actually stated outright, it is what goes through every reader's mind.

 

[mugaliens]

Poisoning the well.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well" .

 

[nismaratwork]

There is abundant proof that the great flood did not happen exactly as described in the document (submerging the entire planet except for the top of mount Ararat in a few weeks of continuous rains).

There is literary as well as archeological evidence of heavy flooding in Sumer circa 2900 BC, which devastated some cities and managed to leave sediments from Uruk to Kish (about 200 km away from each other). And there is a direct connection between Sumerian flood myths and Biblical flood myths, which draws a parallel between the king of one of the destroyed Sumerian cities and Noah.

Small correction... it doesn't really say, "on Mt. Ararat", what it says is that the ark, "...Came to rest amidst the mountains of Ararat, "or, "...Came to rest on the mountains of Ararat." Ararat at the supposed time is roughly equivalent to modern Armenia.

The "Mountains of Ararat" in Genesis clearly refer to a general region, not a specific mountain. Biblical Ararat corresponds to Assyrian Urartu (and Persian Arminya) the name of the kingdom which at the time controlled the Lake Van region, which in later centuries, beginning with Herodotus, came to be known as Armenia.

It's just another example of how people twist around even the smallest parts of what is clearly a parable to suit their needs (not you). An expedition to the modern-day mount ararat is... dumb, but it's been done for centuries. Likewise, non-religious stories and traditions keep popping up, with the "lost civilization" being one of the most common, and specifically, "Civilization lost to flood" being a biggie. Others are:

lost Golden City or Temple
Buried City
Fountain of youth
The existence of a realm of giants (when you count Chinese mythology it becomes VAST)
belief in angels or "angelic beings" of some description.
belief in demons or "demonic beings" of some description.

Obviously there are common and recurring human experiences which people the world over interpret in a fairly similar way, with a wild-card... sometimes you get a buried city (Pompeii and a few others).

Atlantis... the idea that a culturally advanced people were wiped out in one of the most complete ways possible (swallowed by the sea is pretty complete) naturally persists through lack of evidence of denial which so often is what people seen to want, and the personal experience that civilizations have had with floods from neolithic times to the present. Nothing destroys and kills like a major flood, and flood is the major means of death and destruction in tropical systems.

 

[DaveC426913]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_the_well" .

That is exactly what I meant. What do you refute?

A discussion about an idea being tied to popular belief is almost surely going to play a hand in any subsequent discussion about the veracity of the claim. That's poisoning the well.

 

[Max™]

Not sure you can prove something did not happen. I mean, I grant that carbon dating evidence can put some heavy constraints on it, but still...

I've read more than one story where the Great Flood was, in fact, the filling of a formerly dry lowlands area with what is, in present day, a body of water.

One story suggests that the Black Sea was once a dry valley before the Mediterranean flooded it by way of the Sea of Marmara. Another more fanciful story suggests that, prehistorically, the entire Mediterranean was once dry land until Gibraltar gave way.

These would not show up in the aforementioned land-based records.

Neither would the area where indonesia sits show up on those records. It was definitely suitable for human habitation, as homo erectus favored the area for most of a million years.


Pretty sure the atlantic ocean was believed to be a ring surrounding the known world, wasn't it? So anyone finding out there was ocean on the other side of india/china wouldn't have a reason to assume it was not the atlantic, would they?

 

[FlexGunship]

That is exactly what I meant. What do you refute?

A discussion about an idea being tied to popular belief is almost surely going to play a hand in any subsequent discussion about the veracity of the claim. That's poisoning the well.

I disagree, Dave. There was a real question behind it. Atlantis seems to carry a lot of weight with it. Almost a Biblical amount of weight. However, the only literary reference is in a work of fiction.

The question stands (and it's not rhetorical or facetious): why does the Atlantis myth carry such weight?

(Edit: The other side of this is: we know why Biblical stories carry so much weight. Not because they seem to have a significant amount of truth or falsity (I'm not passing judgement on the veracity of Biblical stories), but because they are part of a core belief system of a group of people. Is Atlantis similar in this respect?)

 

[nismaratwork]

I disagree, Dave. There was a real question behind it. Atlantis seems to carry a lot of weight with it. Almost a Biblical amount of weight. However, the only literary reference is in a work of fiction.

The question stands (and it's not rhetorical or facetious): why does the Atlantis myth carry such weight?

(Edit: The other side of this is: we know why Biblical stories carry so much weight. Not because they seem to have a significant amount of truth or falsity (I'm not passing judgement on the veracity of Biblical stories), but because they are part of a core belief system of a group of people. Is Atlantis similar in this respect?)

I'd just say because it isn't unique... like Lemuria the concept of a lost land under the water is a recurring theme... in the west we're concerned with the work of fiction concerning Atlantis, but the same isn't true for every culture.

 

[Studiot]

Perhaps in 13000 years time Pphysics Forums will be debating the placement of Brobdingnag and Lilliput.

And one fellow will say "There was only one person in literature that wrote about it"

Of course some archeologists will dig up video of G's travels as proof


...

 

[FlexGunship]

Perhaps in 13000 years time Pphysics Forums will be debating the placement of Brobdingnag and Lilliput.

And one fellow will say "There was only one person in literature that wrote about it"

I'm that fellow!

Besides, the long lost city of New York is a perfect match for Lilliput.

 

[PolarisNorth]

I'm not sure if Atlantis existed, but I am sure it is very possible for a large amount of land to become submerged in large bodies of water over time, because we have evidence of that right now. So it is possible for a once-inhabited land to be underwater.
It would be great if one day we could see Atlantis.

 

[Andre]

Obviously talking Atlantis, part of the discussion could always be the now almost again forgotten lost City in Cuba

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=6347
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=38797

Must be sad to be forgotten twice.

 

[nismaratwork]

I'm not sure if Atlantis existed, but I am sure it is very possible for a large amount of land to become submerged in large bodies of water over time, because we have evidence of that right now. So it is possible for a once-inhabited land to be underwater.
It would be great if one day we could see Atlantis.

A populated region being destroyed by flood or otherwise drowned is not unique, but the legend of Atlantis is really about the city being somehow advanced. Otherwise, it's like biblical flood stories...

edit: Herculaneum and Pompeii spring to mind as other "lost" cities... and the tombs of The Valley of The Kings in Egypt... etc...

Atlantis isn't just a lost place, it's a lost "special" place that in the minds of many is somehow mystical or nearly sci-fi.

 

[PolarisNorth]

A populated region being destroyed by flood or otherwise drowned is not unique, but the legend of Atlantis is really about the city being somehow advanced. Otherwise, it's like biblical flood stories...

edit: Herculaneum and Pompeii spring to mind as other "lost" cities... and the tombs of The Valley of The Kings in Egypt... etc...

Atlantis isn't just a lost place, it's a lost "special" place that in the minds of many is somehow mystical or nearly sci-fi.

What I was referring to about the general information was that, even without the fact that Atlantis was believed to be mystically advanced, it would be possible for a city named Atlantis to have existed as an inhabited land that sunk. The type of technology and intelligence they harbored, that was the "I'm not sure" part.

Anyhow, yes indeed Atlantis is mysterious and interesting so it would be great if somehow we could discover proof that it existed, while I'm still alive.

 

[DaveC426913]

What I was referring to about the general information was that, even without the fact that Atlantis was believed to be mystically advanced, it would be possible for a city named Atlantis to have existed as an inhabited land that sunk. The type of technology and intelligence they harbored, that was the "I'm not sure" part.

Anyhow, yes indeed Atlantis is mysterious and interesting so it would be great if somehow we could discover proof that it existed, while I'm still alive.

I often wonder how many decades or even centuries civilization was set back from the burning of the library of Alexandria...

 

[nismaratwork]

I often wonder how many decades or even centuries civilization was set back from the burning of the library of Alexandria...

... And how many Mozarts, Hilberts, Twains, Ghandis, or Einsteins died of malaria or in childbirth? I personally think it's amazing, if unfortunate for us in the long run, that we've come this far. When you consider the Black Death in Europe, and other population bottlenecks... this is very impressive, and probably makes the destruction of the library seem trifling.

 

[DaveC426913]

... And how many Mozarts, Hilberts, Twains, Ghandis, or Einsteins died of malaria or in childbirth? I personally think it's amazing, if unfortunate for us in the long run, that we've come this far. When you consider the Black Death in Europe, and other population bottlenecks... this is very impressive, and probably makes the destruction of the library seem trifling.

Well I as thinking of the burning as a human-instigated*, preventable accident, as opposed to ... life happening.

*I'd always thought it was burned deliberately, but apparently that's only one of several theories.

 

[Studiot]

Dave, about the library at Alex, it's time I fessed up, I only did it because my scrolls were overdue and I didn't want to pay the fine - honest.

 

[DaveC426913]

Dave, about the library at Alex, it's time I fessed up, I only did it because my scrolls were overdue and I didn't want to pay the fine - honest.

Well, after 2260 years, that fine is now $82,490.00 per scroll. You're not making it any easier on yourself by procrastinating.

 

[nismaratwork]

Well, after 2260 years, that fine is now $82,490.00 per scroll. You're not making it any easier on yourself by procrastinating.

I'm also fairly sure that the penalty for a common thief in that place and time was to have the soles of the feet beaten, then flayed on the second offense. How many scrolls do you have Studiot *sound of steel on a whetstone*?

 

[Studiot]

I also have a good collection of unknown picassos, vangoghs, trechikoffs, michaelangelos...

 

[nismaratwork]

I also have a good collection of unknown picassos, vangoghs, trechikoffs, michaelangelos...

I've got a Maltese Falcon for trade if you're interested... guaranteed GENUINE too!

"Never get personally involved with a client. It’s written in large capital letters on page one of How to Be a Private Detective. Right next to Get as much cash as you can up front, just in case the cheque bounces, and Don’t go looking for the Maltese Falcon because it’ll all end in tears." (Simon R. Green's John Taylor character)

 

[Studiot]

Maltese Falcon

I bought one of these off the same guy who sold me a piece of the orignal cross ( that was guaranteed genuine too) but it flew away.

 

[nismaratwork]

I bought one of these off the same guy who sold me a piece of the orignal cross ( that was guaranteed genuine too) but it flew away.

They do that sometimes, but you're alive to talk about it and you have that piece of 'The Cross' so you should be just fine! I'm off to spend a small fortune on the tip of the Lance of Longinus!

 

[klimatos]

Atlantis is probably as real as Troy or Sodom & Gomorrah...

Troy is quite real, has been excavated, and can be visited. There is no scientific consensus on the question of whether Sodom and Gomorrah are real or mythical. There is certainly no archeological consensus tying them to any present geographical location.

There has been much speculation on the possible location of Atlantis and whether it was real or fabulous. Some of this speculation has been by reputable scholars and some has been by certifiable crackpots. It is, at best, still speculation.

 

[dantenewton]

Plato is a philosopher, and sometimes he did went overboard. 'Atlantis' is probably apocryphal. Hitler thought that Aryans were the descendants of Atlantis' natives, so Aryans are viewed as superior (that's chauvinism, and Hitler is saying that because he has nothing to corroborate that Aryans are superior). This induced a lot of misconceptions and feuds.

Also, we are now living a hectic life. Finding and studying Atlantis might be too archaic.

 

[MoonlitFractl]

Meh, it's cool, but all I'm trying to point out is that the possibility is very likely, and leaves a lot to answer itself. But I'm aware the proof is like an empty answer, blank, no better than Sodom and Gomorrah, yet, indeed, verrrry possible.

 

[Nicodemus]

Meh, it's cool, but all I'm trying to point out is that the possibility is very likely, and leaves a lot to answer itself. But I'm aware the proof is like an empty answer, blank, no better than Sodom and Gomorrah, yet, indeed, verrrry possible.

The possiblity of WHAT? I'm still confused.

 

[MoonlitFractl]

Oh. The possibility, that a civilization to be that advanced, several thousand years ago. Atlantis. It would just take a constantly lucid mind and an intense fear of life and death, the willingness to accept everything, and an naturalistic demand for an answer, no matter what that might be. (In other words, the first Atlantains were probably insane, paranoid geniuses, whom became more insane as they kept inventing the tec. theorized by Plato. And due to their tec, they could take over nearly any1. And like any civilization, would fall due to their own human faults.)

Sorry for the confusion, but I thought you already were thinking about it. ^^" (it being atlantis)

 

[Nicodemus]

Oh. The possibility, that a civilization to be that advanced, several thousand years ago. Atlantis. It would just take a constantly lucid mind and an intense fear of life and death, the willingness to accept everything, and an naturalistic demand for an answer, no matter what that might be. (In other words, the first Atlantains were probably insane, paranoid geniuses, whom became more insane as they kept inventing the tec. theorized by Plato. And due to their tec, they could take over nearly any1. And like any civilization, would fall due to their own human faults.)

Sorry for the confusion, but I thought you already were thinking about it. ^^" (it being atlantis)

OK, I see what you're getting at, but why do you believe this based on very meager evidence that is largely considered a fictional source? You're adding a great deal of complexity to the situation, and seem to be taking it as read that it follows logically.

 

[MoonlitFractl]

I see what you mean, I tend to jump the gun when I think, and try to weave it through, letting imagined momentum follow through piece by piece. But I tend to think it through b/c I can imagine a paranoid group of people trying to fix something with just simple knowledge, increasing step by step constantly, working in total fear until a practical result. Invariably, with a little luck and chance, being incredible, much like genius today, playing with an arcane art, and discovering something amazing, fueled by fear and wounder.

Ok, this hopefully unrelated, but I just typed that and accidently opened 14 windows at once, including this one. That, was creepy. *Also I have no clue how I did that.

 

[Nicodemus]

I see what you mean, I tend to jump the gun when I think, and try to weave it through, letting imagined momentum follow through piece by piece. But I tend to think it through b/c I can imagine a paranoid group of people trying to fix something with just simple knowledge, increasing step by step constantly, working in total fear until a practical result. Invariably, with a little luck and chance, being incredible, much like genius today, playing with an arcane art, and discovering something amazing, fueled by fear and wounder.

I can imagine that too, in fact I think we could both find examples in history of just that. I'm still not sure that it's enough to justify the existence of Atlantis, merely because people COULD live in such a way. Frankly, with so much power in their time, and so much strife such as you imagine, I'd think we'd see a record.

By the same token, in many ways your description is valid for our lives today, in oh so many ways. If you're saying that you believe in Atlantis because you can imagine it, I disagree, but if you're saying that the mentality of possible Atlantians would naturally lead to destruction, I can see that being possible.

 

[CEL]

OK, I see what you're getting at, but why do you believe this based on very meager evidence that is largely considered a fictional source? You're adding a great deal of complexity to the situation, and seem to be taking it as read that it follows logically.

According to Plato, Athenians defeated the Atlantean invasion 10 thousand years before Plato's time.
But at that time there were no Athenians (no Greeks at all) and no Egyptian or Mesopotamian civilizations, so no writing except for possible Atlantean documents.
Since no signs remained from Atlantean civilization, how did the Egyptian priests know of it?

 

[granpa]

http://www.maicar.com/GML/Atlantis.html

 

[CEL]

Imagine that 50000 years from now our civilization has ended and alien explorers arrive on Earth.
Those aliens decypher our writings. They find Asimov's Foundation series and believe we have colonized the galaxy. Then they go in search of Trantor.
This is similar to the search of Atlantis, based on Plato.

 

[nismaratwork]

Imagine that 50000 years from now our civilization has ended and alien explorers arrive on Earth.
Those aliens decypher our writings. They find Asimov's Foundation series and believe we have colonized the galaxy. Then they go in search of Trantor.
This is similar to the search of Atlantis, based on Plato.

Hopefully they'd find a little more than that, like our garbage, and our EM emissions (radio, TV, satellite). I think the biggest problem with Atlantis is... where are the Atlantean dumps, wineries, bakers, anything?

If I were those aliens I'd trust vast evidence of other civilization, and the total lack of anything matching Asimov's writings, and conclude that it was an aberration.

 

[Tyrannical]

I noticed quite a few references to this region when I was researching the last ice age for a discussion regarding climate variability in the past.

http://www.atlan.org/articles/true_history/index.html

Kinda makes sense compared to the stuff I've seen in random TV "searches for the lost city of atlantis", what do you think?

I stumbled upon that theory about ten years ago.

What makes it interesting is that we know for a fact that large areas of the South China Sea was dry land, and Indonesia was a contiguous land mass instead of an island chain. That area sunk into the ocean as sea levels rose around the time Plato claimed Atlantis sunk.

Now the glacial melting wasn't a sudden event, but a tsunami caused by a large volcano (Krakatoa? )could have caused a sudden and permanent flooding of land that was already near or below sea level. If you even want to consider this the "Biblical Flood", an erupting undersea caldera could have even provided the 40 days of rain in an area around Indonesia.

Here's a quick check list the author put together comparing Plato's description with Indonesia, and they match on many points.
http://www.atlan.org/articles/checklist/

 

[nismaratwork]

Ummm that link isn't something I'd use as a check-list... or anything else. This isn't a question of the realty that which land masses are above sea-level... it's more to do with the very commonality of that event. The idea that a city could be destroyed is hardly new, and not even controversial! Pompeii and Herculaneum spring to mind, but they weren't magically advanced cultures.

As for the biblical flood, I argue for that as a parable, but others who do like to find concrete elements to support their faith often look at the Black Sea Deluge Theory: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory .

There are all kinds of things wrong the "links" made by that author, but then... when you're selling a book purporting to have found Atlantis, it probably hurts sales to do anything else. I strongly suggest that you read the S&D guidelines regarding what is and is not a legitimate source. Even casually, the link you provide hurts you more than it helps.

 

[berkeman]

<< crackpot 2012 prophecy YouTube link deleted by berkeman >>

there u go...watch that before you delete my post again

I understand that you are new to the PF. Please re-read the rules links, especially the parts about valid sources, and about forbidden topics.

Thank you.

 

[Tyrannical]

Well he passed away a few years ago, and his day job was physics professor. It seemed strictly a hobby and not a money making scheme. The checklist was based on Plato's description.
But don't you find it interesting that such a large area of habitable land was flooded around the time Plato claimed?