Black-body radiation of a parabolic mirror in a vacuum violates thermodynamics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the implications of black-body radiation in the context of a parabolic mirror placed in a vacuum, exploring whether this setup violates the second law of thermodynamics. Participants examine the behavior of the mirror's reflective and blackened surfaces, the nature of radiation emitted, and the potential for thermodynamic equilibrium.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant describes a scenario involving a parabolic mirror with a reflective interior and a blackened exterior, questioning how it could lead to a violation of thermodynamics.
  • Another participant challenges the assumption that black-body radiation from the mirror would be directed in a single direction, asking for clarification on what is meant by "single direction."
  • Some participants note that parabolas reflect light towards specific points, suggesting that while the reflection may be somewhat focused, it is not perfectly so.
  • Concerns are raised about the emissivity of the reflective surface, with one participant stating that the mirror, being 99% reflective, would only emit 1% of the energy of a black body at the same temperature.
  • A hypothetical scenario involving a blackened cap on the parabola is introduced, questioning how such a setup could operate without an energy input and whether the cap would remain cool.
  • Participants discuss Kirchhoff's law of thermal radiation, noting that the coefficients of emissivity and reflectivity should sum to one, which adds complexity to the discussion of energy absorption and emission.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the behavior of the mirror and the implications for thermodynamic principles. There is no consensus on whether the setup violates the second law of thermodynamics, and multiple competing interpretations of the physics involved remain present.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the limitations of their assumptions regarding the behavior of reflective and blackened surfaces, as well as the implications of emissivity and reflectivity in thermal radiation. The discussion does not resolve these complexities.

Norseman
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Preface:
I understand that regardless of any further details, the correct answer is "No, it does not, because..." I'm looking for an answer because clearly I don't understand something about either thermodynamics, mirrors, or black body radiation. In my mind, the scenario I describe follows the rules of black body radiation and mirrors to violate the second law of thermodynamics. This is almost certainly incorrect, so I need someone to tell me what I'm getting wrong.

Scenario:
Imagine you have a 1 meter long and 200 cm wide aluminum parabola with a 99% reflective mirrored surface on the inside. Suppose the outside of the parabola has been blackened by a laser. To keep this mentally simple, let's get rid of convection by placing this mirror in a chamber with a near-perfect vacuum, and let's get rid of conduction by placing the chamber and mirror on the international space station so that the mirror can stay in the middle of the chamber without touching anything. Assuming you don't change the temperature of the chamber, the mirror and chamber should (presumably) reach an equilibrium at room temperature.

Problem:
The mirror will produce black-body radiation. However, most of the black-body radiation emitted from the inside of the parabola will be reflected in a single direction, towards the chamber. This means that the parabola will be emitting directed energy which heats up one side of the chamber. We should be at thermodynamic equilibrium, but we're not. What's going on here?
 
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Norseman said:
However, most of the black-body radiation emitted from the inside of the parabola will be reflected in a single direction, towards the chamber.
How do you know this? By "single direction" you mean a parallel beam?
And why do you think that the back of the mirror does not emit?
 
A parabola can reflect everything coming from one specific direction to a specific point. Everything else will have a focus elsewhere.

If the inside is reflecting in the infrared, it will not emit much radiation (it is "white"). Photons from the chamber walls just hit the chamber walls again, some photons stay at the parabola, some photons are emitted by the parabola. There is nothing special about the shape here.
 
nasu said:
By "single direction" you mean a parallel beam?

No, but a somewhat focused beam. If you imagine a line going from the center of the parabola and extending outward, I think most of the energy would be focused to within 60 degrees of that line.

nasu said:
How do you know this?

Parabolas tend to reflect light away from themselves in mostly the same direction, right?

nasu said:
And why do you think that the back of the mirror does not emit?

I think it would emit at least as much as the mirror. The Stefan-Boltzmann law suggests that temperature and surface area are the only variables which determine the energy released by black-body radiation. It might be the case that the blackened exterior is hotter than the reflective interior, but I think that would mean that the system is not in thermodynamic equilibrium.

The problem is that the mirrored surface is reflective, while the exterior is not. The exterior would be very good at absorbing heat, the interior would be very good at reflecting it. This might create a cycle where heat is absorbed by the exterior of the parabola, then emitted by both the exterior and interior, but focused in a certain direction when it's emitted by the interior.
 
mfb said:
A parabola can reflect everything coming from one specific direction to a specific point. Everything else will have a focus elsewhere.

Right, it wouldn't be precisely focused. But it would be more focused than ordinary.

mfb said:
If the inside is reflecting in the infrared, it will not emit much radiation (it is "white").

If I understand you correctly, this might be the explanation. Are you saying that reflective surfaces tend to emit less radiation, or tend to emit a different spectrum of radiation?
 
If it helps, let's try something that just seems wrong: a perpetual motion device. Imagine you place a blackened cap on the end of the parabola to absorb the heat, and you thoroughly insulate the cap so that it can get quite hot. Then, you use the hot cap to run a heat engine at room temperature without any input of energy. Where would this device fail?

Edit: Intuitively, I'd say that the cap would not get hot at all, but I can't explain why. The mirror would radiate heat and most of it would be reflected to the cap. Most of the heat radiated from the cap to the mirrors would also be reflected back to the cap. How is it possible that the cap would stay cool, or would the device actually heat it up but fail at some other point?
 
Last edited:
Norseman said:
The mirror will produce black-body radiation.
Here is the key mistake. The mirror is (by definition) not a black body and will not produce black-body radiation. In this case, the mirror is 99% reflective, which means that it absorbs only 1% of the energy of a black body at the same temperature and also it emits only 1% of the energy of a black body at the same temperature.
 
DaleSpam said:
Here is the key mistake. The mirror is (by definition) not a black body and will not produce black-body radiation. In this case, the mirror is 99% reflective, which means that it absorbs only 1% of the energy of a black body at the same temperature and also it emits only 1% of the energy of a black body at the same temperature.

True, but the back of the mirror is a black body. Heat would be conducted from the blackened exterior to the reflective interior, right?

Or does the mirror actually emit less energy even if it's at the same temperature?
 
Norseman said:
Or does the mirror actually emit less energy even if it's at the same temperature?
Yes.
 
  • #10
Very cool. While I was waiting for a reply I checked some Wikipedia articles regarding non-black body radiation (it didn't even occur to me to check for that!) and found Kirchhoff's law of thermal radiation, Low emissivity, and Thermal radiation which indicate that for any material, the coefficients of emissivity and reflectivity should add together to equal 1.

Thanks for helping me everyone. :)
 

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