Calculate impedance of a feedback circuit with Blackman's technique

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the impedance of a feedback circuit using Blackman's technique and the Vtest/Itest method. Participants explore various approaches to analyze the circuit, including assumptions about the components involved and the implications of feedback on impedance.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant outlines a method using Blackman's theorem to calculate impedance, suggesting that the impedance with feedback can be derived from the return ratios.
  • Another participant challenges the feasibility of the analysis due to insufficient information about the MOSFETs' types and characteristics, indicating that the circuit cannot be analyzed without these details.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the application of Blackman's theorem, with one noting that it was poorly explained in their course.
  • There are discussions about the operational amplifier's gain and its effect on the circuit's behavior, with some arguing that the gain must be considered in the analysis.
  • Several participants debate the conditions under which the circuit can function, including the necessity of biasing and the potential for saturation in the MOSFETs.
  • One participant suggests that the feedback mechanism would correct the impedance regardless of the FETs' characteristics, while others counter that the circuit's design may not support this assumption.
  • There is a mention of the possibility of using depletion mode FETs, adding another layer of complexity to the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the correct approach to analyze the circuit. There are multiple competing views regarding the applicability of Blackman's theorem, the types of MOSFETs used, and the assumptions necessary for a valid analysis.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the lack of specific parameters for the MOSFETs, the ambiguity regarding the type of amplifier used, and the assumptions about the circuit's operational conditions. These factors contribute to the unresolved nature of the discussion.

  • #31
I must admit that - up to now - I didn`t need Blackman`s theorem. So, I took this opportunity to become familiar with it.
If somebody is still interested to see how it woks for the present task, here is the solution:

The impedance Z between two points of a feedback system is:
Z=ZD(1+Tsc)/(1+Toc)
with ZD=Impedance between both points without feedback , and
Tsc=Loop gain magnitude with a short across the selcted points; Toc=Loop gain magnitude with an open circuit across both points.

For the present case: We need the resistance between the pos. opamp input (point 1) and ground (point 2).

Therefore: ZD=R and
Tsc=0 because A=0 (both opamp input terminals at ground potential) and |Toc|=A*0.1*gm*R.

This gives

Z=R*(1+0)/(1+A*0.1*gm*R)=R/(1+A*0.1*gm*R)
(confirmed by symbolic analyzer, see my previous post)
 
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  • #32
LvW said:
I must admit that - up to now - I didn`t need Blackman`s theorem. So, I took this opportunity to become familiar with it.
If somebody is still interested to see how it woks for the present task, here is the solution:

The impedance Z between two points of a feedback system is:
Z=ZD(1+Tsc)/(1+Toc)
with ZD=Impedance between both points without feedback , and
Tsc=Loop gain magnitude with a short across the selcted points; Toc=Loop gain magnitude with an open circuit across both points.

For the present case: We need the resistance between the pos. opamp input (point 1) and ground (point 2).

Therefore: ZD=R and
Tsc=0 because A=0 (both opamp input terminals at ground potential) and |Toc|=A*0.1*gm*R.

This gives

Z=R*(1+0)/(1+A*0.1*gm*R)=R/(1+A*0.1*gm*R)
(confirmed by symbolic analyzer, see my previous post)
Thanks for your research! Only thing I would point out is that gm is a strong function of Vgs = 0.1AV where V is the quiescent + amp input voltage ("point 1"). So the operating point of the circuit still has to be solved for, then gm = 2k(0.1AV - VT) can be determined. Of course, you'd need k also.
 
  • #33
Yes, of course. My calculation (blindly) assumes an operating point in the linear FET region.
 
  • #34
LvW said:
Yes, of course. My calculation (blindly) assumes an operating point in the linear FET region.
OK. Now you'd be subject to Vds modulation but I'd say enough of this, thanks for enlightening us all on the (in?)famous Blackman method! :woot:
r m
 
  • #35
Waxterzz, are you going to try get a result with the Vtest/Itest method?
 
  • #36
This has been a fine, collaborative effort. Well done, all contributors!
thumbsup.gif
 
  • #37
Yes - and caused by an interesting question from the OP (forcing us - includiung me - to remember and apply Blackmans rule).
 
  • #38
LvW said:
Yes - and caused by an interesting question from the OP (forcing us - includiung me - to remember and apply Blackmans rule).
@ LvW - just as a final note - the fact that the upper FET can operate as a cascode connection (by suitably setting its gate bias) you can indeed operate the lower FET in the linear mode while keeping Vds essentially constant - meaning your assumption of operating in the linear mode while keeping gm constant, is fully validated.
Over and out!
rm
 
  • #39
rude man - thank you for this final remark.
 

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