Can a Former Felon Succeed as an Engineer?

[JimmI_Hendrix]

I've been to prison twice in my life, both times for robbery. The first time i did about 15 months, the last time i did 10 years! I was a drug abuser from a very young age.I started smoking pot at 14 or 15 and doing cocaine at 18. Iamb in my 30's now. going to prison for ten years has change my life. while behind bars i discovered that i love math and science. so while i was incarcerated i used that time to educate myself. i came from a ged level education to college. i learned a lot of math on my own. my family would send me textbooks and i would spend all the time i could studying. i was into books so much that the some of the other inmates used to tease me about it. i read voraciously too everything from Alexander Solzintsyn and George Polya to Noam Chompsky and Toni Morrison. i love intelectual things! Now I'm an undegrad (I was released on 10/1/03) studying engineering and possibly i'll double major in mathematics too. my question is who in the world is going to hire me as an engineer? I'm an african american and a convicted felon that's a double whammy! I excell in school and I'm always among the top students in any class that I've taken. but i can't help but envy the squeaky clean white guys that are barely passing but when it comes time for a job i'll be overlooked for them. I'm expecting to graduate with above a 3.5 average but with my record i don't think that that wil make much of a difference to most employers. what can i do to improve my chances of landing an engineering job? what i did was wrong but i paid for it. believe me I've paid dearly! now i just want to be a normal tax paying citizen like everyone else.

 

[ZapperZ]

First of all, I'm going to smack you silly, shake you up like a ragged doll, and walk right up to your face and ask "under what rock have you been living?"

An african-american, with an engineering degree, and not only that, a GOOD engineering degree, is snapped up like nobody's business! The need of many businesses and companies to diversify the work environment, and the various incentives to hire minorities, have made someone like you unbelievably in demand! And not only that, with your grades, you could easily be hired without invoking any "preferential" hiring policies.

The fact that you are an ex-fellon who actually managed to turn your life around is not a disadavantage, but an advantage! It may not get you any Q-clearence jobs, but I will be very surprised if, given the situation and the explanation, many companies wouldn't find it highly desirable to hire someone like you.

There are many things you can't control. How you would be perceived when you apply for a job is one of them. I would suggest you let fate and the future take care of themselves. The ONLY thing you can control is what you do with your own life and the decision you make. Get your degree and then deal with whatever comes your way.

Zz.

 

[Pengwuino]

I'm an african american and a convicted felon that's a double whammy! I excell in school and I'm always among the top students in any class that I've taken. but i can't help but envy the squeaky clean white guys that are barely passing but when it comes time for a job i'll be overlooked for them.

Getting good grades is going ot hugely make up for ex-felon status. Race is also not really an issue when it comes down to it, regardless of what some people want ot tell you. For 1, most people semi-intelligent people are over racism (and there the ones probably reviewing applications). And I am very sure you won't be overlooked by a bunch of slackers. I have a cousin who actually had an engineering degree and "barely passed" and he's a highly successful... wal-mart cashier lol. Couldn't get hired.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

thank you. as much as i used to hate to say it, maybe going to prison was the best thing that could have happened to me. I see a lot of people that i used to hang out with still doing drugs and going in and out of jail. I'm glad that I don't live like that anymore. maybe i'll be a testimony to someone else.

 

[Evo]

Hi JimmI, welcome to PF and kudos to you for turning your life around!

I don't think you'll have much problem getting a job, if you let the positive attitude you have come through in your job interviews, you should be just fine.

 

[Monique]

I'm an african american and a convicted felon that's a double whammy!

You don't have to disclose the fact that you were in jail when applying. If they ask about your past in the interview you have the chance to convince them that you are the right person for the job, even though you did time.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

You don't have to disclose the fact that you were in jail when applying. If they ask about your past in the interview you have the chance to convince them that you are the right person for the job, even though you did time.

I think that i do have to tell them about my past. i have never applied for a "white collar" job but for the other jobs I've had one of the first questions on the application is "have you ever been convicted of a crime". Even when i applied to the university that i attend on the app they asked have i ever been convicted of a crime.

 

[Monique]

Even when i applied to the university that i attend on the app they asked have i ever been convicted of a crime.

I'm not sure, but are they allowed to ask for such information?

 

[juvenal]

You don't have to disclose the fact that you were in jail when applying. If they ask about your past in the interview you have the chance to convince them that you are the right person for the job, even though you did time.

In the US - you do need to disclose for most jobs. And some employers will make you take a drug test in order to finalize your hiring.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

as far as i know yes.

 

[klusener]

Man, I seriously believe you could be the reincarnation of Malcolm X.. :)

 

[Knavish]

I know I've seen questions as such on fast-food job applications, but I think it'll make less of a difference if you were to get a professional engineering job; I think you can prove yourself to your employer..

Anyway, that was a pretty awesome story.. hope everything turns out well!

 

[Pengwuino]

Therse a lot of companies now offering on-line background checks on people so whether they ask or not, I am sure they would find out.

 

[arildno]

I just have to say, I think it is so great that you've finally found something you're really interested in, and can steer your life in a constructive direction.

I wouldn't worry too much about future job prospects, though; practically all industry is screaming after qualified technical staff.

I wish you the very best in the future.

 

[Evo]

I think that i do have to tell them about my past. i have never applied for a "white collar" job but for the other jobs I've had one of the first questions on the application is "have you ever been convicted of a crime". Even when i applied to the university that i attend on the app they asked have i ever been convicted of a crime.

Here in the US I have never seen a job application that didn't ask if you have ever been convicted of a felony. Answering no can result in immediate dismissal if you are hired and a background check shows you lied. Not answering the question will result in them asking you to answer and raising a red flag or tossing out your application without even giving you the chance to interview.

Better to be honest, and explain what happened.

My company posted some job adds in a few papers a few years ago when I worked in New Jersey, we received over 90,000 resumes for 5 positions of which around 8,000 were forwarded to our department for review by our employment office. I was asked to help weed through them and select which would be invited for an interview. We didn't even bother to read any which were on colored paper, had serrated edges, were more than 2 pages long, or had cutesy fonts or designs. We were actually pitching them into a corner of a room behind a large plant. The next killer was typographical and/or grammatical errors. We didn't even bother to read what the qualifications of the applicant were if they didn't have the brains to appear professional.

Take advantage of any professional resume writing and interviewing techniques your school may offer.

 

[Pengwuino]

We didn't even bother to read any which were on colored paper, had serrated edges, were more than 2 pages long, or had cutesy fonts or designs.

haha beautiful!

If i had that job, id have a bonfire and throw all the resumes that weren't plainly printed in black and white into the fire :D Any wrinkle would get the fire too... any even possible shade of color would get burnt too.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

I've met a lot of people in prison who given the chance could excel in the free world. the thing about prison is there really is no emphasis on getting the guys educated at least in florida. for example at the second prison camp i was at, this was in the mid 90's, i was a ged tutor and i was starting to learn algebra so i needed a calculator so that i could do the trigonometry and evaluate transcendtal functions etc... so when i talked to the administration about it they said that i could'nt get a calculator because it would be a security threat! but the softball bats and horseshoes down at the recreation area were not. i was very upset because i felt that they wanted to hold me back from learning as much as i could. but shortly after that i was trasferred to another camp and they let me get a ti-89. I was lucky. During the entire time that i was incarcerated i was the only person that had a calculator. they even had a rule that you could not receive any hard cover books in the mail but that one was changed in 98 i think.

 

[Monique]

Here in the US I have never seen a job application that didn't ask if you have ever been convicted of a felony.

Really? I must be confused with something else then, maybe the regulations are different in Europe. For sure I know an interviewer can't ask a woman whether she is planning to get pregnant, same in the US?

 

[ZapperZ]

We didn't even bother to read any which were on colored paper, had serrated edges, were more than 2 pages long, or had cutesy fonts or designs. We were actually pitching them into a corner of a room behind a large plant.

You mean that if I have cute Mickey ears border on my resume, you would chuck them out? Evo, I'm hurt!

:)

Zz.

 

[juvenal]

My company posted some job adds in a few papers a few years ago when I worked in New Jersey, we received over 90,000 resumes for 5 positions of which around 8,000 were forwarded to our department for review by our employment office. I was asked to help weed through them and select which would be invited for an interview. We didn't even bother to read any which were on colored paper, had serrated edges, were more than 2 pages long, or had cutesy fonts or designs. We were actually pitching them into a corner of a room behind a large plant. The next killer was typographical and/or grammatical errors. We didn't even bother to read what the qualifications of the applicant were if they didn't have the brains to appear professional.

I like to perfume my resume.

 

[Evo]

You mean that if I have cute Mickey ears border on my resume, you would chuck them out? Evo, I'm hurt!

:)

Zz.

Those I tucked away and followed up on personally.

For sure I know an interviewer can't ask a woman whether she is planning to get pregnant, same in the US?

Yes, questions of that nature aren't allowed.

 

[Evo]

so when i talked to the administration about it they said that i could'nt get a calculator because it would be a security threat! but the softball bats and horseshoes down at the recreation area were not.

Sometimes they just don't think things through clearly, I'm glad that you got moved.

 

[gnome]

Really? I must be confused with something else then, maybe the regulations are different in Europe. For sure I know an interviewer can't ask a woman whether she is planning to get pregnant, same in the US?

Is there some similarity between getting pregnant and being convicted of a felony?

 

[Pengwuino]

Yah, you've lost your freedom for a few years lol

 

[Knavish]

That is somewhat of a pity..

I think the prison systems have too much emphasis on punishment (which accomplishes nothing per se), rather than helping prisoners become functional members of society once again.

 

[Pengwuino]

Well unfortunately there's far too many people in the system that are there because they chose not to be functional members of society for re-form to ever be a practical idea.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

I'm not against punishing people when they break the law. There are definitely some people in prison who deserve to be there ( i was one of them) but once a person is making a change it seems that society is unwilling to help and allocate resources to make change possible. The funny thing about american society is that we glorify violence in some ways. 50 cent the rapper is more than welcome at Rebok's coporate offices because he sells millions of records and helps them sell shoes. His lyrics are violent and one of his most popular songs was "How to rob". But would Rebok be willing to hire a real life ex-con who's not famous? Are they investing in inner cities?

 

[Gza]

I'm not against punishing people when they break the law. There are definitely some people in prison who deserve to be there ( i was one of them) but once a person is making a change it seems that society is unwilling to help and allocate resources to make change possible. The funny thing about american society is that we glorify violence in some ways. 50 cent the rapper is more than welcome at Rebok's coporate offices because he sells millions of records and helps them sell shoes. His lyrics are violent and one of his most popular songs was "How to rob". But would Rebok be willing to hire a real life ex-con who's not famous? Are they investing in inner cities?

I don't think that this could be any more true. In fact, under pressure, Reebok had to pull an ad in which 50 is shown jumproping and counting down the number of times he was shot. Gun control groups had a field day with the ad, and I'm personally glad it was never released, being nothing more than complete gratification of violence. I'm proud of you for turning your life around by the way, and find similarity in both of our stories, since I've actually done some time myself, and found it in me to turn it around as well, and am now attending a UC college. Keep your interest in science well fed, and you'll never look back...

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

thanks Gza. I'm glad that I'm not an anamoly. How much time did you do?

 

[Pengwuino]

Yah but too bad you can't ban rap or restrict it. That'll be "Trampling free speech for an entire cultural experience!"

 

[Poop-Loops]

Banning rap wouldn't accomplish anything. It would just piss off a lot of people and they'd find other ways to listen to it.

I'm glad to hear you skyrocketed like that JimmI. But your calculator problem actually shows that it's not that society doesn't want to help you out, it's just that they are too lazy to do it. Why go through the trouble of filling out paper work when they could just say "no" instead?

PL

 

[Knavish]

This reminds me of a book: Les Miserables. Read it. It kicks ass.

 

[Monique]

Is there some similarity between getting pregnant and being convicted of a felony?

There is: privacy of information, some questions cannot be asked during an interview or on an application.

There was a controversy some time ago where it was questioned whether a person convicted of a felony, who has finished the sentence, needs to inform the surrounding community. The point was that when someone has done time, they have been punished and they should not continue to pay for it by stigmatization. The problem was with convicted child-molesters. The fact that the community could not be warned if such a person moved into their area, led to the controversy that children became victim of that molester. The community then demanded for the laws to be changed so that when a person had done time for child-molestation, they'd be warned of that fact.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

Child Molesters are a breed all their own. I was actually incarcerated right next to Florida's Jimmy Rice center where Florida houses the worst of the worst sexual offenders. No one likes child molesters, myself included. But i don't like the Jimmy Rice law that let's Florida "Detain" sexual offenders indefinitely until a psychiatrist deems them recovered from treatment. So a person sentenced to say 5 years can theoretically be held for life. I think the new law is a lot more fair. If a person is conviced of a sex crime involving a child the sentence is 25 years to life in prison, and if released on parole they will be monitered for the rest of their lives by G.P.S. At lest this new law let's them know up front what the punishmet is. Jimmy Rice is unfair in the way that it's used, the government can decide who needs to be detained in a piecemeal way which leads to prosicutorial misconduct. On the flip side of the sex crime issue is the 19 or 20 year old guy who slept with an underage girl he met in a club that was supposed to chech her ID and make sure that she was an adult. I know someone who that happened to and now he's a registered sex offender.

 

[Icebreaker]

What if you had a long-time girlfriend who is 1 year younger than you? When you reach 18, what happens?

Anyway I'm very glad you could turn your life around, JimmI, and I'm sure you will excel at your future endeavours.

On a curious note: if you were a convicted fellon and were in prison, are you eligible for professorship?

 

[Monique]

On a curious note: if you were a convicted fellon and were in prison, are you eligible for professorship?

Why not? You are judged for your academic contributions, not whether you go to church every week.

 

[Icebreaker]

What about the age difference question?

 

[Evo]

What about the age difference question?

The answer is that once you become 18, you can be arrested as an adult for raping a child (your girlfriend), it doesn't matter if she consents. I know, it's nuts, but that's the law in the US.

 

[Artermis]

JimmI, your story was very touching. I would agree with you that you ARE at a disadvantage, whoever tells you that you aren't is wrong, simply because that society is really that unkind, unforgiving and irrational.

However, if you keep a positive attitude and refuse to take no for an answer (as, undoubtedly, many potential employers will simply see your criminal record and throw you out the door with their finger over the silent alarm button), I am sure that you will go very far given from what I can tell from your posts.

 

[ktpr2]

Let it be known that if I were a manager I would hire Jimi, for what it's worth. And so would many who posted on this thread. So that's something.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

What if you had a long-time girlfriend who is 1 year younger than you? When you reach 18, what happens?

Anyway I'm very glad you could turn your life around, JimmI, and I'm sure you will excel at your future endeavours.

On a curious note: if you were a convicted fellon and were in prison, are you eligible for professorship?

I don't know the answer to that question.But with my background i would probably be able to reach some borderline kids and help them stay on the right track.

Nathan Mcall wrote a book that has been an inspiration to me "Makes Me Wana Holler". It's a biography about his life. He also went to prison for robbery, changed his life around, and ended up writing for the New York Times!

 

[so-crates]

The answer is that once you become 18, you can be arrested as an adult for raping a child (your girlfriend), it doesn't matter if she consents. I know, it's nuts, but that's the law in the US.

In most states I believe there needs to be more than a 2-year age difference. What bugs me is how can you tell if the girl is under 18. If you are 20 and a 16-year old girl lies and says she's 18, you can be convicted of statutory rape. A similar circumstance happened to Michael Vick's brother, Marcus Vick - though he only was convicted of distributing alcohol to minors (a misdemeanor). I don't know the full circumstances of the case but when you have an age difference like that I think there needs to be some common sense. Our society still hangs on to the fantasy that older teenage girls are totally innocent and that if they engage in intercourse it must be because of a predatory male.

Jimm1_Hendrix: What type of engineering degree do you have? I believe a felony conviction would pretty much bar you from getting anything with a U.S. DoD contractor due to security clearance issues, which in my area (D.C. suburbs) is like 80% of the technical jobs. I have a degree in CS(4 years since my bachelors :-( ) and have had a lot of difficulty finding opportunities despite having internship experience in college, so I would imagine its going to be a tough fight. Your GPA is pretty good but there are a lot of people sporting 3.5's. I just went on an interview Friday and my competition was two fresh grads, I know that I definitely have to be a disadvantage because of how far removed from my bachelor's without any direct work experience.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

I'm working on a mechanical engineering degree so-crates.

 

[so-crates]

My suggestion would probably then be to not only work really hard in your classes, etc. but also to try to find an interesting project to work on. You will probably have to demonstate not only that your aren't the same person that wen't to jail, but that you are also a cut above the rest in terms of motivation, work ethic, and creativity.

 

[mathwonk]

mr hendrix, i recommend telling the truth on your applications, even if it turns off some employers. otherwise you would always be wondering when they are going to find out and fire you. if you are up front then you know when you do get a job there is nothing to fear.

i recall a girl who was admitted to harvard who had committed murder as a minor, but the case was supposedly sealed, so she did not mention it on her application. then she was outed and there was a big problem, maybe she was kicked out. you do not want that after you have put in your time and effort doing a good job, and the longer you would go without getting caught, the worse it would become to lose all you had worked for.

hang in there.

 

[JimmI_Hendrix]

That's how I'm going to go about it,i'm going to tell the whole truth from the very beginning. Some one is going to hire me and get a great engineer! If for no other reason a company would wan't me around because i'd be loyal to them. When i get my opportunity I'm going to take full advantage of it.

I have another question for the community. I am a very muscular guy. I weigh between 235-240. I have big arms and chest from years of lifting weights in prison. I find that some people are easily intimidated by my size even though I'm only 5'9''. I don't look like the "typical engineer". Do you think that my size will effect my employment opportunites in a negative way?

 

[Dracovich]

Interesting question Jimmi, although you're certainly bigger then me, I'm kinda athletic and I've noticed some weird looks from showing up to school with black eyes and various injuries from training Could imagine it being a problem if i were to get into an non-liberal office enviroment. Although it's years away still.

 

[Norman]

That's how I'm going to go about it,i'm going to tell the whole truth from the very beginning. Some one is going to hire me and get a great engineer! If for no other reason a company would wan't me around because i'd be loyal to them. When i get my opportunity I'm going to take full advantage of it.

I have another question for the community. I am a very muscular guy. I weigh between 235-240. I have big arms and chest from years of lifting weights in prison. I find that some people are easily intimidated by my size even though I'm only 5'9''. I don't look like the "typical engineer". Do you think that my size will effect my employment opportunites in a negative way?

Hey Jimmi,

I don't know if your size will be an issue if you present a professional appearance. I think professionalism and honesty will be your greatest weapons in finding employment. On another level, have you considered going on to grad school? I have heard in engineering that in the real world (that is not university), graduate degrees in engineering can actually make it difficult to get jobs without real world experience, but maybe you could get a Ph.D. and become a professor? Or teach somewhere? Anyways, just some ideas. Stay positive and work hard. I think you are at a disadvantage compared to the squeaky clean white kids, but you also have the maturity and life experiences that some employers are looking for. In the end I am positive things will work out for you.
Good luck and god speed.
Norm

 

[mathwonk]

Thats not a problem, and unless you keep lifting, it will gradually diminish from years of just lifting a pencil and sitting at at desk.

In fact you may find you need to be mindful of staying in shape, if you get a desk job.

 

[mathwonk]

Jimmi,

you know I've been thinking... there is a potential issue with intimidation, but it is not exactly the same as size.

men in some situations, presumably including prison, may learn to behave in a threatening manner, to protect themselves. I know I had to when I worked in the meat market. If I didn't, some of those guys would have "eaten my lunch" every day.

But any kind of threatening body language or speech, is out of bounds in an office setting. We have to learn even to take some verbal abuse, without ever threatening physical retaliation, as we might in an all male, physical work setting.

It can be very frustrating to be read out by some twit, or seriously mistreated, and never respond by losing our temper. But even shouting in an office environment can be cause for dismissal, regardless of who is right.

Presumably you are already getting some practice at this in grad school, but if this rings a bell, you might want some professional advice and coaching, better than just our opinions here.

It can be done. You just say goodbye to those old attitudes of survival forever, and use exercise, and maybe meditation or worship if that's your thing, to blow off steam.

Ultimately, the fact is the "way of yielding" is more powerful, as both Jesus and Jigoro Kano [founder of modern judo] knew, but it takes persistence.

You are a new man now, in every way, and probably you have already dealt with this. Putting people at ease is all about smiling and remaining calm, and respecting their words, their feelings, and their space. There are many large but gentle people out there.

Best wishes.