Can different paths in spacetime have the same separation?

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  • #101
PAllen has clearly misread/misinterpreted the thought experiment described. Let me help him in getting the matter clarified.

WE consider a spacetime curve running from X[t1,x1,y1,z1] to Z[t3,x3,y3,z3] via Y[t2,x2,y2,z2]. The curve between X and Y is time like and the curve between Y and Z is spacelike . t1<t2

In the time t1 to t2 the observer reaches from X to Y along the timelike curve with the expectation that he will find a space like curve between Y and Z.[or may be observers at the spatial position of Y standing for a long time before his advent will inform him about the nature of the path ahead of him--and how it has changed]. The apparently unreachable spacetime point is now reachable!
 
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  • #102
Anamitra said:
This part is absolutely OK. Thanks for that PAllen!
Now we are thinking of two spacetime paths A and B where B is a subset of A.t for initial point of A is greater than t for initial point of B. The part between initial point of A and initial point of B is time like and the rest is spacelike when the observer is at A.When the observer reaches the initial point of B he is amazed to find that the rest of the journey can be carried out since the remailing path has become timelike due to gravity!

The example in the following link is in tune with what you are saying!
https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=3061386&postcount=36

I hope I can get closer to your misunderstanding. If B is a spacetime path it simply is spacelike. You cannot talk about a spacetime path changing nature. You can talk about *different* spacetime paths that have similar coordinate representations having different character (spacelike/timelike). The clause:

"and the rest is spacelike when the observer is at A"

is utterly meaningless. The rest is or isn't spacelike, there is no 'when' about it.

The spacetime path you describe simply joins an observer going from beginning of A to beginning of B and encountering the end of a ruler at B.
 
  • #103
Anamitra said:
PAllen has clearly misread/misinterpreted the thought experiment described. Let me help him in getting the matter clarified.

WE consider a spacetime curve running from X[t1,x1,y1,z1] to Z[t3,x3,y3,z3] via Y[t2,x2,y2,z2]. The curve between X and Y is time like and the curve between Y and Z is spacelike . t1<t2

In the time t1 to t2 the observer reaches from X to Y along the timelike curve with the expectation that he will find a space like curve between Y and Z.[or may be observers at the spatial position of Y standing for a long time before his advent will inform him about the nature of the path ahead of him--and how it has changed]. The apparently unreachable spacetime point is now reachable!

This is impossible. The nature of Y to Z cannot 'change', this isn't remotely meaningful. What the path X-Y-Z represents is that an observer following X to Y encounters a ruler at Y, going from Y to Z.
 
  • #104
You can always take it in this way:Observers have been standing at the spatial position of y from time<t2.They knew very well that the spacetime point Z had a spacelike separation for time<t2.This information was transmitted to the observer at the spacetime point X at some suitable time<t2[or may be when the observer [initialy at X ] is on the way to Y!

The observer ,when he arrives at Y is amazed to find that the path ahead of him has become timelike!
Observers standing at the same spatial point have the same notion at time=t2
[Spacetime point Y is the same for all observers instantaneously,when the moving observer arrives there]
 
  • #105
Anamitra said:
You can always take it in this way:Observers have been standing at the spatial position of y from time<t2.They knew very well that the spacetime point Z had a spacelike separation for time<t2.This information was transmitted to the observer at the spacetime point X at some suitable time<t2[or may be when the observer [initialy at X ] is on the way to Y!

The observer ,when he arrives at Y is amazed to find that the path ahead of him has become timelike!
Observers standing at the same spatial point have the same notion at time=t2
[Spacetime point Y is the same for all observers instantaneously,when the moving observer arrives there]

What you can really say is that an observer at some position notes there are always time like paths he can initiate (firing bullets say), constant time spacelike paths (there's a ruler sitting next to him), and time varying spacelike paths (someone whisking a flashlight back and forth from a nearby building, fast enough so the light spot on the ground is moving faster than c). This is the physics of what's going on. Then, for some chosen coordinate system (and this is purely a feature of the chosen coordinate system), it happens that after a while, the coordinate description that had applied to the flashlight paths now applies to the bullet paths. Nothing physical has changed. Using different coordinates, no such 'anomaly' would be seen.
 
  • #106
Anamitra said:
You can always take it in this way:Observers have been standing at the spatial position of y from time<t2.They knew very well that the spacetime point Z had a spacelike separation for time<t2.
By "point Z" do you mean a point in space (which persists over time) or a point in spacetime (an instantaneously brief localized event)? When physicists talk about a "spacelike separation" between points, they're talking about points in spacetime. If this is what you're doing, what two events are you saying had a spacelike separation? Also, note that although in SR one can talk about the separation between two points (with it understood that we're looking at a straight line in spacetime between them), in GR one really needs to specify a path through spacetime to say if it's spacelike or timelike or lightlike, since there are multiple paths between any given pair of events and none of them uniquely represent "the" separation between them.
Anamitra said:
This information was transmitted to the observer at the spacetime point X at some suitable time<t2[or may be when the observer [initialy at X ] is on the way to Y!

The observer ,when he arrives at Y is amazed to find that the path ahead of him has become timelike!
What do you mean "the path ahead of him"? "Ahead" in what sense? Ahead in some spatial direction, or ahead in his future light cone? Your scenario is really difficult to understand in words and I doubt anyone else is understanding it much better than I am, it would help if you either drew a spacetime diagram or gave a numerical example, or at least described all the worldlines and events more carefully, being sure to distinguish between points and paths in space and points and paths in spacetime, and perhaps also specifying which points in spacetime like in the future light cones of other points and which pairs of points are not in each other's past or future light cones (so there is no timelike path through spacetime between them, and no signal traveling at the speed of light or slower could get from one point to the other).
Anamitra said:
Observers standing at the same spatial point have the same notion at time=t2
[Spacetime point Y is the same for all observers instantaneously,when the moving observer arrives there]
You said before y was a spatial position, now you're saying it's a spacetime point? They are two very different concepts? Again, with a spatial position you can talk about the same position at different times, but a spacetime point is an instantaneously brief event.
 
  • #107
I believe that I have been misread once more. So I am trying to clarify my stand:

WE consider a spacetime curve running from X[t1,x1,y1,z1] to Z[t3,x3,y3,z3] via Y[t2,x2,y2,z2]. The curve between X and Y is time like and the curve between Y and Z is EXPECTEDLY spacelike . t1<t2

In the time t1 to t2 the observer reaches from X to Y along the timelike curve with the expectation that he will find a space like curve between Y and Z.[or may be observers at the spatial position of Y standing for a long time before his advent will inform him about the nature of the path ahead of him--and how it has changed]. The apparently unreachable spacetime point is now reachable!

The term EXPECTEDLY has been explained below:

You can always take it in this way:Observers have been standing at the spatial position of y from time<t2.They knew very well that the spacetime point Z had a spacelike separation for time<t2.They could well expect the path remain spacelike for t=t2. That is the observes are expecting a spacelike separation between Y and Z which are spacetime points.This information was transmitted to the observer at the spacetime point X at some suitable time<t2[or may be when the observer [initially at X ] is on the way to Y!

The observer ,when he arrives at Y is amazed to find that the path ahead of him has become timelike!
Observers standing at the same spatial point have the same notion at time=t2
[Spacetime point Y is the same for all observers instantaneously,when the moving observer arrives there]
 
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  • #108
One may,in many circumstances envisage[they may pre-calculate or they may be pre-informed] the nature of separation between a pair of spacetime points[events] before the occurrence of the events, from the present situation of the metric coefficients--their expressions/values.But when the events occur they may find that the nature of separation has changed---spacelike paths have time like or vice-versa.
 
  • #109
Anamitra said:
The term EXPECTEDLY has been explained below:

You can always take it in this way:Observers have been standing at the spatial position of y from time<t2.They knew very well that the spacetime point Z had a spacelike separation for time<t2.
A spacelike separation from what?
Anamitra said:
They could well expect the path remain spacelike for t=t2.
What is this "path" you are talking about? What set of events does it pass through? You say "remain spacelike", does that mean some section of this path is spacelike, and if so what section is that? You never define any of your terms clearly!
Anamitra said:
That is the observes are expecting a spacelike separation between Y and Z which are spacetime points.
Why do they "expect" that? Are they ignorant of the metric?
Anamitra said:
This information was transmitted to the observer at the spacetime point X at some suitable time<t2[or may be when the observer [initially at X ] is on the way to Y!
What information?
 
  • #110
Anamitra said:
One may,in many circumstances envisage the nature of separation between a pair of spacetime points[events] before the occurrence of the events, from the present situation of the metric coefficients--their expressions/values.But when the events occur they may find that the nature of separation has changed---spacelike paths have time like or vice-versa.

This really makes no sense. You are looking at time varying metric components expressed in some specific coordinates, and trying to explain it this way. This is not a correct explanation. A correct explanation of how this situation would be perceived is given in my post #105.
 
  • #111
Please go through the posts #107 and #108, Jesse
 
  • #112
Anamitra said:
One may,in many circumstances envisage the nature of separation between a pair of spacetime points[events] before the occurrence of the events, from the present situation of the metric coefficients--their expressions/values.But when the events occur they may find that the nature of separation has changed---spacelike paths have time like or vice-versa.
In GR you can predict what the metric coefficients will be in the future if you know the coefficients along with the distribution of matter/energy in the present. And in any case I don't think you can meaningfully define a coordinate system on a region of spacetime where you don't know the metric, and without a coordinate system how can you even pinpoint specific events and paths in this region in order to talk about whether the paths to the events are spacelike or timelike?
 
  • #113
Anamitra said:
Please go through the posts #107 and #108, Jesse
My post #109 was directly in response to #107, I asked questions because I found your description there completely unclear (and I doubt anyone else reading this thread could follow it either). Post #108 is unclear as well, see my response in #112. If you want to be understood, it might help if you would try your best to give specific answers to the questions I ask.
 
  • #114
JesseM said:
In GR you can predict what the metric coefficients will be in the future if you know the coefficients along with the distribution of matter/energy in the present. And in any case I don't think you can meaningfully define a coordinate system on a region of spacetime where you don't know the metric, and without a coordinate system how can you even pinpoint specific events and paths in this region in order to talk about whether the paths to the events are spacelike or timelike?

The important aspect to consider is the finite speed of signal transmission!
I can always get informed about the nature of metrics at different points.Information about the changed state /changed values of the metrics will reach me later. There is a period of ignorance which may be a hundred years or more

[At each spatial point we may preserve information artificially or naturally for a future assessment----one may assume that]
 
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  • #115
Anamitra said:
The important aspect to consider is the finite speed of signal transmission!
I can always get informed about the nature of metrics at different points.Information about the changed state /changed values of the metrics will reach me later. There is a period of ignorance which may be a hundred years or more
Again, you can predict what the metric will be like even in regions you can't get an actual signal from. If you don't know enough about a region to predict the metric, then it seems to me the only "events" you can talk about in this region are fairly generic ones like "the future decay of some particle I saw earlier" or "the event of some clock showing a time T later than the time it showed the most recent moment I saw it". How would you even describe a specific path to speculate about whether it'll be spacelike or timelike in that region?

I suppose if you had a family of clocks connected by flexible springs filling space, then you could define a coordinate system where each clock had a constant position coordinate and its reading defined a time coordinate, so then you could talk about coordinates even in regions where you didn't know the metric, and define a "path" in terms of those coordinates...but if you didn't know the metric it's hard to see how you could have much basis for "expecting" that a particular path would be spacelike or timelike (except a special cases like a path of constant position coordinate, which would just be the worldline of some clock and must therefore be timelike)
 
  • #116
We are considering a set of time slices corresponding to t1 ,t2,t3...t(n-1),tn [The time coordinates are in increasing order and time remains constant for each slice]
When at (t1,xA,yA,zA), I may try to visualize/pre-assess the nature of separation between the events (t(n-1),xA,yA,zA) and (tn,xB,yB,zB) along some coordinate curve[the coordinate labels are not changing]. The curve runs between the two events on two specified time slices. I know that the metrics will be changing. AS I move from (t1,xA,yA,zA) towards (t(n-1),xA,yA,zA) there may be a huge number of instants for which I may not be able to predict the nature of the curve between (t(n-1),xA,yA,zA) and (tn,xB,yB,zB)--they may turn out to be of any type timelike ,spacelike or null.

The curve has the same set of coordinate points for all predictions

We may also think in terms of parallel ensembles[I mean to say groups of time slices of the type mentioned in the first paragraph]with the surfaces corresponding to t1 as identical.We have different sets of time slices for the different sets of metric coefficients[coordinate labels are the same for the curve].And different situations are realizable -----spacelike,null or timelike connections between the same points and along the same coordinate curves .[for different ensembles]
 
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  • #117
I may not be able to predict the exact shape/nature of future time slices and hence the nature of separation between points lying on them[separate time slices] could be anything!

[I may have to wait a very long time for any correct prediction]
 
  • #118
Anamitra, this is completely silly. The fact that we may be surprised about something due to ignorance on the subject is not something new to GR.

If you are ignorant of the metric in some region of spacetime then you are also ignorant of whether or not a given path through that region is timelike or spacelike. Again, a path does not change from timelike to spacelike due to the influence of gravity. If the metric is unknown then so is the nature of the path. In fact, if the metric is unknown then whether or not a given set of coordinates is even valid is also unknown.
 
  • #119
DaleSpam said:
Anamitra, this is completely silly. The fact that we may be surprised about something due to ignorance on the subject is not something new to GR.

If you are ignorant of the metric in some region of spacetime then you are also ignorant of whether or not a given path through that region is timelike or spacelike. Again, a path does not change from timelike to spacelike due to the influence of gravity. If the metric is unknown then so is the nature of the path. In fact, if the metric is unknown then whether or not a given set of coordinates is even valid is also unknown.

You may just think of the situation[time dependent fields depicted in #116 and #117] in contrast against stationary fields.
 
  • #120
Anamitra said:
We are considering a set of time slices corresponding to t1 ,t2,t3...t(n-1),tn [The time coordinates are in increasing order and time remains constant for each slice]
When at (t1,xA,yA,zA), I may try to visualize/pre-assess the nature of separation between the events (t(n-1),xA,yA,zA) and (tn,xB,yB,zB) along some coordinate curve[the coordinate labels are not changing]. The curve runs between the two events on two specified time slices. I know that the metrics will be changing. AS I move from (t1,xA,yA,zA) towards (t(n-1),xA,yA,zA) there may be a huge number of instants for which I may not be able to predict the nature of the curve between (t(n-1),xA,yA,zA) and (tn,xB,yB,zB)--they may turn out to be of any type timelike ,spacelike or null.

The curve has the same set of coordinate points for all predictions

We may also think in terms of parallel ensembles[I mean to say groups of time slices of the type mentioned in the first paragraph]with the surfaces corresponding to t1 as identical.We have different sets of time slices for the different sets of metric coefficients[coordinate labels are the same for the curve].And different situations are realizable -----spacelike,null or timelike connections between the same points and along the same coordinate curves .[for different ensembles]

Yes, you could do something like this. Note:

1) You seem to be attaching great physical significance to the coordinate labels. This is not meaningful.

2) Because of (1), you fail to see that what you describe is just because of the expression of the metric in this particular coordinate system. Please try to understand my post #105. That is how this situation would be physically experienced.

3) Take particular note that if you change coordinates to one more natural for this particular observer's world line, you wouln't observe any unusual change in coordinate properties.
 
  • #121
DaleSpam said:
Anamitra, this is completely silly. The fact that we may be surprised about something due to ignorance on the subject is not something new to GR.

If you are ignorant of the metric in some region of spacetime then you are also ignorant of whether or not a given path through that region is timelike or spacelike. Again, a path does not change from timelike to spacelike due to the influence of gravity. If the metric is unknown then so is the nature of the path. In fact, if the metric is unknown then whether or not a given set of coordinates is even valid is also unknown.

DaleSpam said:
Anamitra, this is completely silly. The fact that we may be surprised about something due to ignorance on the subject is not something new to GR.

If you are ignorant of the metric in some region of spacetime then you are also ignorant of whether or not a given path through that region is timelike or spacelike. Again, a path does not change from timelike to spacelike due to the influence of gravity. If the metric is unknown then so is the nature of the path. In fact, if the metric is unknown then whether or not a given set of coordinates is even valid is also unknown.

Lets think of another thought experiment.

We have a timedependent metric surrounding our planet[in curved spacetime].It is known to us.Scientists on the planet have the artificial power to create a gravitational upheaval in two or more different ways . The changed metrics in case of each catastrophe are known to them. They may predict the separation between two future distant events [t1,x1,y1,z1] and [t2,x2,y2,z2] as time like or spacelike or null.


Better still we are predicting two or more types of natural upheavals in terms of gravitational changes. The metrics have been predicted for each case by the scientists. They may predict the separation between two future distant events [t1,x1,y1,z1] and [t2,x2,y2,z2] as time like ,spacelike or null according to which one occurs.

[We may apply different metrics on the same set of coordinate points]
 
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  • #122
I am supposed to receive some special information from a distant spacetime point after 100 years. Due to some gravitational change I get it after 10 years.If the gravitational change did not occur the points [Time after ten years,My location] and the remote spacetime point might have had a spacelike separation.If it occurs the separation might become timelike
 
  • #123
Anamitra said:
Lets think of another thought experiment.

We have a timedependent metric surrounding our planet[in curved spacetime].It is known to us.Scientists on the planet have the artificial power to create a gravitational upheaval in two or more different ways . The changed metrics in case of each catastrophe are known to them. They may predict the separation between two future distant events [t1,x1,y1,z1] and [t2,x2,y2,z2] as time like or spacelike or null.


Better still we are predicting two or more types of natural upheavals in terms of gravitational changes. The metrics have been predicted for each case by the scientists. They may predict the separation between two future distant events [t1,x1,y1,z1] and [t2,x2,y2,z2] as time like ,spacelike or null according to which one occurs.

[We may apply different metrics on the same set of coordinate points]

All this is over-complicated and missing key points. Coordinates have *no* meaning by themselves. They can have meaning only in conjunction with a metric expressed in them (note that the metric itself can be defined without reference to coordinates). In particular, there is no conceivable meaning to talking about different metrics on the same coordinates. If the actual physical situation is unchanged, what you mean is you've changed coordinates producing a changed expression of the metric. If the physical situation is different, then you have different coordinates *and* different metric - you just can't attach meaning to the coordinates in the abstract, separate from the metric.
 
  • #124
Anamitra said:
Lets think of another thought experiment. ...
So what?

If you do not know the metric then you cannot calculate the interval along a path.

If you do not know a ball's mass then you cannot calculate its momentum.

If you do not know how much fuel is in the your automobile then you cannot determine how far you can travel without refueling.

If you don't know how much money is in your bank account then you cannot determine if you can afford a new computer.

Ignorance is annoying. And, yes, you can always change any solvable problem into an unsolvable one simply by reducing the number of knowns and increasing the number of unknowns. But so what?

There is nothing related specifically to GR in this particularly uninteresting line of discussion.
 
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  • #125
Anamitra said:
We are considering a set of time slices corresponding to t1 ,t2,t3...t(n-1),tn [The time coordinates are in increasing order and time remains constant for each slice]
You're not addressing the basic issue I brought up in post #112 (and the one PAllen also discusses in post #123): how do you suppose we can define a "coordinate system" on a region of spacetime where we don't know the metric? You need to specify the details of how this is supposed to work. I did offer one suggestion earlier:
I suppose if you had a family of clocks connected by flexible springs filling space, then you could define a coordinate system where each clock had a constant position coordinate and its reading defined a time coordinate, so then you could talk about coordinates even in regions where you didn't know the metric, and define a "path" in terms of those coordinates...but if you didn't know the metric it's hard to see how you could have much basis for "expecting" that a particular path would be spacelike or timelike (except a special cases like a path of constant position coordinate, which would just be the worldline of some clock and must therefore be timelike)
 
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  • #126
PAllen said:
All this is over-complicated and missing key points. Coordinates have *no* meaning by themselves. They can have meaning only in conjunction with a metric expressed in them (note that the metric itself can be defined without reference to coordinates). In particular, there is no conceivable meaning to talking about different metrics on the same coordinates. If the actual physical situation is unchanged, what you mean is you've changed coordinates producing a changed expression of the metric. If the physical situation is different, then you have different coordinates *and* different metric - you just can't attach meaning to the coordinates in the abstract, separate from the metric.

We can always set up a coordinate system in an arbitrary manner[for example we may think in terms of spherical or rectangular systems as three dimensional time-slices]. Then we can find out metrics that match against the physical aspects of the problem[this should include gravity and perhaps other factors according to the nature of the problem].

The coordinate system is of course arbitrary----it does not have to have a definite physical meaning.But once we use the physical aspects of the problem to impose the metric coefficients on them,the whole thing becomes meaningful.

This in no way serves as any impediment to my suggestions/thought experiments.
 
  • #127
Preparing a coordinate system is like putting /attaching labels.You are not allowed to take off these labels at future points of time.Then you attach metric coefficients according to the physical nature of the problem. If the nature of the problem changes you simply change the metric coefficients[in a consistent way] without disturbing the labels.
 
  • #128
The essential point is to have a meaningful system composed of metrics and coordinates corresponding to some physical system/situation[which includes gravity]. If the physical nature of the problem changes, you simply change the metrics without disturbing the coordinate labels.
 
  • #129
Anamitra said:
Preparing a coordinate system is like putting /attaching labels.You are not allowed to take off these labels at future points of time.
Yes you are. That is called a coordinate transformation and you are allowed to do it as often as you like.
 
  • #130
Anamitra said:
Preparing a coordinate system is like putting /attaching labels.You are not allowed to take off these labels at future points of time.
And how do you "prepare a coordinate system" or "attach labels" to a region of spacetime that's so completely unknown to you that you can't even predict the metric there? What physical features of this unknown region are you attaching the labels to, so that later when you learn about what actual physical events occurred there you have a unique way of determining the coordinates of these events?

As I said before, one option would be to just assume you have an array of clocks which you use to define coordinate times and worldlines of constant coordinate position, and you know the clocks will still be in the unknown region (because they were in its past light cone) though you don't know how they'll behave. But if this is your method, you need to specify that it is since it will have some implications for your later argument...if you can think of some other method, you need to specify that. Right now it seems like you just haven't really given any thought to the problem though.
 
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  • #131
JesseM said:
And how do you "prepare a coordinate system" or "attach labels" to a region of spacetime that's so completely unknown to you that you can't even predict the metric there? What physical features of this unknown region are you attaching the labels to, so that later when you learn about what actual physical events occurred there you have a unique way of determining the coordinates of these events?

As I said before, one option would be to just assume you have an array of clocks which you use to define coordinate times and worldlines of constant coordinate position, and you know the clocks will still be in the unknown region (because they were in its past light cone) though you don't know how they'll behave. But if this is your method, you need to specify that it is since it will have some implications for your later argument...if you can think of some other method, you need to specify that. Right now it seems like you just haven't really given any thought to the problem though.

The process is simple:

Metric coefficients+coordinate system----> Meaningful idea[It corresponds to some physical problem]


You choose any particular problem problem--let us call it "The Initial Problem"
Find out the metric: metric coefficients+coordinates
The above metric should correspond to the physical nature of the problem
If the physical situation changes [ex: a high density erratic mass distribution approaches the system], you simply change the metric coefficients without disturbing the coordinate labels

[Incidentally one could use "flying labels" as coordinates for a stationary system. No harm, so long as the metric coeff+coordinates combination[which we call the metric ] gives us a correct depiction of the physical situation. But calculations might become tedious requiring too much of diligence]
 
  • #132
Anamitra said:
Metric coefficients+coordinate system----> Meaningful idea[It corresponds to some physical problem]
But you were talking about placing coordinates in a region of spacetime where you don't yet know the metric coefficients, right? If so, nothing in your post explains how we are supposed to do that.
 
  • #133
JesseM said:
But you were talking about placing coordinates in a region of spacetime where you don't yet know the metric coefficients, right? If so, nothing in your post explains how we are supposed to do that.

You may go through post #121
You may also go through post #116

We may not always be aware of the metric ahead of us[I mean to say,the future] but we may always speculate that changes might occur----that we might get a time like,space like or null connection in future--there is a glorious uncertainty in the whole aspect of the problem
 
  • #134
Anamitra said:
We can always set up a coordinate system in an arbitrary manner[for example we may think in terms of spherical or rectangular systems as three dimensional time-slices]. Then we can find out metrics that match against the physical aspects of the problem[this should include gravity and perhaps other factors according to the nature of the problem].

The coordinate system is of course arbitrary----it does not have to have a definite physical meaning.But once we use the physical aspects of the problem to impose the metric coefficients on them,the whole thing becomes meaningful.

This in no way serves as any impediment to my suggestions/thought experiments.

JesseM has suggested several times you think about what it means to set up a coordinate system. I doubt I can do better, but I'll try again.

Suppose you want to label an event B 3 units in x direction from event A (events are points in space time; they have no history - they are specific events somewhere, sometime, in the history of the universe). This labeling has no meaning at all until you know the metric and can express it in terms of x and other labels. Depending on how you do this, 3 in x direction can mean 3 hours later on a clock, 3 kilometers east, 3 degrees counterclockwise, whatever. It is only the metric that gives x any meaning at all. If the metric says x direction is timelike, than x has the character of time for some clock; if the metric says it is spacelike, then it is distance for some path of simultaneity.

More naturally, you can set up coordinates by (perhaps idealized) measurements. Then the measurements determing the nature of of the coordinates. Measurements, of course, take full account of the metric. If you define x by a mechanism for measuring distance, it will represent distance no matter where or when in the universe you do it, no matter what the gravitational field.

If you are 'thinking' about the the interval from (t,x)=(5,5) to (5,7), where 5 is in the future, and you have don't know the metric for this region of space *time*, and don't define any measurement you will do,, then you cannot have any expectation of what they mean. I cannot fathom what you mean by 'expecting' a meaning for this separately from a measurement procedure or defining the metric.

Note, if you define this, for example, by saying that when my watch says 3, I will define my spacetime position to be (3,5), then I will send out a rader signal and if I get it back when my watch says 7, (still calling my postion x=5), then the event of its bouncing off something I will label (5,7). Using such a procedure you would know, at all times, and all gravity situations, that you would be defining a spacelike interval between (5,5) and (5,7), and you could call them 2 lightseconds apart (thus calling your watch units seconds, and x unit lightseconds). An observer elsewhere in the universe might disagree radically on how far apart these events were, but they would certainly agree the separation between them was spacelike.
 
  • #135
Anamitra said:
You may go through post #121
You may also go through post #116
Neither post contains any information about what physical procedure we are supposed to use to attach coordinate labels to a region of spacetime where we don't know the metric. Can you please just give a specific answer to this question?
 
  • #136
Anamitra said:
If the physical situation changes [ex: a high density erratic mass distribution approaches the system], you simply change the metric coefficients without disturbing the coordinate labels

Maybe this is the core confusion. What are these labels attached to while you are changing the metric? If they are attached to physical events and measurements, the metric is discovered by these measurements, not the other way around. If they are not, then the only meaning they have is determined by the way the metric is expressed in terms of these labels. Depending on how you change the metric, you may redefine x as time on a clock, distance along a ruler, or angle.
 
  • #137
Maybe I see a way to define what Anamitra is getting at in a sensible way. Suppose you define 'reasanoble coordinate' for observing what you can see in the universe. Specifically, suppose you choose to extend Fermi Normal cordinates as far in distance and time as you reasonably can. You find that out to 10 lightyears, there are no signficant deviations from Lorentz geometry except near your sun and planets. You think you can extend them well into the future because you haven't detected anything that would make this invalid. Then an isolated black hole passes a few light years away. Now you find that doing your best to extend these coordinates (still keeping them Fermi Normal based on your world line as the time axis), you can't avoid varying coordinate speed of light near the black hole; necessarily, this also means that a coordinate path defined e.g. by: ( x - x0) = .5 (t - t0) that is is timelike for t0 before the arrival of the black hole, and for any x0 far from the black hole, now describes a spacelike curve for some x0 and t0.

Of course the only sense in which you can say this is unexpected is that you previously lacked knowledge of the approaching black hole (or you didn't know about GR). So it is strange to call this unexpected. Further, there is, of course, no spactime path that changed nature because of the approaching black hole. The best you could say is that for t0 in your future you made an erroneous guess about the corresponding metric. It was your guess that got corrected, not any spacetime path changing nature.
 
  • #138
When we frame the metrics for a stationary field [eg:Schwarzschild Geometry] we extend the time axis into the distant future expecting nature to be kind towards us[maintaining the stationary nature].Then we have the metrics for the stationary field.In case something happens[some gravitational upheaval] we can maintain our coordinate grid and change the nature of the metrics.We may also think of changed metrics for the future speculating different types of gravitational changes.
This was of course implied in the previous posts
 
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  • #139
Anamitra said:
When we frame the metrics for a stationary field [eg:Schwarzschild Geometry] we extend the time axis into the distant future expecting nature to be kind towards us.
You can only extend it under the assumption that the metric will be stationary (or some other assumption about the metric). If you make this assumption and then say "I wonder whether some point at a future time T and position X will lie on a timelike path from my current position", but then the metric changes contrary to your assumption, how are you supposed to decide what physical event in spacetime actually has coordinates T and X? The labels T and X simply become meaningless if your basis for them was the assumption that the metric would stay stationary when in fact it didn't, you have to construct a new coordinate system if you want to label events in the region of spacetime that didn't match your expectations.
 
  • #140
JesseM said:
You can only extend it under the assumption that the metric will be stationary (or some other assumption about the metric). If you make this assumption and then say "I wonder whether some point at a future time T and position X will lie on a timelike path from my current position", but then the metric changes contrary to your assumption, how are you supposed to decide what physical event in spacetime actually has coordinates T and X? The labels T and X simply become meaningless if your basis for them was the assumption that the metric would stay stationary when in fact it didn't, you have to construct a new coordinate system if you want to label events in the region of spacetime that didn't match your expectations.


Actually I am constructing a new metric with the old coordinate grid[t,x,y,z] and new metric coefficients.
 
  • #141
Anamitra said:
Actually I am constructing a new metric with the old coordinate grid[t,x,y,z] and new metric coefficients.
But the "old coordinate grid" doesn't refer to any unique coordinate system any more, since the physical meaning of the coordinates was dependent on the old metric. There are an infinite number of different ways you could extend the coordinate system in the region with the known (stationary) metric into the new region with a different metric, and depending on how you do it the metric coefficients at each coordinate would be different.

You understand that on the same physical spacetime there can be many different coordinate systems, and the equations expressing the metric coefficients in terms of that coordinate system will be different in each one, right? For example, Schwarzschild coordinates and Kruskal coordinates both cover the same physical spacetime, the nonrotating uncharged Schwarzschild black hole spacetime.
 
  • #142
JesseM said:
But the "old coordinate grid" doesn't refer to any unique coordinate system any more, since the physical meaning of the coordinates was dependent on the old metric. There are an infinite number of different ways you could extend the coordinate system in the region with the known (stationary) metric into the new region with a different metric, and depending on how you do it the metric coefficients at each coordinate would be different.

The metric coefficients together with the coordinates corresponded to the description/attributes of the existing physical system[let us consider a stationary one like the Schwarzschild geometry].We may extend the coordinate system into the future in a manner as if the same stationary description continued into the future. But in effect the physical conditions may change due to gravitational changes.In such a case we maintain the previous coordinate grid and change/adjust the metric coefficients to make the new metric match against the new physical conditions.

[We may think of different coordinate systems with different coefficients describing the same physical conditions at the initial state.We may extrapolate each such system[coordinate grid] into the future--in a manner as if the same physical conditions persisted up to distant future.If there is a gravitational change we simply change the metric coefficients ,keeping the coordinate grid intact.

If some dense body visits the Earth we can always maintain our old t,r,theta,phi system and adjust the metric coefficients to get a metric that best describes the new physical conditions.]

One can ,of course, extend the coordinate system into the future in infinitely possible ways.
But a transformation can always be worked out between your system and the one I would be using according to my procedure.
[The same physical point gets different coordinate descriptions in different frames
Sets of physical points[curves] are described by different coordinates in different coordinate systems.We should keep in our mind the transformation laws--they mean exactly what I have said in the previous line. ]
 
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  • #143
Anamitra said:
In such a case we maintain the previous coordinate grid and change/adjust the metric coefficients to make the new metric match against the new physical conditions.

JeseM and I have told you several times that this operation is undefinable. I think this is a core misunderstanding in this discussion. Try defining *precisely* what you mean by maintaining a coordinate system divorced from a metric, and see where that get's us.
 
  • #144
Anamitra said:
We may extend the coordinate system into the future in a manner as if the same stationary description continued into the future.
Are you claiming that this description defines a unique extension of the coordinate system?
Anamitra said:
One can ,of course, extend the coordinate system into the future in infinitely possible ways.
But a transformation can always be worked out between your system and the one I would be using according to my procedure.
Again, are you claiming that your "procedure" defines a unique extension, such that if we follow it than we don't have to choose between "infinitely possible ways" of extending the coordinate system into the region with the new metric? If so, do you have any clear idea of how to define the procedure for creating such a unique extension in mathematical terms (or give a reference to the literature which shows how to do this), or have you just managed to convince yourself that this is possible using verbal arguments but have not actually worked out the mathematical details?
 
  • #145
Let us take the metric:

{ds}^{2}{=}{g}_{00}{dt}^{2}{-}{g}_{11}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{22}{dy}^{2}{-}{g}_{33}{dz}^{2}

Now the physical situation changes[due to gravitational effects] leading to a new metric. We choose the representation:

{{ds}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{{g}_{00}}^{&#039;}{{dt}^{&#039;}}^{2}{-}{{g}_{11}}^{&#039;}{{dx}^{&#039;}}^{2}{-}{{g}_{22}^{&#039;}}{{dy}^{&#039;}}^{2}{-}{{g}_{33}}^{&#039;}{{dz}^{&#039;}}^{2}

If we choose the transformations:
{t}^{&#039;}{=}{f0{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{x}^{&#039;}{=}{f1{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{y}^{&#039;}{=}{f2{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{z}^{&#039;}{=}{f3{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}

Such that,
{{g}_{00}}^{&#039;}{{dt}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{g}_{00}{f0}{dt}^{2}
{{g}_{11}}^{&#039;}{{dx}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{g}_{11}{f1}{dx}^{2}
{{g}_{22}}^{&#039;}{{dy}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{g}_{22}{f2}{dy}^{2}
{{g}_{33}}^{&#039;}{{dz}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{g}_{33}{f3}{dz}^{2}

Then we may write:
{{ds}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{g}_{00}{f0}{dt}^{2}{-}{g}_{11}{f1}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{22}{f2}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{33}{f3}{dz}^{2}

[(x,y,z) may not be rectangular Cartesian coordinates]
 
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  • #146
We take the metric:

{ds}^{2}{=}{g}_{00}{dt}^{2}{-}{g}_{11}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{22}{dy}^{2}{-}{g}_{33}{dz}^{2}

Now the physical situation changes[due to gravitational effects] leading to a new metric. We choose the representation:

{{ds}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{{g}_{00}}^{&#039;}{dP}^{2}{-}{{g}_{11}}^{&#039;}{dQ}^{2}{-}{{g}_{22}^{&#039;}}{dR}^{2}{-}{{g}_{33}}^{&#039;}{dS}^{2}
P,Q,R,S are the new suitable coordinates
If we choose the transformations:
{P}{=}{f0{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{Q}{=}{f1{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{R}{=}{f2{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{S}{=}{f3{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}

Such that,


{{ds}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{g}_{00}{f0}{dt}^{2}{-}{g}_{11}{f1}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{22}{f2}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{33}{f3}{dz}^{2}

We have the old coordinate system in operation.This seems to provide a greater amount of flexibility.

[(x,y,z) may not be rectangular Cartesian coordinates]
 
  • #147
Anamitra said:
We take the metric:

{ds}^{2}{=}{g}_{00}{dt}^{2}{-}{g}_{11}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{22}{dy}^{2}{-}{g}_{33}{dz}^{2}

Now the physical situation changes[due to gravitational effects] leading to a new metric. We choose the representation:

{{ds}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{{g}_{00}}^{&#039;}{dP}^{2}{-}{{g}_{11}}^{&#039;}{dQ}^{2}{-}{{g}_{22}^{&#039;}}{dR}^{2}{-}{{g}_{33}}^{&#039;}{dS}^{2}
P,Q,R,S are the new suitable coordinates
If we choose the transformations:
{P}{=}{f0{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{Q}{=}{f1{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{R}{=}{f2{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}
{S}{=}{f3{(}{t}{,}{x}{,}{y}{,}{z}{)}

Such that,{{ds}^{&#039;}}^{2}{=}{g}_{00}{f0}{dt}^{2}{-}{g}_{11}{f1}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{22}{f2}{dx}^{2}{-}{g}_{33}{f3}{dz}^{2}

We have the old coordinate system in operation.This seems to provide a greater amount of flexibility.

[(x,y,z) may not be rectangular Cartesian coordinates]

For any given physical situation, there are an infinite number of choices for f0,...f4 that will work (giving different meaning to t,x,y,z).[Imagine there is one; do a coordinate transform; now you have another]. How do you pick which to use? This gets right at why the operation 'preserving coordinates as you change the metric' has no possible meaning.
 
  • #148
We can always use the boundary conditions to sieve out the appropriate solutions.One may assume continuous transformation of the physical situation to make things convenient.
 
  • #149
Anamitra said:
We can always use the boundary conditions to sieve out the appropriate solutions.One may assume continuous transformation of the physical situation to make things convenient.

This would not remove an uncountably infinite set of choices. I believe, instead of the fiction of 'maintaining a coordinate grid' you need to talk about the 'maintaining some operational definition of coordinates'. Please carefully review my post #137. It describes the closest you can get to what you are trying to say.
 
  • #150
A set of differential equations should have a unique solution set corresponding to a given set of boundary conditions. We may try out different techniques--but the aim is to find a solution set that fits into the boundary conditions.If we can do this--the job is done.We can get the correct solution from a set of infinite solutions.
 
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