Can Magnets Really Prevent Car Crashes? Debunking the Myth

[Spikeywan]

No question, I just wanted to share a thought...

I saw a very old episode of Top Gear last night, where he put magnets onto the front of two model cars, and drove them at each other. Because the magnets were orientated so that they would repel, the cars couldn't crash.

This was given as a way of preventing accidents.

However, if this was done with real cars, although the cars wouldn't touch each other, they would sustain just as much damage as if they had hit.

 

[DaveC426913]

You are right, but for the wrong reason.

The concept is seriously flawed. Their magnetic fields do not scale up to the real world.

But your argument about the amount of damage the car would take even if the magnets worked as intended is wrong:

However, if this was done with real cars, although the cars wouldn't touch each other, they would sustain just as much damage as if they had hit.

1] No they would not. Because
a] slowing the car over time, even milliseconds (much longer time than an impact) will dramatically lessen the damage (I can push on a wall and it will resist, but if I apply the same force over a shorter time (say, punch it), the wall will simply fail).
b] the deceleration would be applied to hardpoints on the car (where the magnets are mounted), that are designed to withstand a load. It's equivalent to a shoulder stock for a high-powered rifle.

2] So what? The goal is to prevent damage to the passengers, not the car. The whole point of crumple zones in a car is to let the car take the force and spread it over time (by crumpling). Spreading the deceleration over many milliseconds would dramatically reduce injuries.

 

[mgb_phys]

[PLAIN]http://www.wired.com/news/images/full/fingerball_f.jpg

There is apparently a fad in the piercings world for implanted rare Earth magnets (apart from doing party tricks like picking up ball bearings it supposedly aligns your inner wibble with the cosmic foobar)

Now if more people had these implanted in their hands and head, strong electromagnets could be fitted into the seat headrest and steering wheel so that when the car was running people would be sitting up and looking forward with their hands on the wheel - rather than drinking coffee, texting, searching under the seat for their phone, putting on makeup or turning round to slap the kids in the back seat.

 

[GreatEscapist]

That would be cool, but it would never work. And then, there's the annoyance of having random metals attaching themselves to your car. That would get real old, real fast.
But that's a really cool idea.
And lol to the idea of magnets in the head and hands to stop texting. It would be really useful for teenagers...

 

[xxChrisxx]

a] slowing the car over time, even milliseconds (much longer time than an impact) will dramatically lessen the damage (I can push on a wall and it will resist, but if I apply the same force over a shorter time (say, punch it), the wall will simply fail).

I had to 'LOL' at this "the wall will simply fail".

Dave singlehandedly destroying masonry in the noble pursuit of explaining physics.

 

[DaveC426913]

I had to 'LOL' at this "the wall will simply fail".

Dave singlehandedly destroying masonry in the noble pursuit of explaining physics.

Maybe, instead of me, I should have used Hulk Hogan or Arnie.

(BTW, the image in my head was of a drywall wall...)

 

[M_Navas]

I do not like the idea of using magnets to prevent car crashes, it would just repel the other car forward into another car causing a chain reaction of cars repelling each other...also, this would in no way save the passengers from sustaining damage, it might save the car but based on the laws of inertia the repulsion of the car would have the same effect on the passenger as an actual accident...

One idea I had about magnets in cars was using them to create "hovercrafts" it would not be all that hard really but it would be expensive, you would need super powered magnets (and a lot of them) and a constant electric field to direct the current...having hovercars through this method would nearly eliminate the need for burning fossil fuels due to the loss of friction and how easily the cars would be propelled...its just an idea that could only happen sometime in the future but I think it could be quite practical

 

[DaveC426913]

I do not like the idea of using magnets to prevent car crashes, it would just repel the other car forward into another car causing a chain reaction of cars repelling each other.

You must realize the context in which this happening. An accident is already happening. This is where virtually all the damage - and worse, injury - is going to occur, not in any possible subsequent interaction.

Without exception, the best possible course of action is to
1] prevent the first collision, and if it can not be prevented,
2] minimize the speed of impact, maximize the time, and
3] mitigate the damage in any other ways possible

..also, this would in no way save the passengers from sustaining damage, it might save the car but based on the laws of inertia the repulsion of the car would have the same effect on the passenger as an actual accident...

This is false.

A bumper, and the entire crumple zone of a car - indeed any buffer of any sort - allows the car to spread its decleration (from 60 to 0) over as long a time as possible. i.e lower the gs experienced from (say) thousands of gs to hundreds.

F (the force experienced) is proportional to a (the decleration). Lowering the deceleration (fewer gs) reduces the force to the point where bones don't break and organs don't burst.

That is what reduces the damage.

A magnetic repulsion would (in theory) begin this deceleration while the cars are still a non-zero distance from each other i.e. greater than any physical device attached to either car. Take it to a ridiculous extreme. Say the magnets cause decleration to occur one hundred yards from impact. Now you've simply got a hard-brake. It doesn't have to be a hundred yards though - even a couple of feet can mean the difference between life and death.

 

[xxChrisxx]

Not to appear as though everyone here is trying to just contradict you for the sake of it, but...

I do not like the idea of using magnets to prevent car crashes, it would just repel the other car forward into another car causing a chain reaction of cars repelling each other...also, this would in no way save the passengers from sustaining damage, it might save the car but based on the laws of inertia the repulsion of the car would have the same effect on the passenger as an actual accident...

The effect would not be that pronounced. You can think of it as an invisible inflatable cushion in front of your bumper. If you drove into someone they wouldn't ping off into the car infront, it would simply slow the impact. (post above contains details)

One idea I had about magnets in cars was using them to create "hovercrafts" it would not be all that hard really but it would be expensive, you would need super powered magnets (and a lot of them) and a constant electric field to direct the current...having hovercars through this method would nearly eliminate the need for burning fossil fuels due to the loss of friction and how easily the cars would be propelled...its just an idea that could only happen sometime in the future but I think it could be quite practical

And unfortunately most of the thing stopping the car is not friction (rolling resistance fron the tyres), but drag from air resistance.

 

[DaveC426913]

And unfortunately most of the thing stopping the car is not friction (rolling resistance fron the tyres), but drag from air resistance.

Good point. It would be interesting to compare the power requirements of a hovercraft moving at 60mph with a car moving at 60mph.

 

[Integral]

If the magnets were strong enough to effect a high speed collision they would also prevent you from pulling into a nose to nose parking space. So we would have to redesign most supermarket parking lots. Also if there was any off center component during the collision you would end up spinning both cars so the end result would be that cars would collide at an unpredictable angle, making it even harder to protect the people in the car.

Seems like an overall bad idea.

I guess it would serve to clear all steel parts from the road surface. I can see sending the kids out every night to remove all the nuts and bolts from the front of the car. A muffler may take some real effort. Not to mention the possibility of having to stop while traveling to remove the bigger objects which you would be dragging along with you.

Again Bad idea.

 

[DaveC426913]

If the magnets were strong enough to effect a high speed collision they would also prevent you from pulling into a nose to nose parking space.

You jest.

Nobody was suggesting the magnets would be on all the time.

There are a million ways of faciliating this, but the most obvious might be to have field strength take into account the vehicle's velocity. (max strength on highways, off below 10mph).

 

[DaveC426913]

No, the only real flaw with the idea is the huge power requirement to make a field that extends yards out from both ends of a vehicle.

Loosely, magnetic field strength falls off as the fourth power of the distance. The strength at one foot distance is 1/16th of the force at six inches.

Try this with two magnets: put + to - and then try to hold them a couple of millimetres apart by hand. The reason it is extremely difficult to do is that the field strength ramps up very rapidly, meaning the tiniest movements result in a very large change in field strength. You can't compensate fast enough. The corollary of that is that field strrengths also drops off very rapidly as you move just a few millimetres farther away.

 

[Integral]

You jest.

Nobody was suggesting the magnets would be on all the time.

There are a million ways of faciliating this, but the most obvious might be to have field strength take into account the vehicle's velocity. (max strength on highways, off below 10mph).

Oh, I though you all were somewhat serious. Now you explain to me that you are just kidding. There is no way you can pack enough copper wire in the front of a car or generate the current necessary to do what you want. The only possibility would be permanent magnets.

Do do ANY good you would have to have magnet strength similar similar to a wrecking yard magnet. Look at the current requirements for those.

This is a bad idea, getting worse by the minute.

 

[GreatEscapist]

Wait, wouldn't part of a problem be that your own car parts would, like, get pulled out? The magnet would have to be strong enough to repel cars, so wouldn't that total your car?

 

[DaveC426913]

Oh, I though you all were somewhat serious. Now you explain to me that you are just kidding.

Wait. We have been serious. No one's kidding.

I thought you were joking because your ideas were (no offense) absurd consequences.

I see though, that, with your assumption of permanet magnets, your conclusions are not absurd afterall.

However, I think perm magnets are definitely ruled out, if for no other reasons than the ones you mention.

There is no way you can pack enough copper wire in the front of a car or generate the current necessary to do what you want. The only possibility would be permanent magnets.

Do do ANY good you would have to have magnet strength similar similar to a wrecking yard magnet. Look at the current requirements for those.

Yes, this is what I'm trying to get across.

This is a bad idea, getting worse by the minute.

It is, but not for the reasons everyone (except you and I) think so.

The concept is flawed in practice (we simply cannot make a magnet powerful enough), but it is perfectly sound in theory (a magnet, albeit an implausibly compact and powerful one, could indeed measurably reduce accidents while maintaining the safety of the occupants).
.
.
.

 

[madhatter106]

quick ?, I don't have the field strength needed for such an application but would not the needed field to dissipate that much energy also tear apart the vehicle? I think of those people who shrink coins with magnetic fields. Then what about the EMF wave?

 

[M_Navas]

Okay, this is assuming we are trying to PREVENT an accident from ever happening, but if the affect were to be pronounced like bumper to bumper traffic with some drunk guy not noticing that the cars ahead aren't going very fast, the guy sitting in bumper to bumper traffic is going 4.2 meters per second, the other guy is going 25 meters per second, in order to PREVENT this accident over a magnetic field of X distance, the affect would have to be profound (approximately 31,200 Kilograms m/s of force if both cars weigh 1500 KILOGRAMS) and in fact, ALMOST as bad as the original accident...I had a long drawn out equation to show you but physforum logged me off for some reason and wouldn't resend my info...*sigh*

You also must assume that it would be stopping the car within 3 or so feet, or else you would have to do away with the entire lane system and have it be one lane all the way through because the magnetic field of cars going side by side would repel each other and cause more problems then good...

we cannot assume we know the situation the other person is referring to, but if we were trying to LESSEN an impact then there are more practical ways of doing it that won't affect every aspect of driving, IE a sensor you can turn on and off at will that, upon having an object enter its sensory area deploys an air bag off of the bumper that slows the "infiltrating" object down before impact...

having magnets do the job is a BAD idea

 

[DaveC426913]

Okay, this is assuming we are trying to PREVENT an accident from ever happening, but if the affect were to be pronounced like bumper to bumper traffic with some drunk guy not noticing that the cars ahead aren't going very fast, the guy sitting in bumper to bumper traffic is going 4.2 meters per second,
...
having magnets do the job is a BAD idea

You know, I hadn't thought of that. In heavy high-speed traffic, cars will be pushing off each other like bumper cars. Anytime there is an imbalance in speeds, so that cars don't stay at a constant distance, you would, at best, be nudging the car ahead of you and/or being nudged by the car behind you.

This is extremely dangerous.

 

[GRB 080319B]

Would it be possible to absorb some of the kinetic energy of before impact by using electromagnetic induction? If the colliding system could act like a transducer, could one car convert some of the kinetic energy into electrical energy using some type of solenoid configuration?

 

[DaveC426913]

Would it be possible to absorb some of the kinetic energy of before impact by using electromagnetic induction? If the colliding system could act like a transducer, could one car convert some of the kinetic energy into electrical energy using some type of solenoid configuration?

You want to invent regenerative collisions?

Are we having so many accidents that you figure it's viable to extract energy from them?

 

[russ_watters]

Slight clarification:

a] slowing the car over time, even milliseconds (much longer time than an impact) will dramatically lessen the damage (I can push on a wall and it will resist, but if I apply the same force over a shorter time (say, punch it), the wall will simply fail).[emphasis added]

That should be same impulse (force*time) or momentum change. Obvoiusly, the force of a fast impact is vastly larger than the force of a slow impact. Consider getting hit in the head by a golf ball or nerf football of the same mass - being softer, the nerf football deforms and takes longer to decelerate, reducing the force.

 

[russ_watters]

You know, I hadn't thought of that. In heavy high-speed traffic, cars will be pushing off each other like bumper cars. Anytime there is an imbalance in speeds, so that cars don't stay at a constant distance, you would, at best, be nudging the car ahead of you and/or being nudged by the car behind you.

This is extremely dangerous.

Meh - it would just force you to maintain safe following distance. To be effecive, these magnets would only need to have a substantial effect at a distance of perhaps 5-10 feet.

 

[DaveC426913]

Meh - it would just force you to maintain safe following distance.

I agree. The trouble is, several feet of your car, both in front and behind, are invisible. "Keeping a safe distance" becomes many times harder when you can't tell where your car ends.


You just know that cars are going to be bumping off each other all the time. And that makes a big safety/control hazard.

 

[M_Navas]

You know, I hadn't thought of that. In heavy high-speed traffic, cars will be pushing off each other like bumper cars. Anytime there is an imbalance in speeds, so that cars don't stay at a constant distance, you would, at best, be nudging the car ahead of you and/or being nudged by the car behind you.

Ya and you can't forget about the cars to the sides of you as well, it is not just about maintaining distance from the car ahead of you, but if someone goes to pass you in the lane next to you the magnetic repulsion could push both cars off the road, and you said it best:

This is extremely dangerous.

 

[pallidin]

Ok, my humble thoughts...

"Magnetic Bumpers" would not work in real-life, full-scale vehicles.

Too expensive, the effect is short range, all vehicles would have to be so-equipped, serious added vehicle weight, etc...

The negatives FAR outweigh any positives.

 

[cesiumfrog]

You can think of it as an invisible inflatable cushion in front of your bumper.

Now there's a great idea!

Have additional, external airbags that trigger if the front of the car is a metre from any (excessively) rapidly approaching obstacle (where excessively is defined in relation to the capability of the vehicle's brakes). That sounds trivial to implement, just enhancing a parking range-finding system to account for Doppler effect. Bonus: potential for reduced pedestrian harm. (Potentially reduced panel-beating expenses for both vehicles in rear-end collisions.) What do people think?

 

[M_Navas]

Now there's a great idea!

Have additional, external airbags that trigger if the front of the car is a metre from any (excessively) rapidly approaching obstacle (where excessively is defined in relation to the capability of the vehicle's brakes). That sounds trivial to implement, just enhancing a parking range-finding system to account for Doppler effect. Bonus: potential for reduced pedestrian harm. (Potentially reduced panel-beating expenses for both vehicles in rear-end collisions.) What do people think?

Here is what I posted earlier, it is much more practical then using magnets and would be lower cost as well...

IE a sensor you can turn on and off at will that, upon having an object enter its sensory area deploys an air bag off of the bumper that slows the "infiltrating" object down before impact...

 

[pallidin]

Indeed, a bumper air-bag would be far superior in cost AND effectiveness versus a magnetic arrangement... in my opinion.

 

[Vanadium 50]

I'm trying to imagine parallel parking with such magnets. It would be...exciting.

 

[M_Navas]

I'm trying to imagine parallel parking with such magnets. It would be...exciting.

you just gun it and the other cars will automatically move out of your way :P

 

[cesiumfrog]

you just gun it and the other cars will automatically move out of your way :P

If they're that strong, you're going to have to start worrying about polarity, whether they flip over and attract crushingly. Go with external airbags.

I posted earlier

Might have missed the edit. Anyway, you do want to use doppler range+rate-finders to trigger the external airbag deployment. Not something that depends on being switched on (by a driver whose negligence and human-error is already in issue), and not something triggered solely by range (since unnecessary deployment is expensive: interior airbags already cost ~$2000ea to replace).

External airbags might be the opposite of SUVs: any potential safety improvement is shared with, rather than wholly at the expense of, the other party.

 

[M_Navas]

Nah you did not miss the edit, in the edit I just changed the terminology from CAR to INFILTRATING OBJECT because I realized you wouldn't have to use it for just cars

 

[M_Navas]

also, I am aware there would need to be more factors in the airbag and not just having an object in a sensor but I don't really feel like getting into that lol

and for the doppler it would need to be something relatively sensitive due to cars like the prius not making much sound at all when they drive

 

[GRB 080319B]

You want to invent regenerative collisions?

My question was whether or not it would be physically possible to design such a system; I have no aspirations to invent such a system.

Are we having so many accidents that you figure it's viable to extract energy from them?

My question was whether or not it would be physically possible to design such a system, not whether or not it would be a viable option.

 

[DaveC426913]

You know, I just thought of another giant flaw in the magnetic bumpers concept:

For every repulsive interaction, there is going to be an attractive interaction somewhere else.

Say you give all cars powerful N-poles on their front and rear bumpers. Great. All cars repel each other as long as they are oriented bumper-to-bumper.

But those magnets also have S-poles. One car approaching another from the side will actually be attracted, worsening side-impact accidents!

 

[Hurkyl]

Meh - it would just force you to maintain safe following distance. To be effecive, these magnets would only need to have a substantial effect at a distance of perhaps 5-10 feet.

I agree. The trouble is, several feet of your car, both in front and behind, are invisible. "Keeping a safe distance" becomes many times harder when you can't tell where your car ends.

Even at a paltry 20 MPH, the normal recommended safe distance is what... 60 feet, give or take a couple?

 

[bp_psy]

Are head on collisions that common? I think this would just make other kinds of collisions more probable, especially rear end collisions.

 

[DaveC426913]

I think this would just make other kinds of collisions more probable, especially rear end collisions.

What is "this", and why would it make collisions more common?

 

[Pythagorean]

You know, I just thought of another giant flaw in the magnetic bumpers concept:

For every repulsive interaction, there is going to be an attractive interaction somewhere else.

Say you give all cars powerful N-poles on their front and rear bumpers. Great. All cars repel each other as long as they are oriented bumper-to-bumper.

But those magnets also have S-poles. One car approaching another from the side will actually be attracted, worsening side-impact accidents!

But with a 3D car, you could probably just face all the N-poles out, even on the sides

 

[pallidin]

And the cost to equip ALL cars like this are what?

Also, don't forget that we would also have to replace the iron-pole parking meters, lest we are unduly attracted.
And, how much environmental ferrous waste material do you want to clean off your car bumper each day?

Just a bad idea.

 

[DaveC426913]

And the cost to equip ALL cars like this are what?

Also, don't forget that we would also have to replace the iron-pole parking meters, lest we are unduly attracted.
And, how much environmental ferrous waste material do you want to clean off your car bumper each day?

Just a bad idea.

With all those S-poles - each, powerful enough to deflect other cars at several feet distance - pointed inward, the car will tear itself apart!

 

[ax3111]

I like threads like this, where a sophomore high school student can actually understand what's happening.

What I think could happen is that the magnets can be off all the time when driving, but turn on when the relativistic velocity between the car and another car exceed a certain point. This would cause cars driving on the highway to not be bumping off of each other, and it would also cause cars to not attract each other.

 

[julz]

Bringing this thread up as I had a thought about this.

What if, instead of putting an electro-magnet in front of the car, we put one at the four sides of the car, and kept them off until another car gets too close.
The magnet that would be in the right direction would then be turned on, thus a collision
could happen from almost any direction.
It would be possible to calculate the other car's distance using, for example, a laser.

However, I still think that it might be an unecessary cost and that we'd better think
about computer-driven cars, controlled by a master server. But that's another subject ;)

 

[cesiumfrog]

What if, instead of putting an electro-magnet in front of the car, we put one at the four sides of the car, and kept them off until another car gets too close. [..] However, I still think that it might be an unecessary cost and that we'd better think about computer-driven cars, controlled by a master server. But that's another subject ;)

Even if that could work, it would require the other car to have the same system before it could ever prevent collisions. (External airbags don't have that disadvantage.)

The same goes with controlling cars by a master server: aside from having a single point of (total catastrophic) failure, it implies needing to convert every vehicle simultaneously (and still, how will the central system know whether a kid has run onto the road somewhere). Better to start converting cars bit by bit. Today they already have automatic collision-avoidance breaking, and some cars can automatically lock on to the speed limit (until the driver puts an overriding pressure on one of the pedals). A few not only have parking range-finders but completely automated parking (systems that take complete control of steering and forward/reverse speed with awareness in all directions). Add a system to automatically lock onto the center of the lane unless the driver exerts a little steering pressure to override it. Improve the collision-avoidance detection systems. Start connecting these systems together and to the GPS (at first just to more intelligently predict hazards, later to start automatically leading into traffic turns etc), and later add systems to attempt automatic communication with other vehicles (at first just for better hazard management, although this could also be useful for measuring and routing around traffic congestion, but this potentially permits the same crazy traffic negotiations as a centralised system). So at each stage the vehicles can coexist with human driven vehicles, but eventually will build up the statistics to show that minimising human driver involvement minimises road death tolls.. in time you'll find legislators promoting disallowing manual control on public roads. Then, when your car is no controlled by its occupants, you'll have it drop you off at the door and go park itself, and you'll start to lease it out to work as a taxi while-ever you're in one place for a few hours.. The transport paradigm can shift.

 

[pmcleod]

too bad for anyone with a pacemaker i guess...

 

[lortech]

Everyone,

I Always have had some what of a accurate prediction of future events but often, do not follow up on them. Now the magnet idea would not fly as one user had suggested.

One idea that WILL happen in the future is cars WILL be in constant communication with each other. Each car will know the precise location of the next car via GPS location and through the use of physics and trig formulas built into the car computers of the future, the cars will not collide with each other for example, at a intersection. First generation cars will send visual/audio reports to the driver of a impending crash at a intersection then, its up to the driver to avoid the accident. Next generation, will possibly pulse the brakes and then, apply the brakes to avoid accidents.

All this technology, if proven, will substantially reduce car accidents in the future as long as the rf signals are not jammed or compromised.

The technology to a curtain point, has been proven on US army tanks. The driver of one tank can put the tank into follow me mode, and the tank behind him will follow the lead tank on the same path and spacing.

 

[DaveC426913]

One idea that WILL happen in the future is cars WILL be in constant communication with each other. Each car will know the precise location of the next car via GPS location and through the use of physics and trig formulas built into the car computers of the future, the cars will not collide with each other for example, at a intersection.

True, but...

First generation cars will send visual/audio reports to the driver of a impending crash at a intersection then, its up to the driver to avoid the accident.

This will not happen. By the time a bona fide risk of collision is identified, it is far too late to warn the driver and expect them to do anything about it. Any collision prevention will have to be computer-controlled.

 

[Redbelly98]

too bad for anyone with a pacemaker i guess...

Or a credit card or ATM card. Okay, not as bad as for the pacemaker, but annoying nonetheless.

 

[brookehogan]

it would just repel the other car forward into another car causing a chain reaction of cars repelling each other...also, this would in no way save the passengers from sustaining damage, it might save the car but based on the laws of inertia the repulsion of the car would have the same effect on the passenger as an actual accident...


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